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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Regarding Glorfindel, is it okay if I make a new key for him for his re-embodiment? I was going to just change the wording for the page, and cover tier changes another time, but it's very clear and cut that he's become far stronger.
 
I finished the changes (minus Saruman, whose page is locked, and Eönwë still needs his title to be corrected), I haven't reviewed the descriptions of the pages, and I have further additions I could bring to the table, but I'll bring them up on a later date.
 
I'll be making a blog post sometime with everything accounted for, but for now, I'll be getting the more relevant stuff atm. One thing to note is that there are some feats, such as actually most of Aragorn's physical feats, that I'm not actually sure how much of it is thanks to him, and how much is thanks to his sword, which should scale as significantly above him, I think. Also, the thread is a bit old, so I may not remember the specifics that I know that I had in mind when I first wrote it.

I'll update this in a bit, I oughta do something else rn but believe me, there are many feats to cover yet, and I'll refrain commenting on all things Sauron can do and stick to the AP stuff.

Smaug
Sauron
Thorin (barely any feats but, hey)
Elves in general
Dwarves in general
Hobbits in general
Ents in general
Orcs & monsters in general
 
EliminatorVenom said:
I'll be making a blog post sometime with everything accounted for, but for now, I'll be getting the more relevant stuff atm. One thing to note is that there are some feats, such as actually most of Aragorn's physical feats, that I'm not actually sure how much of it is thanks to him, and how much is thanks to his sword, which should scale as significantly above him, I think. Also, the thread is a bit old, so I may not remember the specifics that I know that I had in mind when I first wrote it.

I'll update this in a bit, I oughta do something else rn but believe me, there are many feats to cover yet, and I'll refrain commenting on all things Sauron can do and stick to the AP stuff.

Smaug
Sauron
Thorin (barely any feats but, hey)
Elves in general
Dwarves in general
Hobbits in general
Ents in general
Orcs & monsters in general
Click to expand...
This is all really good as far as I'm aware, I didn't give as much attention to the races in general so thank you for this.

Minor detail on Sauron however, is that whilst he's undefeatable to the Dwarves as the Necromancer, the White Council outright drove him from Dol Guldur with the "devices of Saruman". Of course he was planning on leaving, but they did force him out.
 
Tyranno223 said:
This is all really good as far as I'm aware, I didn't give as much attention to the races in general so thank you for this.
Click to expand...
There's much more yet to post, I just had to take a break to take care of some stuff.
Tyranno223 said:
Minor detail on Sauron however, is that whilst he's undefeatable to the Dwarves as the Necromancer, the White Council outright drove him from Dol Guldur with the "devices of Saruman". Of course he was planning on leaving, but they did force him out.
Click to expand...
Oh yes, I didn't mention that because my brain farted-

What I meant by that is that Gandalf considered the task of defeating Smaug way more feasible for Bilbo's group, and it was much more important for him to lend his aid against Sauron than it was to help them against Smaug all the way through.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
There's much more yet to post, I just had to take a break to take care of some stuff.

Oh yes, I didn't mention that because my brain farted-

What I meant by that is that Gandalf considered the task of defeating Smaug way more feasible for Bilbo's group, and it was much more important for him to lend his aid against Sauron than it was to help them against Smaug all the way through.
Click to expand...
Do you have some stuff on the Numenoreans and Dunedain? I plan on addressing the higher tiers first, but they're my main interest in the lore, and they have basically no pages (minus Aragorn, and I suppose Faramir and Boromir).

Addendum: The Elves in general, alongside the Numenoreans and their descendants, have telepathic abilities to varying degrees.
 
To be fair, Smaug has a weak point that Sauron lacks, nevermind that his personality is easier to exploit, which might have affected Gandalf's judgement. But I still agree in general.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Saruman's page is locked. For some reason it's called Saruman (Canon), despite being the only version of Saruman on the wiki, and despite being the only page to have (Canon) in it.
Click to expand...
There are two other versions of Saruman in the wiki as well.

Anyway, I have unlocked the page.
 
Armorchompy said:
To be fair, Smaug has a weak point that Sauron lacks, nevermind that his personality is easier to exploit, which might have affected Gandalf's judgement. But I still agree in general.
Click to expand...
Smaug's weak spot was not known in the book until Bilbo discovered it. Although it was generally true that dragons had weaker underbellies in LOTR.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Do you have some stuff on the Numenoreans and Dunedain? I plan on addressing the higher tiers first, but they're my main interest in the lore, and they have basically no pages (minus Aragorn, and I suppose Faramir and Boromir).

Addendum: The Elves in general, alongside the Numenoreans and their descendants, have telepathic abilities to varying degrees.
Click to expand...
A bit. I'll post the rest of the stuff as soon as I can, but there is some stuff about the Rangers and, to a greater extent, about Aragorn, Boromir and some other noteworthy personas. In fact, all members of the Fellowship ought to be more detailed, Legolas has an explicitly faster than eyesight feat (only to draw an arrow from the quiver and load on the bow, but it's still there) that really should be accounted for.

I agree, not only it makes sense but it's even implied in some tidbits I may have scans of.

Armorchompy said:
To be fair, Smaug has a weak point that Sauron lacks, nevermind that his personality is easier to exploit, which might have affected Gandalf's judgement. But I still agree in general.
Click to expand...
Those could be factors for sure, but the way Gandalf speaks about Sauron seems to be way graver than Smaug even from a power-wise standpoint. I'm personally partial to scaling Sauron as being considerably more powerful than Smaug even on his weakened state as the Necromancer.

Also, I wanted to ask you guys about something concerning Gandalf, which should also apply to most wizards. I would need to gather the stuff and lore bits, but I believe he should have a Varies power level, to a maximum of City/Country/whatever is the feat we use to scale him to at maximum, I'd also say a minimum of Street or Wall level but I think he could be lower if he wanted to,

The reason is that the wizards are obliged by function to employ as much power as it is needed to solve the problems around them by the Valar, and more than that, they are forbidden of using that same power to dominate and submit beings. That results in the wizards only being allowed to use a certain amount of power, just enough to avert the crisis they are currently facing. It's the reason why Gandalf, for the most part, is consistently depicted as being Street to Wall-ish level in The Hobbit for most of the journey (even avoiding to face too many orcs at once in the open), but when the situation calls for it, he employs much larger quantities of power. Of course, if a wizard so chooses, he can violate that, as Saruman did, but it has consequences for their diminishing power and circumstance leading to their downfall, as it happened with Saruman.

Sorry for the bad explanation, lol, I'll try to explain it better later when I have time to grab the needed information.
 
Antvasima said:
There are two other versions of Saruman in the wiki as well.

Anyway, I have unlocked the page.
Click to expand...
Ah really, I somehow missed that. Regardless, thank you, and also should the titles for the pages be changed to match Saruman's style? Gandalf and some other book profiles with movie counterparts miss the (Canon) part. Also I'm not actually sure how to change titles for pages.
 
oh my mistake, haven't read the book in a while as i said.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
A bit. I'll post the rest of the stuff as soon as I can, but there is some stuff about the Rangers and, to a greater extent, about Aragorn, Boromir and some other noteworthy personas. In fact, all members of the Fellowship ought to be more detailed, Legolas has an explicitly faster than eyesight feat (only to draw an arrow from the quiver and load on the bow, but it's still there) that really should be accounted for.

I agree, not only it makes sense but it's even implied in some tidbits I may have scans of.


Those could be factors for sure, but the way Gandalf speaks about Sauron seems to be way graver than Smaug even from a power-wise standpoint. I'm personally partial to scaling Sauron as being considerably more powerful than Smaug even on his weakened state as the Necromancer.

Also, I wanted to ask you guys about something concerning Gandalf, which should also apply to most wizards. I would need to gather the stuff and lore bits, but I believe he should have a Varies power level, to a maximum of City/Country/whatever is the feat we use to scale him to at maximum, I'd also say a minimum of Street or Wall level but I think he could be lower if he wanted to,

The reason is that the wizards are obliged by function to employ as much power as it is needed to solve the problems around them by the Valar, and more than that, they are forbidden of using that same power to dominate and submit beings. That results in the wizards only being allowed to use a certain amount of power, just enough to avert the crisis they are currently facing. It's the reason why Gandalf, for the most part, is consistently depicted as being Street to Wall-ish level in The Hobbit for most of the journey (even avoiding to face too many orcs at once in the open), but when the situation calls for it, he employs much larger quantities of power. Of course, if a wizard so chooses, he can violate that, as Saruman did, but it has consequences for their diminishing power and circumstance leading to their downfall, as it happened with Saruman.

Sorry for the bad explanation, lol, I'll try to explain it better later when I have time to grab the needed information.
Click to expand...
Do you mind messaging me some of your ideas? Some of the changes we're suggesting seem to be intertwining.
 
Anyway, big thanks to everybody who are helping out here.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Ah really, I somehow missed that. Regardless, thank you, and also should the titles for the pages be changed to match Saruman's style? Gandalf and some other book profiles with movie counterparts miss the (Canon) part. Also I'm not actually sure how to change titles for pages.
Click to expand...
I am not sure if it is necessary. What is the structure of their current page titles?

Only administrators/sysops and content moderators can change page titles in general, although discussion moderators/thread moderators can also do so for unlocked pages.
 
Antvasima said:
I am not sure if it is necessary. What is the structure of their current page titles?

Only administrators/sysops and content moderators can change page titles in general, although discussion moderators/thread moderators can also do so for unlocked pages.
Click to expand...
Most of the canon profiles simply have the character's name. Only Saruman has the (Canon) in it (unless I missed something, I'm quite tired today).

Also, is it possible for someone to change Ëonwë to Eönwë?
 
Well, maybe I should remove the "(Canon)" part of the title, and just call the page "Saruman" then?
 
Ah bugger, I lost my draft for the top tier revisions. I'll write it out again, but I'll probably release it in parts instead of in one go.
 
Hellbeast said:
Yeah that works
Maybe one part for the Ainur and another for the characters like the Istari?
Click to expand...
Yeah I think I'll be covering the Ainur in a bunch, and then the others like the elves etc.

Regarding the Istari and Sauron however, I think I'll need some other opinions on them.
 
Hellbeast said:
Hmm maybe one for the Valar and one for the Mair then?

Whgat do you have so far for Sauron and co
Click to expand...
In short hand.

He's a greater order Maia
He's superior to Curumo, and Olorin, although for Olorin, I believe there's stuff saying they were originally equal (pre-Ring and other stuff), but I'll have to check my notes.
There are certain Maiar that are almost equal to the Valar in might, although Sauron has anti-feats that may not put him in this category
He's the greatest amongst the named servants of Morgoth, and unlike say Gothmog, he managed to beat an Elvish lord in a 1v1.
Etc...

For the Istari, I have a decent idea of their hierarchy, and their relation to other characters in strength, although someone else wanted to make a point on a possibly varying tier.
 
Thank you very much for helping out. I recommend using the sandbox function and a word processor for preparations of long draft texts.
 
On Morgoth/Melkor
For this part, I'll be covering Morgoth/Melkor on his own. After X amount of time, I'll follow up with a piece on the other Ainur, minus the Istari who I'll either be covering with Sauron, or later on with the Elves, dragons, Nazgul, etc. Afterwards, I might suggest some stuff for new human profiles.

Abilities and stuff I'll discuss at a later date, and I believe a discussion on the nature of certain things in LOTR should be discussed, as making a decision on that alone is something I believe might be a bit beyond me.

Morgoth/Melkor
The profile for Morgoth contains a shocking amount of misinformation, causing it to contain some greatly inflated statistics, here's my little spiel on what's currently wrong with the profile.

NOTE: this is going to be a bit of an admittedly overdetailed post, which admittedly only needs the final point to make my case clear (I did warn you, I'm not good at condensing), but I'm doing it in this way so I can make it clear to even people who haven't read the book, why I'm making my points. Mind, you there are undoubtedly points I've missed, and my biases are likely to peak through in some areas, so let me know if you want some further information on exact portions of the book, as I'll be (mostly) happy to provide quotes

Morgoth/Melkor vs the world? Yeah no.
In his profile's fourth key, Morgoth/Melkor is stated to have outmatched the united might of all the Ainur. However, this is just flat out wrong, as whilst it's true that he seems to have fought the Valar on his own, it's made rather clear that he had aid from his many followers against the forces of the Valar. The, descriptions of the "great hosts of the servants of Melkor" (The Silmarillion, of the Coming of the Elves) and the like, clearly indicate that Melkor had an army to match the "many companions" (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) of the Valar during the wars before the Elves were brought to Valinor.

Indeed, the Silmarillion details how even as far back as the Music of the Ainur, Melkor was being aided by followers who aided him in spreading his discord, and goals of domination.

"... being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren. Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him... some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider... Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm... made war one upon another..."(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) - during the Music of the Ainur

"...But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts" (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Enemies)

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part..." (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Enemies)

Of course it's unlikely any of these Ainu followers were equal to, or comparable to Melkor or the Valar (though not impossible, due to REDACTED), but their existence shows that Melkor wasn't fighting the war on his own against the combined might of the Ainur, as his several of his Ainu followers were considered mighty among those of the ranks of the Maiar, and could have contented with their uncorrupted counterparts.

Does this, however, still make him superior to the combined might of all the Valar, as the profile alternatively claims on his second key? After all, whilst the descriptions around the conflicts between the Valar and Melkor themselves largely imply a struggle in which the servants of the two factions did not interfere, this necessarily mean that Melkor was engaging the Valar as a collective on his own. In fact, the Ainulindalë describes the initial battle in Arda as "the first battle of the Valar with Melkor", with direct references to the conflict, only describing the Valar and Melkor proper as active participants, rather than their proxies, and this conflict is described as the "First War" in which "for long Melkor had the upper hand" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

Does this make the profile correct in saying he was the superior to the combined power of the Valar? Well no, as several factors, which I'll be noting shortly, demonstrate that such is not the case.

Melkor/Morgoth vs the Valar - what type of conflict was it
The second key for Melkor's profile claims that the war between the Valar and himself was one that he was winning outright. Now, whilst this is true, the descriptions for this conflict makes it rather supposable that it was not one in which Melkor had to match or exceed the combined raw power of the Valar.

Indeed, the from what little information we receive regarding the initial conflict, it seems that the war was less one in which the Valar and Melkor (alongside their forces) directly combated one another, but rather one in which X side was trying to see if they could gain supremacy over the other, by shaping the world to match their vision, whilst the opposing side did the same.

"The Valar... built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down..." etc. (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

From this sort of conflict, it would appear evident that Melkor would undoubtedly have the upper hand as stated in the book, as he was the one destroying, as opposed to the Valar who were creating. Indeed, we even see a snippet of what such a conflict would look like in the destruction of the Lamps, which took place after the arrival of Tulkas, and the second retreat of Melkor.

"In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains... since, when the fires were subdued there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-Earth... Varda filled the lamos and Manwë hallowed them... Melkor... assailed the lights... broke their lamps... when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth... Melkor escaped" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

From this we see how Melkor would have the upper hand in this context, as whilst this event takes place after the First War, the example serves to demonstrate why Melkor having the upper hand over the Valar, does not necessarily need to refer to him being superior in a direct sense.

Indeed, if anything the events surrounding this event only make it less likely, he was superior to the Valar as a group.

Melkor/Morgoth vs the Valar - A not so wide gap
But, first it should be admitted that this theory is admittedly not 100% concrete, so let's suppose that my supposition is wrong for this point. As a result, I'll instead defer to the fact that it's made pretty clear that Melkor could not have faced the combined power of the Valar even before the arrival of Tulkas, and even before this technical "First War" conflict (well, first within Arda) with him being made to withdraw by them prior to the entry of the Ainur unto Arda.

"Manwë... called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down... and aided Manwë... there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed..." (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) - NOTE: despite the mention of lesser spirits coming down, the Maiar are only described as joining them on the next page, being referred as the "many companions", (page 11 of my copy) after Melkor had fled. Regardless, only the Valar are mentioned as combating him, making it likely any Maiar that were present, did not participate.

Whilst the description of this initial conflict does not give the impression that the Valar soundly defeated Melkor, the fact he withdrew before them makes it clear that he was not their equal in combat, at least when they worked together.

However, could this still make him comparable to the combined might of the Valar? Well again, the text implies that this doesn't, as Melkor is outright stated to fear various individual members of the Valar.

"Varda... Melkor... hated her, and feared her more than all others..." (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Valar)

"So came Tulkas the Strong... and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter..."

and returning to the Lamps I mentioned earlier, Morgoth only attacked them because Valar were being complacent, and most importantly, because Tulkas was resting.

"...Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed his hour had begun" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

The aftermath of the destruction again shows that Melkor feared to confronting, even individually, with him making note of Manwë and Tulkas in particular.

"...Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days) - regarding Melkor's escape, after his destruction of the Lamps of the Valar, and the marring of Arda

Most importatly however, there remains the outright fact that Melkor outright lost in combat to one of the Valar, with Tulkas beating him in one on one combat, before Melkor had begun to diminish in power (at least noticeably)

"... Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face..." - (The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves) - regarding the finale of the War for The Sake of the Elves, after the armies of Melkor were defeated.

Yeah... incomparably mightier eh... If anything it's made quite clear that he is relatively comparable to the Valar, even if he is notably mightier.

Melkor/Morgoth yet he's somehow the mightiest
Now with all that being said, I would like to make it clear that Melkor/Morgoth is still the strongest of the Ainur (at least initially), even with him fearing various members of the Valar, and being outright defeated by one.

The Silmarillion, after all, does make it exceedingly clear that Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur

"To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren"(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

"Then Ilúvatar spoke 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor...'" (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

...etc, and even as late as the days of Fëanor and his breaking of the peace of Valinor, in which many millennia had passed since the War for The Sake of the Elves (which itself was long after the breaking of the Lamps), with Melkor being imprisoned for nigh 3,000 years before being released, Melkor was still described as the "mightiest of all the dwellers in Eã" (The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils).

The fact that he was defeated in combat by Tulkas does not diminish his status as the mightiest, as whilst Melkor was overall the most power, in regards to physical might, Tulkas was the strongest, and fastest (more on that another time), giving him an advantage in a physical confrontation over Melkor, which is exactly what the fight ended up becoming.

Of course he does eventually become far weaker, to the point that a "mere" Elf can harm him, but it's unknown when his weakening began, as all we're given on the matter is a description from the Foreword of the book "Morgoth's Ring", where Christopher Tolkien references that one of his father's essays described the world/Arda as literally being equivalent to Morgoth's Ring, in the same sense as Sauron's One Ring, only this time, Morgoth only lost power in his endeavour, as he dispersed his power into the world, unlike Sauron who concentrated it.

So what changes?
Well firstly, his fourth key needs to have its 2C removed, as he is no longer stronger than an entire race of low 2C and High 3As.

Moreover, his second key should honestly be removed, as it's completely unknown when Morgoth's weakening became detrimental, and his first key should probably become at least 6B, given that he was harmed by both Fingolfin, and the Great Eagle, Thorondor.

Regarding the matter of whether he should become High 3A likely Low 2C, or remain Low 2C for his fourth key, I'd hold him at low 2C since he did indeed affect the themes on his own, albeit with aid from those swayed, but this can be debated.

I'd also hold off on any actual changes to the tiers until this is all said and done, and with that, I'm going to rest, ciao.
 
Tyranno223 said:
On Morgoth/Melkor
For this part, I'll be covering Morgoth/Melkor on his own. After X amount of time, I'll follow up with a piece on the other Ainur, minus the Istari who I'll either be covering with Sauron, or later on with the Elves, dragons, Nazgul, etc. Afterwards, I might suggest some stuff for new human profiles.

Abilities and stuff I'll discuss at a later date, and I believe a discussion on the nature of certain things in LOTR should be discussed, as making a decision on that alone is something I believe might be a bit beyond me.

Morgoth/Melkor
The profile for Morgoth contains a shocking amount of misinformation, causing it to contain some greatly inflated statistics, here's my little spiel on what's currently wrong with the profile.

NOTE: this is going to be a bit of an admittedly overdetailed post, which admittedly only needs the final point to make my case clear (I did warn you, I'm not good at condensing), but I'm doing it in this way so I can make it clear to even people who haven't read the book, why I'm making my points. Mind, you there are undoubtedly points I've missed, and my biases are likely to peak through in some areas, so let me know if you want some further information on exact portions of the book, as I'll be (mostly) happy to provide quotes

Morgoth/Melkor vs the world? Yeah no.
In his profile's fourth key, Morgoth/Melkor is stated to have outmatched the united might of all the Ainur. However, this is just flat out wrong, as whilst it's true that he seems to have fought the Valar on his own, it's made rather clear that he had aid from his many followers against the forces of the Valar. The, descriptions of the "great hosts of the servants of Melkor" (The Silmarillion, of the Coming of the Elves) and the like, clearly indicate that Melkor had an army to match the "many companions" (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) of the Valar during the wars before the Elves were brought to Valinor.

Indeed, the Silmarillion details how even as far back as the Music of the Ainur, Melkor was being aided by followers who aided him in spreading his discord, and goals of domination.

"... being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren. Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him... some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider... Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm... made war one upon another..."(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) - during the Music of the Ainur

"...But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts" (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Enemies)

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part..." (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Enemies)

Of course it's unlikely any of these Ainu followers were equal to, or comparable to Melkor or the Valar (though not impossible, due to REDACTED), but their existence shows that Melkor wasn't fighting the war on his own against the combined might of the Ainur, as his several of his Ainu followers were considered mighty among those of the ranks of the Maiar, and could have contented with their uncorrupted counterparts.

Does this, however, still make him superior to the combined might of all the Valar, as the profile alternatively claims on his second key? After all, whilst the descriptions around the conflicts between the Valar and Melkor themselves largely imply a struggle in which the servants of the two factions did not interfere, this necessarily mean that Melkor was engaging the Valar as a collective on his own. In fact, the Ainulindalë describes the initial battle in Arda as "the first battle of the Valar with Melkor", with direct references to the conflict, only describing the Valar and Melkor proper as active participants, rather than their proxies, and this conflict is described as the "First War" in which "for long Melkor had the upper hand" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

Does this make the profile correct in saying he was the superior to the combined power of the Valar? Well no, as several factors, which I'll be noting shortly, demonstrate that such is not the case.

Melkor/Morgoth vs the Valar - what type of conflict was it
The second key for Melkor's profile claims that the war between the Valar and himself was one that he was winning outright. Now, whilst this is true, the descriptions for this conflict makes it rather supposable that it was not one in which Melkor had to match or exceed the combined raw power of the Valar.

Indeed, the from what little information we receive regarding the initial conflict, it seems that the war was less one in which the Valar and Melkor (alongside their forces) directly combated one another, but rather one in which X side was trying to see if they could gain supremacy over the other, by shaping the world to match their vision, whilst the opposing side did the same.

"The Valar... built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down..." etc. (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

From this sort of conflict, it would appear evident that Melkor would undoubtedly have the upper hand as stated in the book, as he was the one destroying, as opposed to the Valar who were creating. Indeed, we even see a snippet of what such a conflict would look like in the destruction of the Lamps, which took place after the arrival of Tulkas, and the second retreat of Melkor.

"In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains... since, when the fires were subdued there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-Earth... Varda filled the lamos and Manwë hallowed them... Melkor... assailed the lights... broke their lamps... when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth... Melkor escaped" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

From this we see how Melkor would have the upper hand in this context, as whilst this event takes place after the First War, the example serves to demonstrate why Melkor having the upper hand over the Valar, does not necessarily need to refer to him being superior in a direct sense.

Indeed, if anything the events surrounding this event only make it less likely, he was superior to the Valar as a group.

Melkor/Morgoth vs the Valar - A not so wide gap
But, first it should be admitted that this theory is admittedly not 100% concrete, so let's suppose that my supposition is wrong for this point. As a result, I'll instead defer to the fact that it's made pretty clear that Melkor could not have faced the combined power of the Valar even before the arrival of Tulkas, and even before this technical "First War" conflict (well, first within Arda) with him being made to withdraw by them prior to the entry of the Ainur unto Arda.

"Manwë... called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down... and aided Manwë... there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed..." (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë) - NOTE: despite the mention of lesser spirits coming down, the Maiar are only described as joining them on the next page, being referred as the "many companions", (page 11 of my copy) after Melkor had fled. Regardless, only the Valar are mentioned as combating him, making it likely any Maiar that were present, did not participate.

Whilst the description of this initial conflict does not give the impression that the Valar soundly defeated Melkor, the fact he withdrew before them makes it clear that he was not their equal in combat, at least when they worked together.

However, could this still make him comparable to the combined might of the Valar? Well again, the text implies that this doesn't, as Melkor is outright stated to fear various individual members of the Valar.

"Varda... Melkor... hated her, and feared her more than all others..." (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta - Of the Valar)

"So came Tulkas the Strong... and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter..."

and returning to the Lamps I mentioned earlier, Morgoth only attacked them because Valar were being complacent, and most importantly, because Tulkas was resting.

"...Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed his hour had begun" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

The aftermath of the destruction again shows that Melkor feared to confronting, even individually, with him making note of Manwë and Tulkas in particular.

"...Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas" (The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days) - regarding Melkor's escape, after his destruction of the Lamps of the Valar, and the marring of Arda

Most importatly however, there remains the outright fact that Melkor outright lost in combat to one of the Valar, with Tulkas beating him in one on one combat, before Melkor had begun to diminish in power (at least noticeably)

"... Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face..." - (The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves) - regarding the finale of the War for The Sake of the Elves, after the armies of Melkor were defeated.

Yeah... incomparably mightier eh... If anything it's made quite clear that he is relatively comparable to the Valar, even if he is notably mightier.

Melkor/Morgoth yet he's somehow the mightiest
Now with all that being said, I would like to make it clear that Melkor/Morgoth is still the strongest of the Ainur (at least initially), even with him fearing various members of the Valar, and being outright defeated by one.

The Silmarillion, after all, does make it exceedingly clear that Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur

"To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren"(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

"Then Ilúvatar spoke 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor...'" (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

...etc, and even as late as the days of Fëanor and his breaking of the peace of Valinor, in which many millennia had passed since the War for The Sake of the Elves (which itself was long after the breaking of the Lamps), with Melkor being imprisoned for nigh 3,000 years before being released, Melkor was still described as the "mightiest of all the dwellers in Eã" (The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils).

The fact that he was defeated in combat by Tulkas does not diminish his status as the mightiest, as whilst Melkor was overall the most power, in regards to physical might, Tulkas was the strongest, and fastest (more on that another time), giving him an advantage in a physical confrontation over Melkor, which is exactly what the fight ended up becoming.

Of course he does eventually become far weaker, to the point that a "mere" Elf can harm him, but it's unknown when his weakening began, as all we're given on the matter is a description from the Foreword of the book "Morgoth's Ring", where Christopher Tolkien references that one of his father's essays described the world/Arda as literally being equivalent to Morgoth's Ring, in the same sense as Sauron's One Ring, only this time, Morgoth only lost power in his endeavour, as he dispersed his power into the world, unlike Sauron who concentrated it.

So what changes?
Well firstly, his fourth key needs to have its 2C removed, as he is no longer stronger than an entire race of low 2C and High 3As.

Moreover, his second key should honestly be removed, as it's completely unknown when Morgoth's weakening became detrimental, and his first key should probably become at least 6B, given that he was harmed by both Fingolfin, and the Great Eagle, Thorondor.

Regarding the matter of whether he should become High 3A likely Low 2C, or remain Low 2C for his fourth key, I'd hold him at low 2C since he did indeed affect the themes on his own, albeit with aid from those swayed, but this can be debated.

I'd also hold off on any actual changes to the tiers until this is all said and done, and with that, I'm going to rest, ciao.
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me.

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Zaratthustra @KLOL506 @InfiniteSped @Newendigo @Legion350 @Jasonsith @Hellbeast @Axxtentacle @Mr._Bambu @ShadowWhoWalks @TheMerchant66 @EliminatorVenom

What do you think?
 
Once again, I only watched the LOTR movies and I have not read the books or other side-content minus the games, so asking me for help regarding this revision would be a terrible idea.
 
from what little i know it seems good to me, and if nobody else actually has good knowledge on the subject i guess we just gotta defer to the expert
 
Okay. Thank you for the replies. It is probably fine to apply then, but let's wait a bit for more input to make certain.
 
Yeah I agree, it's true that a bunch of Ainur/Maiar joined Melkor even before the creation if Eä, that's what the Balrogs all were, Maia corrupted by Melkor.
 
Tyranno's points sound good, though I'm unsure how that effects the page outside of scaling justifications
 
Hellbeast said:
Tyranno's points sound good, though I'm unsure how that effects the page outside of scaling justifications
Click to expand...
It'll result in tier changes for Melkor, and the removal of one key, but it won't cause many immediate changes yet, since this is is just part 1 of a multi-part project I have going on. I wanted to bring Morgoth in first to justify some of the changes in scaling, and tiering for the Valar, who in turn change tiers for the Maiar, etc.

Abilities, and stuff will come way later, since that'll require proper in-depth readings of extended materials, like the Letters of Tolkien.

Regarding cosmology... I'm not as confident on that matter, so I'll present what information I can so we can discuss it.
 
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