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Lord of the Rings revisions
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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yeah i feel like that's gonna be a common trend here, same for me
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I believe we should analyze how the cosmology is described by Tolkien, that might give us a good starting point. Vs wiki states that not only did the Valar create the universe, but they all have a great command of it individually and a near total control of it all-together. Tolkien also said the Valar represent their concepts on essentially a universal scale.
This is one good description we have:
Now the Children of Iluvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Iluvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein. But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. - The Silmarillion
Here is the Valar creating everything within Eä aka the Universe
But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Ea there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar. - The Silmarillion
This is one good description we have:
Now the Children of Iluvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Iluvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein. But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. - The Silmarillion
Here is the Valar creating everything within Eä aka the Universe
But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Ea there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar. - The Silmarillion
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It should also be noted, since this is likely to come up, that the Valar do not seem to have been weakened by their entry to Arda, as wbilst they were "contained and bounded in the world", they are not implied to have had their power restrained.
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Bump
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Bump
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Spinosaurus75 was the one who started the thread, but besides him, I'm not sure who else was involved earlier on.
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@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Zaratthustra @KLOL506 @InfiniteSped @Newendigo @Legion350 @Jasonsith @Hellbeast @Axxtentacle @Mr._Bambu @ShadowWhoWalks @TheMerchant66
Your continued help with this thread would be very appreciated.
Your continued help with this thread would be very appreciated.
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likewise, well i've read the lotr and hobbit books but those don't really matter here
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I really miss Azathoth, but he's gone. And LordWhis seemed to have had some knowledge, but he was banned a while back.
It's going to be really difficult to find some Lord of the Rings experts with them away.
It's going to be really difficult to find some Lord of the Rings experts with them away.
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I have the Silmarillion and the Hobbit, I am planning to read them both + Lord of the Rings when I get my hands on em.
Also, would anyone be interested in searching thru the Middle-Earth RPG and making profiles for it? I hear it has good hax and what not and gives even more lore to Tolkiens original stuff, it was made a couple of decades before the 2000s trilogy came out so it was pretty close to the books. I was also thinking of maybe just making everything composite?
Also, would anyone be interested in searching thru the Middle-Earth RPG and making profiles for it? I hear it has good hax and what not and gives even more lore to Tolkiens original stuff, it was made a couple of decades before the 2000s trilogy came out so it was pretty close to the books. I was also thinking of maybe just making everything composite?
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We do not allow composites anymore sadly
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
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Since I've been burned by this before: make absolutely certain it is canon.
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Yes. This is extremely important.
Anyway, thank you very much to everybody who are helping out.
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Out of curiosity can certain changes be made now? Certain wordings on some profiles for instance, are just outright headcanon.
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I'll make a compliation of wording changes when I have time then. It's why I made that previous thread in the first place.
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About this. Did LordWhis really do something bad enough to warrant a permanent ban, or should we let him back to our community?
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Sauron
To begin with, Sauron has never been described as the strongest Maia, and that should be removed from his profile. Instead, it should be noted that he was the "greatest" of Morgoth's named servants in the First Age (thus including Gothmog and Ancalagon), as was said in the Silmarillion (on p.23, the 1st on the "Enemies" section.
Moreover it should added that the creation of the One Ring did enhance his powers, as noted in the Letters of Tolkien, and the actual story itself (the Letters also notably state that taking off the ring doesn't weaken him - "But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'", but that , Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit...)
Eönwë (with mention of Ilmarë)
Again, Sauron was never described as the strongest Maia, so that should be removed here as well, and it should also be noted that Eönwë was never called the strongest Maia. Instead, he alongside Ilmarë were reffered to as "chief" among the named Maiar, and he in particular is described as the "banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda"
Also, regarding the point of Eönwë fighting Morgoth in the speed section, It is worth stating that Tolkien writes Fionwë, later rewritten as Eönwë, as "overthrowing" Morgoth during the final battle against him in the First Age, and despite Christopher Tolkien removing direct reference to this event in the Silmarillion, he shows apparent regret in doing so in the "Peoples of Middle Earth", and Eönwë did still lead the Host of the Valar to war in both it, and the Unfinished Tales, making the event likely canon, although by that point Morgoth was greatly diminished, and was begging for mercy.
(Addendum 2, his name also needs to be corrected on his profile to the one above)
Saruman and Gandalf
Curumo, aka Saruman's true form, is not stated to be stronger than Olorin, Gandalf's true form. It is stated in the Unfinished Tales that Saruman was likely higher in Valinórean stature/ranking, but this is not necessarily a reference to power, and if anything, it is repeatedly hinted that Gandalf was stronger than Saruman in both true form and as Istari, although I'll come to this on another day.
Also worth noting is that Galadriel was never compared to Saruman in power, or vice-versa, and the same is true for Gandalf (addendum, Gandalf is compared to Galadriel indirectly, and this'll be important for a future thing).
Melian
Melian is never called one of the strongest over the Maiar, although she did drive off Ungoliant after the spider was repulsed by the Balrogs.
Durin's Bane
Durin's Bane is never called one of the weakest Balrogs, and fleeing from the mightiest army in existence is not a cause to suppose him to be, as even Sauron, the greatest of Morgoth's servants, begged for pardon to Eönwë, after Morgoth's defeat.
Fëanor
Fëanor is the mightiest of all of the Children of Illúvator, and this includes Glorfindel, who killed a Balrog and became as mighty as one of the Maiar upon returning, Ecthelion who killed Gothmog (although he could not stand up to him in raw power), and Fingolfin who harmed Morgoth.
He therefore not only should get this noted in his profile, but he should get an at least added to his base power (of which I wonder why he has a key with the Silmarills)
Also his weaknesses are confusing, he isn't really mentally unstable, rather his short-temper is his weakness, and what is CIS referring to in this instance?
Glorfindel
Glorfindel not only successfully killed a Balrog, but is also noted to become regarded as an "equal" by the Maiar of Valinor after being reimbodied (in the "Last Writings" section of the "Peoples of Middle Earth"), and he was said to be stronger after returning, thanks to his self-sacrifice.
Also why does his weakness call him "not fully immortal" in Middle Earth? Tolkien's work does not have the Elves slowly die outside of Valinor, they diminish sure, but they never die, and it's claimed that the Elves who remain in and after the Fourth Age became the inspiration for our modern conception of fairies. (not to mention that this is the only profile with this supposed weakness)
Gil-Galad
Gil-Galad did fight Sauron with the One Ring, but Tolkien's letters note "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established." which may imply he was still personally weakened, although it may only refer to his subects.
Also, again Sauron is never stated to be stronger than Eönwë.
Galadriel
Minor detail, but Dol Guldur was not made by Sauron, as it was made by the Silvan Elves, originally being called Amon Lanc, the capital of Oropher's realm (the father of Thranduil), which Sauron took over and fortified after it was abandoned.
Also, it should be noted that the Silmarillion describes Galadriel as the "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" after the death of Gil-Galad, making her potentially above Glorfindel.
To begin with, Sauron has never been described as the strongest Maia, and that should be removed from his profile. Instead, it should be noted that he was the "greatest" of Morgoth's named servants in the First Age (thus including Gothmog and Ancalagon), as was said in the Silmarillion (on p.23, the 1st on the "Enemies" section.
Moreover it should added that the creation of the One Ring did enhance his powers, as noted in the Letters of Tolkien, and the actual story itself (the Letters also notably state that taking off the ring doesn't weaken him - "But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'", but that , Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit...)
Eönwë (with mention of Ilmarë)
Again, Sauron was never described as the strongest Maia, so that should be removed here as well, and it should also be noted that Eönwë was never called the strongest Maia. Instead, he alongside Ilmarë were reffered to as "chief" among the named Maiar, and he in particular is described as the "banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda"
Also, regarding the point of Eönwë fighting Morgoth in the speed section, It is worth stating that Tolkien writes Fionwë, later rewritten as Eönwë, as "overthrowing" Morgoth during the final battle against him in the First Age, and despite Christopher Tolkien removing direct reference to this event in the Silmarillion, he shows apparent regret in doing so in the "Peoples of Middle Earth", and Eönwë did still lead the Host of the Valar to war in both it, and the Unfinished Tales, making the event likely canon, although by that point Morgoth was greatly diminished, and was begging for mercy.
(Addendum 2, his name also needs to be corrected on his profile to the one above)
Saruman and Gandalf
Curumo, aka Saruman's true form, is not stated to be stronger than Olorin, Gandalf's true form. It is stated in the Unfinished Tales that Saruman was likely higher in Valinórean stature/ranking, but this is not necessarily a reference to power, and if anything, it is repeatedly hinted that Gandalf was stronger than Saruman in both true form and as Istari, although I'll come to this on another day.
Also worth noting is that Galadriel was never compared to Saruman in power, or vice-versa, and the same is true for Gandalf (addendum, Gandalf is compared to Galadriel indirectly, and this'll be important for a future thing).
Melian
Melian is never called one of the strongest over the Maiar, although she did drive off Ungoliant after the spider was repulsed by the Balrogs.
Durin's Bane
Durin's Bane is never called one of the weakest Balrogs, and fleeing from the mightiest army in existence is not a cause to suppose him to be, as even Sauron, the greatest of Morgoth's servants, begged for pardon to Eönwë, after Morgoth's defeat.
Fëanor
Fëanor is the mightiest of all of the Children of Illúvator, and this includes Glorfindel, who killed a Balrog and became as mighty as one of the Maiar upon returning, Ecthelion who killed Gothmog (although he could not stand up to him in raw power), and Fingolfin who harmed Morgoth.
He therefore not only should get this noted in his profile, but he should get an at least added to his base power (of which I wonder why he has a key with the Silmarills)
Also his weaknesses are confusing, he isn't really mentally unstable, rather his short-temper is his weakness, and what is CIS referring to in this instance?
Glorfindel
Glorfindel not only successfully killed a Balrog, but is also noted to become regarded as an "equal" by the Maiar of Valinor after being reimbodied (in the "Last Writings" section of the "Peoples of Middle Earth"), and he was said to be stronger after returning, thanks to his self-sacrifice.
Also why does his weakness call him "not fully immortal" in Middle Earth? Tolkien's work does not have the Elves slowly die outside of Valinor, they diminish sure, but they never die, and it's claimed that the Elves who remain in and after the Fourth Age became the inspiration for our modern conception of fairies. (not to mention that this is the only profile with this supposed weakness)
Gil-Galad
Gil-Galad did fight Sauron with the One Ring, but Tolkien's letters note "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established." which may imply he was still personally weakened, although it may only refer to his subects.
Also, again Sauron is never stated to be stronger than Eönwë.
Galadriel
Minor detail, but Dol Guldur was not made by Sauron, as it was made by the Silvan Elves, originally being called Amon Lanc, the capital of Oropher's realm (the father of Thranduil), which Sauron took over and fortified after it was abandoned.
Also, it should be noted that the Silmarillion describes Galadriel as the "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" after the death of Gil-Galad, making her potentially above Glorfindel.
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I have more changes that can be made to other profiles in regards to wording, and extra descriptions, however, these will also potentially require changes in tiering, and as a LOTR fan, it's genuinely frustrating to go through some of these profiles, so I'll come back to this some other time.
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That's very understandable, the verse isn't in the best condition and even I can see that. These changes seem good by the way
Also CIS is "Character Induced Stupidity".
Also CIS is "Character Induced Stupidity".
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Thanks, CIS really shouldn't be on a profile, that's just kinda sloppy.
Also thanks again for the compliment. I might have also missed some minor changes, so I might go back and check the profiles again, before noting the stuff that'll potentially change tiers.
I also found a list of possible abilities that can be added to the profiles as well while I'm at it.
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Also one more thing while I'm at it.
Most people in the LOTR community regard Tolkein Gateway as a far more reliable wiki than the One Wiki to Rule Them All. One Wiki has been known to insert a lot more speculation and headcanon into their articles, though maybe that's changed over the years.
Either way, I'd recommend either replacing the link to the latter wiki with the former, or adding the former as an additional one.
Most people in the LOTR community regard Tolkein Gateway as a far more reliable wiki than the One Wiki to Rule Them All. One Wiki has been known to insert a lot more speculation and headcanon into their articles, though maybe that's changed over the years.
Either way, I'd recommend either replacing the link to the latter wiki with the former, or adding the former as an additional one.
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How do I do that? I don't believe I have permission to edit pages.
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Has an appropriate rating change been decided?
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I don't believe so, a change to wordings has been accepted, but nothing has happened with the ratings yet.
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If some of the pages are locked, somebody should write down a list of the EXACTLY WORDED titles for all of them, so my automated script can unlock them.
I do not think so, but informed suggestions are very welcome.
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Well scrolling back it seems that a volcano calc was already there it just needs to be recalced with the correct size.
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Sauron
Ëonwë (it's not even spelled right)
Ilmarë
Saruman
Gandalf
Melian
Balrogs (Lord of the Rings)
Fëanor
Glorfindel
Gil-galad
Galadriel
Also, while I'm at it, is there anyone here willing to implement the changes I listed above? I can do it if need be, but I'm really bad at condensing information for other people, I tend to write in too much detail and bulk.
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