Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

Yes, that is most certainly going to happen, can you bring your points here by the way, would help a good deal

Sauron being baselessly described as the strongest Maia, when even Eonwe only has the description of "mightiest in arms", which dosen't necessarily mean most powerful.

Saruman, being described as more powerful than Gandalf in his unrestricted form, despite there being no real basis (Gandalf feared Sauron, whilst Saruman didn't, but Saruman has a history of... arrogance to say the least).

Durin's Bane being speculated as the weakest Balrog due to fleeing the War of Wrath, when Sauron, who was the "greatest" of Morgoth's named subordinates, himself begged for pardon, and later fled.

There are likely more, and to be honest, the Ainur in general have a lot of issues in their profiles, what with Melkor being described as single handidly matching all of Valinor, when he already had many fallen Ainur on his side.

 

[Tyranno223]

In particular, this might be a sidetopic for a seperate thread, but Morgoth really shouldn't be placed so far above the rest if the Valar. He quite literally feared various individual members of the Valar, and whilst he was undeniably a coward, and still the strongest amongst the Ainur, he wasn't incomparibly greater.

 

[KieranH10]

Sorry Kieran. Your notification was unnecessary.

lol np

 

[Antvasima]

Tyranno seems to make good points.

Are you willing to read and help out with the rest of our discussion here?

 

[Tyranno223]

Tyranno seems to make good points.

Are you willing to read and help out with the rest of our discussion here?

Me? I'll help out when I have some spare time, but I'm quite sporadic when it comes to my participation here. I'll try and assist where I can, and luckily I own most of the texts related to Tolkein, although they're somewhat scattered around.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Saruman being stronger than Gandalf came from the 1st movie which is not canon to the books; and even so. That was Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White; the latter is far more powerful than the former.

 

[Tyranno223]

Saruman being stronger than Gandalf came from the 1st movie which is not canon to the books; and even so. That was Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White; the latter is far more powerful than the former.

It's not even that, the profile claims unrestricted Saruman (Curumo) is above unrestricted Gandalf (Olorin), when there's no outright statement saying such, and evidence for it goes both ways.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems uncontroversial to adjust then.

It would be useful with adding these types of issues to reference sections in the pages though.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Has a rating been calculated yet?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think so. Help would be appreciated.

 

[TheMerchant66]

At the very least, Smaugs AP is solidly town level from what we know, and Ancalagons fall is accepted here. I was wondering if it were possible to scale Ancalagons hypothetical fire from Smaug using size differences as a way to scale power?

Sauron tanked a lightning blaat from Manwë, that either might actually raise top tier Maiar or debuff the Valar during the 2nd age, while nothing says they got weaker, it might be a logical interpretation we can make.

 

[Hellbeast]

There’s also Carcharoth’s dope feat

 

[DaReaperMan]

There’s also Carcharoth’s dope feat

Such as?

 

[TheMerchant66]

Carcharoth ate a Silmaril and despite the Silmaril being especially dangerous to evil beings, he was withstanding it being burned from the inside out for days. What makes it really impressive is a single Silmaril has the entire power of both of the ancient Trees, these trees a single fruit became the Sun and Moon respectively, and Varda gathered the energy of the Moon tree and threw all the stars that are in the night sky.

A Silmaril can potentially be multi solar system level, but it doesn't seem to jive with the power shown on Arda, not necessarily against it, though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Nice!

 

[Tyranno223]

The Silmarils also notably severely burned Morgoth, albeit a somewhat diminished Morgoth, and gave him agonizing pain for the rest of his life, and he's currently rated in the multi-solar system to multi-galactic range via scaling.

 

[Tyranno223]

At the very least, Smaugs AP is solidly town level from what we know, and Ancalagons fall is accepted here. I was wondering if it were possible to scale Ancalagons hypothetical fire from Smaug using size differences as a way to scale power?

Sauron tanked a lightning blaat from Manwë, that either might actually raise top tier Maiar or debuff the Valar during the 2nd age, while nothing says they got weaker, it might be a logical interpretation we can make.

The lightning of Manwe was more part of a general warning by the Elder King to Numenor, rather than against Sauron. It's highly unlikely it was anything serious (power-wise) especially since the Valar were more willing to lay down their authority to Eru, than directly destroy the Numenoreans.

 

[Hellbeast]

The Silnaril thing

It’d also imply Sauron scales physically to his powers since he physically wrestled Huan who is = Carcharoth

 

[Tyranno223]

The Silmarils aren't exactly always exerting the same degree of heat however. They managed to severely burn Morgoth, and logically should have done far worse to the sons of Feanor if the force was always the same, but it only gave them an agonizing wound, meaning it's unlikely that the Silmarils always give off the same degree of force.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Maybe it has to do with how evil one is rather than raw power, wasn't Hurin fine holding one?

 

[Tyranno223]

Maybe it has to do with how evil one is rather than raw power, wasn't Hurin fine holding one?

It is highly likely that is the case, or at least it is highly likely that there is some hidden requirement, given certain individuals can hold them with no trouble, whilst those that commited evil deeds are greatly harmed by them.

 

[Armorchompy]

If that's the case then I'm not 100% it'd scale to its creation potential- in fact it'd require some proof that it would anyway.

 

[Tyranno223]

If that's the case then I'm not 100% it'd scale to its creation potential- in fact it'd require some proof that it would anyway.

You could argue that it scales to Morgoth's weakened key against particularly evil foes, given how it burned him before he lost the vast majority of his power. However, the effect of the Silmarils obviously varies greatly, and it never seems to perform lethal damage, even with prolonged exposure.

 

[Armorchompy]

No I mean, usually one needs to prove that creation powers scale to AP.

 

[Tyranno223]

No I mean, usually one needs to prove that creation powers scale to AP.

By scaling to Morgoth, it would scale around the same tier as its creation, given that weakened Morgoth still scaled above Varda, who created the stars.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, and how do we know Varda's able to use the same AP he created the stars with in combat?

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, and how do we know Varda's able to use the same AP he created the stars with in combat?

Well the Ainur are described as making the physical universe, although I do not believe their physical forms have any destructive feats beyond the sinking of Beleriand. On the other hand, as spirits they quite literally struggled against each other in the creation of the universe during the great music, as those loyal to Melkor/Morgoth, sung in discourse with those loyal to Eru's vision.

 

[Tyranno223]

I would need to check the Silmarillion itself for precise details however.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's mostly the fact that I believe we no longer assume creation scales to offensive magic without any evidence. But I don't know LOTR well enough to counter you on this.

 

[Tyranno223]

It's mostly the fact that I believe we no longer assume creation scales to offensive magic without any evidence. But I don't know LOTR well enough to counter you on this.

Would you like me to send you some direct quotes? I own a physical copy of the Silmarillion, but I don't have any virtual copies, so I would have to type them up.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure, depends if others believe them to be necessary, I wouldn't want to waste your time without need.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm not sure, depends if others believe them to be necessary, I wouldn't want to waste your time without need.

It wouldn't take too long, the times the power of the physical Ainur is portrayed is rather limited, although I'm pretty poor at summarising, so I'm concerned that it would end up being an exceedingly long post.

I could also post some quotes on the pre-Arda Ainur during the Great Music, if that proves necessary.

 

[Hellbeast]

That’s part of why I brought it up, since Tolkien doesn’t have a lot of great physical showings

 

[Antvasima]

So what changes should be done to the LOTR pages?

 

[Tyranno223]

So what changes should be done to the LOTR pages?

Outside anything that was agreed upon prior to the interim, we seem to be discussing the ratings of the Valar and Silmarils, since apparently creation feats do not necessarily = destructive capabilities anymore.

 

[Tyranno223]

On that note, the Silmarillion does have quite a few feats that can replace the prior ratings for the physical Valar, if the stellar and universe creation feats are rejected for dc.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Your help with making our pages more reliable would be very appreciated.

Here are our current standards for creation feats:

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can somebody list the staff and knowledgeable members who have commented in this thread previously, so I can send notifications to them and ask for their further help?

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Mr._Bambu @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hellbeast @DarkDragonMedeus @InfiniteSped @Legion350 @Armorchompy @DontTalkDT @KieranH10 @Migue79 @ShadowWhoWalks

Remember that I cannot ping these peoles meself

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you. Your help with making our pages more reliable would be very appreciated.

Here are our current standards for creation feats:

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can somebody list the staff and knowledgeable members who have commented in this thread previously, so I can send notifications to them and ask for their further help?

If this is the case, I believe the creation feats might qualify, depending on how LOTR's universe is viewed.

The Sun and Moon for instancs, are quite literally fruits carried by two of the Maiar across the sky albeit very unique fruits, and the star of earendil is actually a Silmaril.

However, Tolkein intended his fiction to be a myth, or past for our modern world, and made efforts to have the world gradually match our modern day, what with Arda being turned from flat to spherical, with Valinor removed from the rest of the world, and nothing is commented on the physical nature of the stars, and outer space other than their creation by Varda, and the Valar.

Edit: the sun and moon are the fruits, but vessels were created to house them, with the moon's vessel described as an "island", whilst the Maia of the sun, Arien, notably outright became a "naked flame" forsaking her body, possibly implying they are the same in appearance and size to our moon and sun, just different in nature, but that can be debated, and I'm not sure how relevant such would even be.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hellbeast @DarkDragonMedeus @InfiniteSped @Legion350 @Armorchompy @DontTalkDT @KieranH10 @Migue79 @ShadowWhoWalks

Would you be willing to help out further in this thread please?