• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Lord of the Rings revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thedent, please stop derailing this thread with nonsense. Otherwise I will soon have to prevent you from posting in this specific thread anymore.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Regarding the Ainur in their origin (The last key for all Valar and Maiar pages) I propose that they receive a Low 1-C tier for the same reasoning Eru gained his. Essentially all the descriptions of the Ainur before entering Eä (and those who did not enter) describe them as existing besides Eru. Eru gained his Low 1-C tier from a R>F existence compared to a Low 2-C universe (and a potentially 2-A multiverse).

The Ainur do not have statements of holding Eä or an equivalent structure in their "thoughts", but they are stated to exist as real beings to an entity who does.

For the Silmarillion, this would be every chapter from before the AINULINDALË chapter. For instance:

"...he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him" - they are besides him and interact with him as real beings (from his perspective).

"Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand...his countenance was stern..." - Eru's form is perceived from the perspective of the Ainur.

Moreover, in the Letters of Tolkien, we see that the Ainur (in their origins) do indeed exist as more "real" to Eru than Eä. For instance:

Letter 200 - regarding Sauron. Key points are highlighted
"According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization." - even after Eru gave it life and made it "real" (from being a song) it remains a subordinate and secondary reality to Eru's own existence and reality. The Ainur in their origin are said to be within Eru's primary reality and entering into this secondary reality. This isn't too relevant as this relationship between Eru and Eä is already established, but it does emphasis that the Ainur also share a similar perspective for Eä.

Moreover, in The Nature of Middle-Earth, the language regarding the entry of the Ainur in Eä is a description of "descent" or entry into a separate thing. The idea of the Ainur entering a lower existence is thus not contradicted. It remains frequent.

"...the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

"The Valar entered into Eä and Time..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: OSANWE-KENTA

Also the concept of descent and departure from Eru is in the Silmarillion - "took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it." (still the AINULINDALË)

This would make the Ainur Low 1-C and Eru would infinitely upscale from them as being the (repeatedly described) omnipotent God of Tolkien's Legendarium. I suppose that would be an "at least" but I'm not sure as Low 1-C has a 6th dimension to it, and this is just 5d.
Click to expand...
@EliminatorVenom @Moonshadow137 @Dinamic8000 @TheMerchant66 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Goodyfresh @Colonel_Krukov @Newendigo @Kaltias @Legion350 @DarkDragonMedeus @InfiniteSped @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @SheevShezarrine @Dread

Whatdo you all think about this?
 
One reference link got butchered as I was attempting to fix it. Can someone else do it for me? I can't edit Locked Profiles.
 
As a basic summary.

Eru = Low 1-C for viewing the LOTR reality as a thought/fiction. This has already been resolved.

Ainur (in their origin) can interact with Eru and exist on his level. They are also described as superior to the LOTR universe.

Ainur = Eru’s level of being "real" compared to the LOTR universe.

Ainur = Low 1-C by association with Eru and Eru infinitely/massively upscales from them.
 
Another point is that Eru himself directly speaks to the Ainur and calls them "mighty" while simply holding Eä (the universe) in his thought/mind.

His interactions with the Ainur is personal (in their origin) while his interactions with the universe are more akin to a writer (or a mysterious force).
 
KLOL506 said:
One reference link got butchered as I was attempting to fix it. Can someone else do it for me? I can't edit Locked Profiles.
Click to expand...
I will unlock the page for you again.
 
Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated. 🙏🙂
 
Antvasima said:
Whatdo you all think about this?
Click to expand...
Once again, i don't have much knowledge of tier 1 qualification. But if it's possible for a being to be low complex multiverse while still being hierarchically inferior to another low 1-C then i think it is okay

Having said that, i really want to remember that using material such The Nature of Middle Earth, even as complementary argument, is highly inadvisable. We are dealing with fragments from different versions of Tolkien's Legenderium that for the most part doesn't represent his final vision showed in The Hobbit/LOTR/The Silmarilion
 
"According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization."
Click to expand...
Under those brackets, is it really canonical or translator notes, or why they are exactly under the brackets? Mind sharing the source.
 
Dinamic8000 said:
Once again, i don't have much knowledge of tier 1 qualification. But if it's possible for a being to be low complex multiverse while still being hierarchically inferior to another low 1-C then i think it is okay

Having said that, i really want to remember that using material such The Nature of Middle Earth, even as complementary argument, is highly inadvisable. We are dealing with fragments from different versions of Tolkien's Legenderium that for the most part doesn't represent his final vision showed in The Hobbit/LOTR/The Silmarilion
Click to expand...
It's a mix of Letters, Silmarillion, etc.

We're going to have to disagree on Notes like Nature. I still stand by using them on their own merit as long as they're the more recent writings and not contradictory to the story.

Trurh be told my approach is

1. LOTR and Hobbit (published works)

2. Letters (Tolkien's direct thoughts)

3. Silmarillion (an edited work ny Christopher, not JRR. HOME notes Christopher made specific choices he regreted in his compilation)

4. NOME and HOME (compiled notes from Christopher and Christopher approved writers/editors)

5. Morgoth's Ring and other old drafts (well actually, I put Morgoth's Ring here but it does contain some outright relevant information. It contains some of Tolkien's final writings on his cosmology and characters. Glorfindel for instance gets a fair bit of clarity which he is lacking without).
 
Last edited:
Dread said:
Under those brackets, is it really canonical or translator notes, or why they are exactly under the brackets? Mind sharing the source.
Click to expand...
The entire italicised section under quotation marks is letter 200 from Tolkien's Letters. A pdf can be easily found online.

The brackets in the quotation are Tolkien's writing within brackets
 
Tyranno223 said:
It's a mix of Letters, Silmarillion, etc.

We're going to have to disagree on Notes like Nature. I still stand by using them on their own merit as long as they're the more recent writings and not contradictory to the story.

Trurh be told my approach is

1. LOTR and Hobbit (published works)

2. Letters (Tolkien's direct thoughts)

3. Silmarillion (an edited work ny Christopher, not JRR. HOME notes Christopher made specific choices he regreted in his compilation)

4. NOME and HOME (compiled notes from Christopher and Christopher approved writers/editors)

5. Morgoth's Ring and other old drafts (well actually, I put Morgoth's Ring here but it does contain some outright relevant information. It contains some of Tolkien's final writings on his cosmology and characters. Glorfindel for instance gets a fair bit of clarity which he is lacking without).
Click to expand...
This approach seems to fit with our general wiki standards.
 
Dread said:
Alright, the scans seem fine, and I don't have an issue with this scaling chain.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

Just to check, but should Eru become an "at least?" He would infinitely scale above the Ainur (or at least be astronomically greater) but I am also aware Low 1-C has two dimensions to it.
 
Isn't this circular scaling though? The Ainur scale to Low 1-C from supposedly being on the same level of existence as Eru, who scales even higher to 1-C for being comparatively "omnipotent" to them, which wouldn't be possible in the first place if they exist on the same level...
 
Antvasima said:
Isn't this circular scaling though? The Ainur scale to Low 1-C from supposedly being on the same level of existence as Eru, who scales even higher to 1-C for being comparatively "omnipotent" to them, which wouldn't be possible in the first place if they exist on the same level...
Click to expand...
Well they'd be in the same tier. Eru is Low 1-C for holding creation as thought or fiction.

The Ainur are described as being seen as real to Eru in comparison, and also have language of superiority to the universe (albeit not enough or a qualitative difference without Eru's own evidence).

The Ainur were already superior to the Low 2-C via their own merit anf are then justified into Low 1-C via Eru and we now learn that Eru is simply higher into the 5d tier due to infinitely being above his creations.

There is also the existence of Tolkien and the other writers in the cosmology as "sub-creators" below Eru. They would already be an example of 5d beings that are below Eru infinitely (although their existence is an awkward one that I'm just bringing up to make a point).
 
I don't think omnipotentce justifies Eru into 6d, so it's not like Eru will jump a tier either.

5d = Eru > 4d structure
Ainur > 4d structure

And the Ainur exist alongside Eru so they are also =5d.

Then it's just a matter of Eru being >infintely Ainur.

They're still within the 5d structure so it's not like anything is contradicted.
 
Last edited:
Hmm. I am not certain, and would prefer input from other staff and knowledgeable members.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Tyranno223
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
5 6 7
Replies
250
Views
20K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
The hunter vs legolas (grace)
Replies
15
Views
745
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Sergeant_Hypocrite
Darkseid VS Sauron
Replies
8
Views
1K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal
2
Replies
79
Views
7K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
  • Locked
Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)
8 9 10
Replies
385
Views
23K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top