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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Also, please stop derailing and spamming posts that I have to delete afterwards. You do not seem sufficiently knowledgeable and experienced to be of help here.
 
Just typing this here to address the idea that Eru "hijacking" Tolkien's work gets him into higher tiers. This interpretation comes from the line in 192 that "The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named". Here it appears that Eru/God took over Tolkien's work, with this post argues that Tolkien/Author is 5d and that Eru should be 6d for being an author above him. However, while Eru/God is the ultimate creator within Tolkien's cosmology, this argument frankly misunderstands the relationship between God and author.

In Tolkien's own words, God, or in this case Eru, is the one and only creator. From this comes creations and sub-creators, wherein creations, like Tolkien himself (within the context of this verse) have created sub-creations like LOTR, becoming sub-creators.

Tolkien is logically below God Almighty, but this does not really have too much of a direct effect as there is no equal language of qualitative transcendence for the relationship between sub-creator and creator. Of course, it might/likely exists in the Catholic context/thought Tolkien was writing in, but using such religious contexts outside of directly mentioned things is not allowed in this wiki, and even mentioned religious contexts seem to be iffy. The most this might get is an "at least" from Eru > sub-creator = 5d > Eä (a 4d universe) and other sub-creations.

Also, in case Omnipotence is brought up as an example of transcendence, being infinitely more powerful than anyone within your tier does not make you a tier higher once it comes to stuff like tier 2 or 1.

See Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"
 
Thank you for helping out.

Do you think that our current version of Eru's page is acceptable, or does it need to be adjusted further in terms of content?

Source references would obviously be highly preferable to add.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out.

Do you think that our current version of Eru's page is acceptable, or does it need to be adjusted further in terms of content?

Source references would obviously be highly preferable to add.
Click to expand...
The tiers and statistics are fine. I do have potential changes to the Ainur that might affect Eru's page, but that will come later (namely potentially 5d Ainur in their origin and immeasurable speed).

His powers and abilities need major revisions, as do all LOTR pages to be frank. As I mentioned earlier in the thread though, I am focusing on statistics before making changes there. From a cursory look Void Manipulation and Existence Erasure are iffy, as the reference to Turin Turambar killing Morgoth comes from Dagor Dagorath, which is a largely abandoned series of events. There is some presence of the events within Tolkien's later works, but its canonicity is largely rendered to an in-universe myth.

Regardless, the abilities would Turin's alone, as I don't believe any version of that tale has Eru specifically empower Turin.
 
Okay. Would you be willing to insert References into Eru's page?
 
Tyranno223 said:
Just typing this here to address the idea that Eru "hijacking" Tolkien's work gets him into higher tiers. This interpretation comes from the line in 192 that "The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named". Here it appears that Eru/God took over Tolkien's work, with this post argues that Tolkien/Author is 5d and that Eru should be 6d for being an author above him. However, while Eru/God is the ultimate creator within Tolkien's cosmology, this argument frankly misunderstands the relationship between God and author.

In Tolkien's own words, God, or in this case Eru, is the one and only creator. From this comes creations and sub-creators, wherein creations, like Tolkien himself (within the context of this verse) have created sub-creations like LOTR, becoming sub-creators.

Tolkien is logically below God Almighty, but this does not really have too much of a direct effect as there is no equal language of qualitative transcendence for the relationship between sub-creator and creator. Of course, it might/likely exists in the Catholic context/thought Tolkien was writing in, but using such religious contexts outside of directly mentioned things is not allowed in this wiki, and even mentioned religious contexts seem to be iffy. The most this might get is an "at least" from Eru > sub-creator = 5d > Eä (a 4d universe) and other sub-creations.

Also, in case Omnipotence is brought up as an example of transcendence, being infinitely more powerful than anyone within your tier does not make you a tier higher once it comes to stuff like tier 2 or 1.

See Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"
Click to expand...
If Eru 6D Automatic = 1-C in the post Eru really should get 1-C not Low 1-C.
 
Btw, all Ainur should accidentally get Higher Dimensional Existence "Viewing reality as a mere drama prior to their descent into it." and the Ainur are not bound at all by Ëa because he lives in timeless halls.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Just typing this here to address the idea that Eru "hijacking" Tolkien's work gets him into higher tiers. This interpretation comes from the line in 192 that "The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named". Here it appears that Eru/God took over Tolkien's work, with this post argues that Tolkien/Author is 5d and that Eru should be 6d for being an author above him. However, while Eru/God is the ultimate creator within Tolkien's cosmology, this argument frankly misunderstands the relationship between God and author.

In Tolkien's own words, God, or in this case Eru, is the one and only creator. From this comes creations and sub-creators, wherein creations, like Tolkien himself (within the context of this verse) have created sub-creations like LOTR, becoming sub-creators.

Tolkien is logically below God Almighty, but this does not really have too much of a direct effect as there is no equal language of qualitative transcendence for the relationship between sub-creator and creator. Of course, it might/likely exists in the Catholic context/thought Tolkien was writing in, but using such religious contexts outside of directly mentioned things is not allowed in this wiki, and even mentioned religious contexts seem to be iffy. The most this might get is an "at least" from Eru > sub-creator = 5d > Eä (a 4d universe) and other sub-creations.

Also, in case Omnipotence is brought up as an example of transcendence, being infinitely more powerful than anyone within your tier does not make you a tier higher once it comes to stuff like tier 2 or 1.

See Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"
Click to expand...
my friend said in reply to his thread post, because he himself wanted to refute.
 
Thedent, please stop posting in this thread. You do not seem knowledgeable enough, and are derailing our progress.
 
Antvasima said:
Thedent, please stop posting in this thread. You do not seem knowledgeable enough, and are derailing our progress.
Click to expand...
Why bro? even though I don't cover all the important knowledge I can help everyone if you don't believe me, how do we do it (Private Debate)
 
Well, I would prefer if only the knowledgeable and experienced members help here, as we made more efficient progress that way.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Just typing this here to address the idea that Eru "hijacking" Tolkien's work gets him into higher tiers. This interpretation comes from the line in 192 that "The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named". Here it appears that Eru/God took over Tolkien's work, with this post argues that Tolkien/Author is 5d and that Eru should be 6d for being an author above him. However, while Eru/God is the ultimate creator within Tolkien's cosmology, this argument frankly misunderstands the relationship between God and author.

In Tolkien's own words, God, or in this case Eru, is the one and only creator. From this comes creations and sub-creators, wherein creations, like Tolkien himself (within the context of this verse) have created sub-creations like LOTR, becoming sub-creators.

Tolkien is logically below God Almighty, but this does not really have too much of a direct effect as there is no equal language of qualitative transcendence for the relationship between sub-creator and creator. Of course, it might/likely exists in the Catholic context/thought Tolkien was writing in, but using such religious contexts outside of directly mentioned things is not allowed in this wiki, and even mentioned religious contexts seem to be iffy. The most this might get is an "at least" from Eru > sub-creator = 5d > Eä (a 4d universe) and other sub-creations.

Also, in case Omnipotence is brought up as an example of transcendence, being infinitely more powerful than anyone within your tier does not make you a tier higher once it comes to stuff like tier 2 or 1.

See Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"
Click to expand...
mate, can you move this refute to my thread, please?. i'll be response that refute later (after my occupation is over), thanks.
 
Pashh said:
mate, can you move this refute to my thread, please?. i'll be response that refute later (after my occupation is over), thanks.
Click to expand...
This is the general revision board. moving threads isn't really going to change much of anything but sure.
 
Antavisma, for the record I'm going to be busy for the week with some stuff, so I'll hopefully have the references done sometime during late next week, or the week after.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Antavisma, for the record I'm going to be busy for the week with some stuff, so I'll hopefully have the references done sometime during late next week, or the week after.
Click to expand...
Okay. No problem. Aside from @TheMerchant66 and @Moonshadow137 , which other knowledgeable members have helped out here previously?
 
Not at the moment as far as I recall, but I might remember wrong.
 
Dread said:
I don't remember this. Mind sharing me the post link?
Click to expand...
There isn't any current revision for the Ainur. There is a potential downgrade from Low 2-C due to their view of the universe as a drama being poetic not literal (although I have a defense for their tier from other materials). There is also a Low 1-C argument I will make.

Edit: There is one now.
 
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Regarding the Ainur in their origin (The last key for all Valar and Maiar pages) I propose that they receive a Low 1-C tier by downscaling from Eru/due to being on the same level of existence as him. Essentially all the descriptions of the Ainur before entering Eä (and those who did not enter) describe them as existing besides Eru. Eru gained his Low 1-C tier from a R>F existence compared to a Low 2-C universe (and a potentially 2-A multiverse).

The Ainur do not have statements of holding Eä or an equivalent structure in their "thoughts", but they are stated to exist as real beings to an entity who does.

For the Silmarillion, this would be every chapter from before the AINULINDALË chapter. For instance:

"...he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him" - they are besides him and interact with him as real beings (from his perspective).

"Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand...his countenance was stern..." - Eru's form is perceived from the perspective of the Ainur.

Moreover, in the Letters of Tolkien, we see that the Ainur (in their origins) do indeed exist as more "real" to Eru than Eä. For instance:

Letter 200 - regarding Sauron. Key points are highlighted
"According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization." - even after Eru gave it life and made it "real" (from being a song) it remains a subordinate and secondary reality to Eru's own existence and reality. The Ainur in their origin are said to be within Eru's primary reality and entering into this secondary reality. This isn't too relevant as this relationship between Eru and Eä is already established, but it does emphasis that the Ainur also share a similar perspective for Eä.


Moreover, in The Nature of Middle-Earth, the language regarding the entry of the Ainur in Eä is a description of "descent" or entry into a separate thing. The idea of the Ainur entering a lower existence is thus not contradicted. It remains frequent.

"...the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

"The Valar entered into Eä and Time..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: OSANWE-KENTA

Also the concept of descent and departure from Eru is in the Silmarillion - "took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it." (still the AINULINDALË)

This would make the Ainur Low 1-C and Eru would infinitely upscale from them as being the (repeatedly described) omnipotent God of Tolkien's Legendarium. I suppose that would be an "at least" but I'm not sure as Low 1-C has a 6th dimension to it, and this is just 5d.
 
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There is also some minor stuff like the Ainur being described as "sub-creators" (which Tolkien uses to describe himself and others writers) in the Letters. But that could just be a literal meaning as sub-creators of the material universe rather than as a "writer".
 
They don't compare to Eru. Low 1-C is a massive tier. Quite literally 2 dimensions. They also don't have any feats for affecting the multiverse beyond seeing it as potentially "not real" in their originally state.
 
I just made this for fun, Eru precedes reality (What is meant is Eä and all existing and non-existent realities), and is a nameless entity whose existence no one can understand and exists outside of duality (Because Eru exists outside the Timeless Halls because he is in a higher realm like Tolkien he can interact with.) created by boundaries, not limited by concepts.
This will make Eru get Nep Type 2 and Transduality Type 2, I think this makes sense.
 
Thedent said:
I just made this for fun, Eru precedes reality (What is meant is Eä and all existing and non-existent realities), and is a nameless entity whose existence no one can understand and exists outside of duality (Because Eru exists outside the Timeless Halls because he is in a higher realm like Tolkien he can interact with.) created by boundaries, not limited by concepts.
This will make Eru get Nep Type 2 and Transduality Type 2, I think this makes sense.
Click to expand...
No, it does not. Show me scans if you don't mind.
 
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