Lord of the Rings revisions

[ImmortalDread]

I dislike using “infinitely stronger Ainur” part. Did it mention or just your interpretation?

 

[Tyranno223]

I dislike using “infinitely stronger Ainur” part. Did it mention or just your interpretation?

It's just an emphasis on how much Eru is above the Ainur.

He is quite literally Tolkien's conception of the omnipotent (within verse) Christian God (still in verse) within his writing (look back at the Eru Low 1-C revision for instance).

It is quite fundamentally part of the Legendarium that Eru is in absolute supremacy to everything else no matter what.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's just an emphasis on how much Eru is above the Ainur.

Please don't use it then, as long as it is not stated, this interpretation is invalid.

He is quite literally Tolkien's conception of the omnipotent (within verse) Christian God (still in verse) within his writing (look back at the Eru Low 1-C revision for instance).

Don't use omnipotent to define the scaling difference, because I could use the former to define the boundless scaling, and yet I have no evidence for this.

It is quite fundamentally part of the Legendarium that Eru is in absolute supremacy to everything else no matter what.

I am aware, but it never stated this, so the claim is false.

 

[Tyranno223]

Please don't use it then, as long as it is not stated, this interpretation is invalid.

It is in verse omnipotence, but okay.

Don't use omnipotent to define the scaling difference, because I could use the former to define the boundless scaling, and yet I have no evidence for this.

Very well. But it is regardless true that nothing in verse could harm Eru even if all the Ainur were in conjuction. I'm currently away from home so I'll find the quotes later.

I am aware, but it never stated this, so the claim is false.

I'm almost certain this is something that is stated. I'll check over my notes once home.

 

[Tyranno223]

Regardless of the exact power relationship between the Ainur and Eru however (still away from my notes) do you still agree with the Low 1-C Ainur Dread?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Very well. But it is regardless true that nothing in verse could harm Eru even if all the Ainur were in conjuction. I'm currently away from home so I'll find the quotes later.

Again, does not imply he is infinitely stronger than them without evidence.

 

[Tyranno223]

So I'll just present how I believe the Low 1-C scaling chain should go (if accepted). The Ainur have more or less been clarified by Tolkien (with some varying notions)

Essentially we have thus far put them as this

Maiar < Greater Maiar =< Valar << Aratar (who have their own internal divisions, i.e: Ulmo < Manwë) < Melkor.

This was resolved in the Ainur revisions some pages back, albeit with some debate over the Greater Maiar and Valar relation.

Eru is naturally > Melkor. This is not a matter of debate. The degree however is.

Eru is God.
This is known and clear. This has obvious implications.

"'There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, or which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures. Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures." - Letter 156

"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*" - Letter 156

"But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story: that is to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle')." - Letter 181

Moreover, I would like to note again that Tolkien does not just have Eru as a "God" stand-in, but outright intends for Eru to be a written version of the Christian God. Thus omnipotent and omniscient (albeit with internal indecision on its logical limits being seen within Tolkien's work) within the cosmology, not merely verse' strongest entity (I know this doesn't change much in wiki, but this gives us the subtext of Eru's absolute supremacy over the verse).

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work..." - Letter 142

However, I will acknowledge that using religious belief in versus boards is awkward. I am just putting this here to remind one of the subtext of Eru/God as being in-verse omnipotent and omniscient. We also have this below, which is not evidence of infinite scaling, but does present an alternative.

Is Eru is superior to the combined might of the Ainur?
This can be assumed and is alluded to by Eru himself. In the AINULINDALË of the Silmarillion for instance, he says this to Melkor.

"Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’" - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

Now Eru is speaking to Melkor before all the Ainur and makes the outright claim that "...no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." Essentially meaning Eru's design cannot be altered by anyone, be it the collective Ainur before him or Melkor. Of course he is speaking to Melkor specifically, but the wording is outright that none only Eru can affect his own design, and this would include the collective Ainur who were present as well.

Indeed, we see the consistency of Eru's invulnerability to all other things in creation across works. No sub-creator (writer) or Ainu can harm Eru collectively or otherwise. See Nature of Middle-Earth for instance.

"Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could... The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: IX: ÓSANWE-KENTA

"...únati ‘a thing impossible to be or to be done’ 212–13." - Nature of Middle-Earth: GLOSSARY AND INDEX OF QUENYA TERMS - (this also emphasises that Eru is able to impose the impossible).

To put it simply, Eru is fundamentally above all the collective beings of the Legendarium. Indeed, even the "sub-creators/writers" of this potentially infinite multiverse of creations are naught compared to Eru (including Tolkien in-verse)

"The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192 with the footnotes noting

" * Actually referred to as 'the One' in App. A III p. 317 1. 20. The Númenóreans (and Elves) were absolute monotheists"

Conclusion

Essentially even if we ignore the subtext of Eru's omnipotence, he is still "invincible" and superior to the collective powers of the Ainur or any sub-creator. Within the (potential) Tier Low 1-C hierarchy of LOTR, he is absolutely supreme.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Conclusion

Essentially even if we ignore the subtext of Eru's omnipotence, he is still "invincible" and superior to the collective powers of the Ainur or any sub-creator. Within the (potential) Tier Low 1-C hierarchy of LOTR, he is absolutely supreme.

Again, I agree with this conclusion, my issue is your assumption that he is infinitely stronger, therefore the scaling chain for “at least” rating. Which I disagree with it.

 

[Tyranno223]

Again, I agree with this conclusion, my issue is your assumption that he is infinitely stronger, therefore the scaling chain for “at least” rating. Which I disagree with it.

Oh I'm fine with that then. I still wanted to make it clear that Eru massively upscales from the Ainur if they do enter Low 1-C. To the point that he is "omnipotent" in-verse.

 

[Experiment12]

I want to ask how to change the name?

 

[TheMerchant66]

Btw, all Ainur should accidentally get Higher Dimensional Existence "Viewing reality as a mere drama prior to their descent into it." and the Ainur are not bound at all by Ëa because he lives in timeless halls.

Just want to say that is is a misinterpretation. What they saw and perceived as a fictional story was the Vision their music initially created. Eru then brought the vision into existence making it as real as the Ainur.

If it means anything when they descended into the Universe they are repeatedly said to be "bounded" by Time implying they should be transcend the Universe in their Ainulindalë forms.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, @TheMerchant66 . So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[ImmortalDread]

At least rating is not really sufficient in my opinion, the gap between both is not much known except one is omnipotent and other is still in his existence plane.

 

[Tyranno223]

Been away for the Christmas break.

Is there any major disagreement about scaling the Ainur to Low 1-C (only in their origin, as they canonically diminish when entering Eä.)

Also, I'm not sure how higher dimensional existence works, but I believe Eru (and the Ainur by proxy) should get it for holding Eä in his thoughts/as fiction.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Besides being in higher dimensions I'm not sure how one can qualify 1-C. Eru does see everything as a story and he does hold all of Eä in his mind and trasncends it infinitely above it and the Ainur.

But again idk if that would make him 1-C or just scaled him super high into the low low 2-C stuff, although I think one could argue the Ainur are low 2-C individually for being above a Space-Time Universe??

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why this makes him 7D? How did you jump from 5D to 7D?

 

[Tyranno223]

Besides being in higher dimensions I'm not sure how one can qualify 1-C. Eru does see everything as a story and he does hold all of Eä in his mind and trasncends it infinitely above it and the Ainur.

But again idk if that would make him 1-C or just scaled him super high into the low low 2-C stuff, although I think one could argue the Ainur are low 2-C individually for being above a Space-Time Universe??

Low 1-C was established due to multiple sources having Eru in a writer role, wherein all of Eä was held within his thoughts alone, aka as equivalent to fiction. This was already established in the arguments prior.

The Ainur exist alongside Eru, and while lacking the same evidence of qualitative superiority to Eä in their independent descriptions, they also get language of being superior to the universe. The two things couple to make a strong case for them scaling to Eru's level of existence (while still being massively weaker obviously.)

And they're just staying at Low 1-C for now at least. I don't believe good evidence has been presented for anythinf higher.

 

[Antvasima]

I am obviously perfectly fine with a Low 1-C Eru, but it seems too high and incoherent for the Ainur to scale from him while at the same time being considered infinitely weaker. My apologies.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Them existing in the same existence plane as the author does not grant anything. Are there any feats @Tyranno223 or this is simply only those statements?

 

[Tyranno223]

Them existing in the same existence plane as the author does not grant anything. Are there any feats @Tyranno223 or this is simply only those statements?

It's not simply them being on the same plane of existence, but due to the descriptions portraying them as comparatively "real" compared to Eä. They exist alongside Eru, can interact with Eru (whereas a 4d universe is mere thought to him) and have their actions perceived as real to him (he reacts to their "music" and speaks directly to them.)

Moreover, the language around their entry portrays the Ainur as superior to the universe (descent/moving from primary reality to secondary).

There is also some additional stuff, with Eru referring to them ss "mighty" and them sharing similar descriptions to those which Tolkien grants to himself and other writers, being described as "sub-creators" (in cosmology, albeit this example is likely literal in meaning).

Also, I'm certain that characters like the Cardinal Archangels of SMT get their (of a dimension higher than characters like Aniel) Low 1-C rating for existing in the "Supreme Angel World."

 

[Tyranno223]

I am obviously perfectly fine with a Low 1-C Eru, but it seems too high and incoherent for the Ainur to scale from him while at the same time being considered infinitely weaker. My apologies.

Like Immortaldread said, they can still be infinitely weaker than him and be Low 1-C, it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Especially as they don't scale to anyone besides each other and Eru in this key.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah I feel strange about the Ainur to Low 1-C, same with Eru but to lesser extents

 

[ImmortalDread]

Btw call me "Dread"

 

[Hellbeast]

Btw call me "Dread"

No

 

[Antvasima]

It's not simply them being on the same plane of existence, but due to the descriptions portraying them as comparatively "real" compared to Eä. They exist alongside Eru, can interact with Eru (whereas a 4d universe is mere thought to him) and have their actions perceived as real to him (he reacts to their "music" and speaks directly to them.)

Moreover, the language around their entry portrays the Ainur as superior to the universe (descent/moving from primary reality to secondary).

There is also some additional stuff, with Eru referring to them ss "mighty" and them sharing similar descriptions to those which Tolkien grants to himself and other writers, being described as "sub-creators" (in cosmology, albeit this example is likely literal in meaning).

Also, I'm certain that characters like the Cardinal Archangels of SMT get their (of a dimension higher than characters like Aniel) Low 1-C rating for existing in the "Supreme Angel World."

Like Immortaldread said, they can still be infinitely weaker than him and be Low 1-C, it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Especially as they don't scale to anyone besides each other and Eru in this key.

Possibly, but it seems too vague and unituitive for our purposes, and if they are infinitely weaker, Eru would not perceive them as having true substance anyway, as far as I am aware.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Antvasima You can be infinitely weaker than Eru and still be low 1-C, since after low 1-C, it is uncountable infinitely. But this is not even my issue for my disagreement here.

There is zero evidence for even scaling to anyone regarding AP, and the only evidences we have is that he is on the same existence plane as Eru and there are no feats for him either. So unless, the same existence plane refers to being in the same role as Eru, then this is a bit of a contradiction since Eru is the only omnipotent/the highest level out of all series and perceives everything as a story for him.

 

[Tyranno223]

@Antvasima You can be infinitely weaker than Eru and still be low 1-C, since after low 1-C, it is uncountable infinitely. But this is not even my issue for my disagreement here.

There is zero evidence for even scaling to anyone regarding AP, and the only evidences we have is that he is on the same existence plane as Eru and there are no feats for him either. So unless, the same existence plane refers to being in the same role as Eru, then this is a bit of a contradiction since Eru is the only omnipotent/the highest level out of all series and perceives everything as a story for him.

Eru specifically views the universe as mere fiction. The Ainur were made before the universe and existed alongside Eru when he created the universe.

The universe was described as a secondary (inferior) reality compared to the primary and realer existence of Eru and the reality he inhabits. There is no contradiction.

The Ainur are specific exceptions to the things he views as mere thought. They interact with and exist alongside Eru. They share in his superiority over the universe. They only diminish after entering Eä and becoming bound to it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So, a teammate of Eru? They can get a likely rating but again, no feats, no AP feats, only statements that they were with Eru.

 

[Tyranno223]

So, a teammate of Eru? They can get a likely rating but again, no feats, no AP feats, only statements that they were with Eru.

Less teammates, more like subordinates (sub-creators is one term used to refer to them, compared to Eru's "creator" title.)

A likely rating was my expected result, so I'm fine with that. They do have two direct direct statements of superiority over the universe but they are not as clear on a "qualitative" advantage as "thought".

If you see above, the descriptions place the primary reality (where the Ainur reside alongside Eru, thus meaning the Low 1-C space of Eru) as the primary one > secondary reality (Eä, aka LOTR), with the Ainur descending out of it.

There is of course the iffy comparison of the Ainur to "writers/sub-creators" like Tolkien (in cosmology).

 

[Antvasima]

So the Ainur would get Low 1-C due to Eä also being as insubstantial as fiction to their true forms (comparable to 5-dimensional existence), and Eru would be yet another degree of infinity above that, which makes him comparable to 6-dimensional existence, which is still Low 1-C according to our Tiering System?

 

[ImmortalDread]

So the Ainur would get Low 1-C due to Eä also being as insubstantial as fiction to their true forms (comparable to 5-dimensional existence), and Eru would be yet another degree of infinity above that, which makes him comparable to 6-dimensional existence, which is still Low 1-C according to our Tiering System?

Nope, I disagree with this. Both are 5D.

 

[ImmortalDread]

One will get a solid rating and others get a likely rating or only possibly rating.

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

Less teammates, more like subordinates (sub-creators is one term used to refer to them, compared to Eru's "creator" title.)

A likely rating was my expected result, so I'm fine with that. They do have two direct direct statements of superiority over the universe but they are not as clear on a "qualitative" advantage as "thought".

If you see above, the descriptions place the primary reality (where the Ainur reside alongside Eru, thus meaning the Low 1-C space of Eru) as the primary one > secondary reality (Eä, aka LOTR), with the Ainur descending out of it.

There is of course the iffy comparison of the Ainur to "writers/sub-creators" like Tolkien (in cosmology).

Hi tyrano, do you have discord? if not can you link your message wall please? i need to ask you something that is related to lord of the rings and its Cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems unwise to allow Discord friend requests from strangers.

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

It seems unwise to allow Discord friend requests from strangers.

It's a doubt about lotr's Cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask him to send you a PM in this forum instead.

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

You can ask him to send you a PM in this forum instead.

You're sure he respond to that?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe, maybe not. It is not up to us to decide for him.

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

Maybe, maybe not. It is not up to us to decide for him.

Hmm interesting

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is actually derailing. We have right now 14 pages and I don't like it to drag further. Please focus on the topic.

@Antvasima I only agree with possibly rating for Ainur since there is no AP feats, no AP statements, only being in the same existence plane as Eru which make it even harder since Eru existence plane is actually author placement, so unless there is absolutely no anti-feats for the story, I only agree with possibly rating.

Apologies