Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

I don’t see the low 1-C, it sounds flowery.
And not enough but I can see a low 2-C

Low 2-C is there regardless as Eru is the creator of the universe and the verse's "omnipotent god".

The statement is flowery, but it is saying something. It basically says that all of creation is sustained by Eru's thought. It's based on a version of Catholic thinking, that God sustains creation in his mind.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Low 2-C is there regardless as Eru is the creator of the universe and the verse's "omnipotent god".

Being omnipotent means nothing in tiering. The way Eru created the universe is at most High 3-A. The reason I agreed to the low 2-C, is due to the ontological difference he holds over creation

The statement is flowery, but it is saying something. It basically says that all of creation is sustained by Eru's thought. It's based on a version of Catholic thinking, that God sustains creation in his mind.

Still not low 1-c but low 2-c

 

[Tyranno223]

Being omnipotent means nothing in tiering. The way Eru created the universe is at most High 3-A. The reason I agreed to the low 2-C, is due to the ontological difference he holds over creation

Still not low 1-c but low 2-c

I know it doesn't mean anything for tiering itself, but for the verse he created a universal space-time. And as the verse's omnipotent being, he can easily destroy it, hence Low 2-C. Also, just to be clear, where does High 3-A come from?

Really? I heard that Low 1-C could come from viewing a Low 2-C creation as a mere thought. If so, never mind.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I know it doesn't mean anything for tiering itself, but for the verse he created a universal space-time. And as the verse's omnipotent being, he can easily destroy it, hence Low 2-C. Also, just to be clear, where does High 3-A come from?

Really? I heard that Low 1-C could come from viewing a Low 2-C creation as a mere thought. If so, never mind.

He sees the beings he created which are 3-D as fiction.
He created a universe, not the entire timeline.
the universe is infinite in size thats where the High 3-A comes from

 

[Tyranno223]

He sees the beings he created which are 3-D as fiction.
He created a universe, not the entire timeline.
the universe is infinite in size thats where the High 3-A comes from

The Ainur are 4d, they exist above and beyond time and reality (I'll make a further point on this later) and they are as much of his thoughts as the universe himself.

He created a timeline, the creation stories specifically mention time and space. If you'd like I can provide a few quotes, but it's gonna take some time. (Page 6 or 7 might have them already). Regardless, by the time of the main stories, the universe has a space-time, and Eru, who can fundamentally do anything within the story, should be able to unmake it.

Thank you, but is indefinite = infinity? I believed that indefinite meant unknown.

 

[KingPin0422]

Basically, should we upgrade Eru Ilúvatar to Low 1-C?

I'll have to give the evidence a look later, but I have heard about the idea of tier 1 Eru from a friend before, at least.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The Ainur are 4d, they exist above and beyond time and reality (I'll make a further point on this later) and they are as much of his thoughts as the universe himself.

Scan that they are just a thought to Eru. I mean the Ainur

He created a timeline, the creation stories specifically mention time and space. If you'd like I can provide a few quotes, but it's gonna take some time. (Page 6 or 7 might have them already). Regardless, by the time of the main stories, the universe has a space-time, and Eru, who can fundamentally do anything within the story, should be able to unmake it.

This would still be 4D

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that we usually treat a legitimate qualitative reality > fiction transcendence over a Low 2-C universal continuum as an automatic qualifier for at least Low 1-C.

 

[Tyranno223]

Scan that they are just a thought to Eru. I mean the Ainur

Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

Wording wise, they are offspring of Eru's thought, thus Eru's thoughts given life. They can do nothing that Eru himself does not permit, not even Melkor, with Eru saying "‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.

Moreover, other writings imply that, while the Ainur are "independent beings" with a free will, they are in many ways also extensions of Eru's mind. However, this is less certain.

"But it is also used more vaguely of things arising in the mind or entering the mind (sanar) which the Eldar regarded as sometimes the result of deep reflection (often proceeding in sleep) and sometimes of actual messages or influences on the mind – from other minds, including the greater minds of the Valar and so indirectly from Eru." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Notes on Órë

This would still be 4D

That's pretty much what I was trying to make clear. The universe Eru created in Low 2-C, and said universe is sustained in his thoughts. Hence a 4d creation is sustained/created as thought

 

[Antvasima]

I'll have to give the evidence a look later, but I have heard about the idea of tier 1 Eru from a friend before, at least.

Thank you very much for helping out.

Also, my apologies for the delays in your promotion. You ended up being the only member who simultaneously was accepted by our staff and wanted a staff position yourself, so we are considering to do another staff survey with other candidates to not only appoint a single member in a highlighted thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

Wording wise, they are offspring of Eru's thought, thus Eru's thoughts given life. They can do nothing that Eru himself does not permit, not even Melkor, with Eru saying ""

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.

Moreover, other writings imply that, while the Ainur are "independent beings" with a free will, they are in many ways also extensions of Eru's mind. However, this is less certain.

"But it is also used more vaguely of things arising in the mind or entering the mind (sanar) which the Eldar regarded as sometimes the result of deep reflection (often proceeding in sleep) and sometimes of actual messages or influences on the mind – from other minds, including the greater minds of the Valar and so indirectly from Eru." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Notes on Órë


That's pretty much what I was trying to make clear. The universe Eru created in Low 2-C, and said universe is sustained in his thoughts. Hence a 4d creation is sustained/created as thought

Yes, it seems like Low 1-C to me at least.

 

[Tyranno223]

On a sidenote, Tolkien's conception of Eru as author seems to go a step further than I realised.

He wrote this in Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"

Essentially, Tolkien defends his non-orthodox (Catholic) writing (thus the world of the Legendarium) as an exploration of the infinite potential of his conception of the Christian God.

His letters also repeatedly equate Eru with the Christian God.

"So God and the 'angelic' gods..."

"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God"

"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*"
- Letter 156

Now, while I'm not going to get too far into this debate (as a Christian myself, I know delving too deep into this for a vs board is just asking for trouble). It is possible that Thedent had a point with a potentially 2-A conception of Eru.

I am NOT asserting this claim yet (moreover, it's unnecessary if Low 1-C goes through, although it might add weight), but I will look further into this, as this is an angle I have not considered before.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for researching evidence for this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Low 1-C is fine based on what was sent above

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you very much for researching evidence for this.

No problem, I was planning on doing some today anyway, althought it was for the Ainur and Elves rather than Eru.

 

[Antvasima]

Low 1-C is fine based on what was sent above

Thank you for helping out. It is best if we wait for KingPin0422 as well though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I see reasoning for 2-A, but sustaining creation through existence is still not enough to warrant a Low 1-C rating in my view.

 

[Hellbeast]

Potentially. There is a lot of wording about the Ainur being above time and reality in their origin, but I'll have to go over it to see if it justifies keeping Low 2-C. There's also some specific wording that says the Ainur became bound to the confines of the world in regard to their power (alongside their person), which would also potentially keep them at that tier.

Also, the moving thing? I'm too sure what that’s referring to, but if you're talking about the star and moon moving thing from Death Battle, we don't use them as far I know.

I’m referring to them reaching infinite speeds by discarding their flesh

 

[Tyranno223]

I’m referring to them reaching infinite speeds by discarding their flesh

Oh that. I completely disagree with Death Battle on that. In their defence, teleportation, while not present in canon Tolkien, was a thing that existed in their composite of games, movies, etc (Shadow of War for instance).

However, we have descriptions of Sauron passing over the seas from Numenor as a spirit, with other Ainur doing the same from Middle-Earth to Valinor, or from outside Eä into Eä. This implies spirits move in some capacity, rather than teleport everywhere.

Moreover, the wording does not imply teleportation, with "passed" implying there was a point where they went over the sea rather than blipped.

 

[Experiment12]

Oh that. I completely disagree with Death Battle on that. In their defence, teleportation, while not present in canon Tolkien, was a thing that existed in their composite of games, movies, etc (Shadow of War for instance).

Aside from that, we have descriptions of Sauron passing over the seas from Numenor as a spirit, with other Ainur doing the same from Middle-Earth to Valinor. This implies spirits move in some capacity, rather than teleport everywhere.

Sorry if I interfere, Eru Ilúvatar actually has a 5-D existence that transcends space and time as well as all creation including Eä which has a 4-D structure maybe in the thought of this death battle can't but some people accept it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Basically, should we upgrade Eru Ilúvatar to Low 1-C?

Low 1-C seems fine. From the tiering system FAQ, he exists in a higher plane where his creation is unreality to him, from the evidences:

• They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I see reasoning for 2-A, but sustaining creation through existence is still not enough to warrant a Low 1-C rating in my view.

Put it this way, the Ainur holds ontological difference over a 3-D world, and he holds an ontological difference over the Ainur as they are simply his thoughts.
That’s 5-D.

 

[Arceus0x]

Lewis and Tolkien both having tier 1 verses would be amazing

 

[Experiment12]

The reason why Eru Ilúvatar 5-D. Structure 2A is accommodated by something that is at least 4x bigger than 2A, and this Structural is accommodated again by something called Void.

 

[Arceus0x]

Btw the title of this CRT is the biggest lie ever

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Btw the title of this CRT is the biggest lie ever

It was originally a downgrade cuz the profiles had barely if any scans and info. But with help from Tyranno and TheMerchant discussing and bringing in scans for a couple of months, it ended up becoming a general revision.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The reason why Eru Ilúvatar 5-D. Structure 2A is accommodated by something that is at least 4x bigger than 2A, and this Structural is accommodated again by something called Void.

4X 2-A is still 2-A

 

[Experiment12]

So for the moderators, how do we vote for Eru Ilúvatar Low 1-C or 2-A

 

[Sniper670]

2-A, likely Low 1-C

Or full on Low 1-C

 

[ImmortalDread]

I personally think that we usually treat a legitimate qualitative reality > fiction transcendence over a Low 2-C universal continuum as an automatic qualifier for at least Low 1-C.

This is accurate, but what current information do we have? It is likely lost in track with this amount of comments, I want to check as well and give my opinion.

 

[Experiment12]

This is accurate, but what current information do we have? It is likely lost in track with this amount of comments, I want to check as well and give my opinion.

Sorry if I replied maybe you can see the message above is enough to give Eru Ilúvatar Tier At least 2-A, Likely Low 1-C

 

[Qawsedf234]

Put it this way, the Ainur holds ontological difference over a 3-D world, and he holds an ontological difference over the Ainur as they are simply his thoughts.
That’s 5-D.

Ontological just means that A relies on B to exist. That doesn't have anything to do with being Low 1-C. A higher level of Tier 2 can accommodate a bunch of High 3-As or Low 2-Cs.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally agree with Elizhaa and Pain_to12 in this case. Having a qualitative reality > fiction superiority over the entire LotR reality definitely seems like a qualification for Low 1-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw the title of this CRT is the biggest lie ever

I can change the title to a more general "Lord of the Rings revisions" wording instead if that is acceptable.

 

[Arceus0x]

I can change the title to a more general "Lord of the Rings revisions" wording instead if that is acceptable.

nah leave it its funny

 

[Experiment12]

I personally agree with Elizhaa and Pain_to12 in this case. Having a qualitative reality > fiction superiority over the entire LotR reality definitely seems like a qualification for Low 1-C.

So how do we agree to Eru upgrade Low 1-C, if I agree

 

[Antvasima]

nah leave it its funny

I think that we will get more knowledgeable contributors if we provide more accurate/specific information in this regard.

 

[Tyranno223]

Personally the name change would be handy. While it is funny, the current name is also innacurate for the direction of the thread.

 

[Experiment12]

Personally the name change would be handy. While it is funny, the current name is also innacurate for the direction of the thread.

What do you think, does Eru deserve Low 1-C or 2-A

 

[Tyranno223]

What do you think, does Eru deserve Low 1-C or 2-A

My opinion won't matter too much given I'm not a knowledgeable member on anything above tier 2, but I'm pretty convinced by tier Low 1-C

Again, I'm against the presented arguments for 2-A, although I'm looking into it myself.