Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

Which members have thought what here so far regarding our current Eru revision?

Agree:
Pain_to12 (however, this was based on the Ainur being Eru's thoughts, which was refuted)
Elizhaa

Disagree:
Qawsedf234 (they have not responded to my last response to them)

Others:
Jasonsith commented, but did not make a final judgement

Dread approves as long as r>f is quantitatively proven superior to either Low 2-C or 2-A

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I also agree with Low 1-C for Eru.

@Qawsedf234

Have you reconsidered your opposition to upgrading Eru, or should I call for more staff members here in lack of better options?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Tyranno223, can you write down sufficiently thorough explanations for all the current unrefuted arguments and evidence for upgrading Eru to Low 1-C please?

 

[Tyranno223]

Eru holding Eä (The universe) in his thoughts/mind
"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."

"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA

Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.

Note 2: To make it clear, the universe is a 4d structure, with time and space repeatedly being mentioned in reference to it. For instance, the quote below

"...on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space." - Letter 328

"The Valar entered into Eä and Time..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: OSANWE-KENTA

"...the Elves would have said, to have passed with free will out of the physical world and time (the circles of the world)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: NOTES ON ÓRË

"When Eru gave being to this design, in general and particular, and it became Eä, unfolding in Time, He set in motion life and growth, or those processes which would in time lead to this. But when he permitted the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

Also, the phrasing "Eä and Time..." does not mean the two are separate. Both the physical world and time are part of the universe, Eä, as seen in both Letter 328, their coupling under the circles of the world (world being universe), etc. This case is purely wording.

Eru exists in a higher state of reality
"...that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'." - Letter 200

Note: This is consistent with wording which describes the Ainur as entering from a higher reality into the universe, given that they resided with Eru in the beginning

"...the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

Eru as author
"No, Frodo 'failed'. It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistible by incarnate creatures, however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us." - Letter 191

"But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story: that is to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle')." - Letter 181


"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God..."
+
"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*" - Letter 156

This is both a simple and a potentially long section, so I'll split that into another post. Hopefully it doesn't come off as a ramble.

To put it plainly, God is Eru, God is writer, God can intrude into the story, but still views it as a story

 

[Tyranno223]

I do have a further potential post, but it delves into Tolkien's Christian beliefs and his views on how it interwoves with storytelling. It's as long as the above, so I'll post it after the above is evaluated to avoid clutter.

 

[Antvasima]

Which members have thought what here so far regarding our current Eru revision?

Agree:
Pain_to12 (however, this was based on the Ainur being Eru's thoughts, which was refuted)
Elizhaa

Disagree:
Qawsedf234 (they have not responded to my last response to them)

Others:
Jasonsith commented, but did not make a final judgement

Dread approves as long as r>f is quantitatively proven superior to either Low 2-C or 2-A

For the record, I also agree with Low 1-C for Eru.

@Qawsedf234

Have you reconsidered your opposition to upgrading Eru, or should I call for more staff members here in lack of better options?

Also, Tyranno223, can you write down sufficiently thorough explanations for all the current unrefuted arguments and evidence for upgrading Eru to Low 1-C please?

Eru holding Eä (The universe) in his thoughts/mind
"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."

"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA

Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.

Note 2: To make it clear, the universe is a 4d structure, with time and space repeatedly being mentioned in reference to it. For instance, the quote below

"...on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space." - Letter 328

"The Valar entered into Eä and Time..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: OSANWE-KENTA

"...the Elves would have said, to have passed with free will out of the physical world and time (the circles of the world)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: NOTES ON ÓRË

"When Eru gave being to this design, in general and particular, and it became Eä, unfolding in Time, He set in motion life and growth, or those processes which would in time lead to this. But when he permitted the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

Also, the phrasing "Eä and Time..." does not mean the two are separate. Both the physical world and time are part of the universe, Eä, as seen in both Letter 328, their coupling under the circles of the world (world being universe), etc. This case is purely wording.

Eru exists in a higher state of reality
"...that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'." - Letter 200

Note: This is consistent with wording which describes the Ainur as entering from a higher reality into the universe, given that they resided with Eru in the beginning

"...the Valar to descend into Time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)" - Nature of Middle-Earth: Powers of the Valar

Eru as author
"No, Frodo 'failed'. It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistible by incarnate creatures, however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us." - Letter 191

"But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story: that is to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle')." - Letter 181


"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God..."
+
"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*" - Letter 156

This is both a simple and a potentially long section, so I'll split that into another post. Hopefully it doesn't come off as a ramble.

To put it plainly, God is Eru, God is writer, God can intrude into the story, but still views it as a story

I do have a further potential post, but it delves into Tolkien's Christian beliefs and his views on how it interwoves with storytelling. It's as long as the above, so I'll post it after the above is evaluated to avoid clutter.

Thank you very much for helping out.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @KingPin0422 @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Abstractions @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure what's the main topic again?

 

[Experiment12]

Agree:
Pain_to12 (however, this was based on the Ainur being Eru's thoughts, which was refuted)
Elizhaa

Disagree:
Qawsedf234 (they have not responded to my last response to them)

Others:
Jasonsith commented, but did not make a final judgement

Dread approves as long as r>f is quantitatively proven superior to either Low 2-C or 2-A

if I agree even because Ilúvatar has transcended all creation and the creation itself has a 4D structure so as a writer it has transcended.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure what's the main topic again?

We need to decide whether or not we should upgrade Eru Ilúvatar to Low 1-C based on apparently perceiving the entire Lord of the Rings cosmology as something fictional.

 

[Hellbeast]

We need to decide whether or not we should upgrade Eru Ilúvatar to Low 1-C based on apparently perceiving the entire Lord of the Rings cosmology as something fictional.

EH idk about Low 1-C, I'm fine with 2-A though

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not really sure regarding AP, because while it makes sense for Eru to be beyond space and time of Ea, I'm not sure how much he can affect it.

Personally, I'd totally scrap any possible christian interpretation, because while true that it was Tolkien's inspiration, we cannot infere so much on which aspects he actually followed and integrated in his story (let alone the countless different doctrines and schools of toughts inside the religion itself).

Also, can anyone remind me whether Eru was actually unable to totally affect Arda and their children (like when he sunk Numenor and was stated to be unable to outright kill Sauron's essence iirc), or simply decided to not interfere too much.

That said, my knowledge of LoTR goes so far, and I'm kinda lacking when it comes to cosmology, cosmogony and general past history, as it's been like a decade since I've read the Silmarillion and kindred writings (let alone I lack History and Nature of Middle-Earth)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being willing to help out to Saman and Medeus. It is very appreciated.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Have you reconsidered your opposition to upgrading Eru,

No. Or at least, I'm still not for the Low 1-C rating. 2-A is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I still think that 2-A seems weird if there is an actual qualitative reality > fiction/thought transcendence here. Isn't our standard approach to assign Low 1-C for that kind of thing?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't our standard approach to assign Low 1-C for that kind of thing?

From my experience just thinking something into existence doesn't qualify for R>F. It's just reality warping/creation.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but if it all literally exists as thoughts within Eru's mind, doesn't that work?

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's already infinitely superior to the rest of the verse and 2-A covers that in my view.

Just thinking weaker people up just isn't a Low 1-C justification in my view.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. We usually jump up a level of "dimensionality" for every degree of reality > fiction layer though, so 2-A seems to conflict with our usual standards.

 

[Tyranno223]

He's already infinitely superior to the rest of the verse and 2-A covers that in my view.

Just thinking weaker people up just isn't a Low 1-C justification in my view.

The wording states that he's both author, and existing on a higher level of reality, that's not something that falls under 2-A.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm not really sure regarding AP, because while it makes sense for Eru to be beyond space and time of Ea, I'm not sure how much he can affect it.

Personally, I'd totally scrap any possible christian interpretation, because while true that it was Tolkien's inspiration, we cannot infere so much on which aspects he actually followed and integrated in his story (let alone the countless different doctrines and schools of toughts inside the religion itself).

Also, can anyone remind me whether Eru was actually unable to totally affect Arda and their children (like when he sunk Numenor and was stated to be unable to outright kill Sauron's essence iirc), or simply decided to not interfere too much.

That said, my knowledge of LoTR goes so far, and I'm kinda lacking when it comes to cosmology, cosmogony and general past history, as it's been like a decade since I've read the Silmarillion and kindred writings (let alone I lack History and Nature of Middle-Earth)

I'll avoid commenting too far on the Christian side of things, but his Letters outright talk of Eru in such light.

God and his Angels

God/Eru

Talk of miracles, salvation, etc

 

[Antvasima]

The wording states that he's both author, and existing on a higher level of reality, that's not something that falls under 2-A.

Yes. Agreed.

I'll avoid commenting on the Christian side of things, but his Letters outright talk of Eru in such light.

God and his Angels

God/Eru

Talk of miracles, salvation, etc

That seems quite reliable then.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'll avoid commenting too far on the Christian side of things, but his Letters outright talk of Eru in such light.

God and his Angels

God/Eru

Talk of miracles, salvation, etc

As generals concepts yes, tons of other media do that, but there's a wide gap from acknowledging the inspiration christianism gave him to applying the specific rules and mechanics of a certain christian current to the opera as a whole.

We used to do the same with Journey to the West. The influence of Buddhism was blatant and outright stated, but it was decided to not make any assumption nor using any irl buddhist current to scale the book, as we don't know the author's thoughts on the matter nor how much of a certain religion they actually intended to put in their story.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was unaware of the infinite number of timelines in the LotR multiverse, but I think Low 1-C might be alright if he Eru perceives the entire cosmology as fiction.

 

[Tyranno223]

As generals concepts yes, tons of other media do that, but there's a wide gap from acknowledging the inspiration christianism gave him to applying the specific rules and mechanics of a certain christian current to the opera as a whole.

We used to do the same with Journey to the West. The influence of Buddhism was blatant and outright stated, but it was decided to not make any assumption nor using any irl buddhist current to scale the book, as we don't know the author's thoughts on the matter nor how much of a certain religion they actually intended to put in their story.

I'm not using anything that isn't explicitly laid out in Tolkien’s own words, or at the very least, written by editors (those that were approved by his son).

What is already laid out is distant from orthodox Christian doctrine anyway, so it's not like with Fiamma (ToAru) where I'm suggesting Eru gets every power in the Bible.

 

[Tyranno223]

I was unaware of the infinite number of timelines in the LotR multiverse

Tbh, I wasn't aware of it until this topic came up. Although it's technically more of a Tolkien cosmology than an LotR one.

It's a infinite amount of potential fictions (stories) that would all be made by "sub-creators" (writers) with Tolkien's Legendarium being one of them. These all falling under God/Eru the author and writer of creation

It's not technically under LOTR, but it is under Eru, the ultimate creator (and potentially the "Angels"/Ainur that reside alongside him).

This would thus only apply to those that stand above

 

[ImmortalDread]

This sounds like additional evidence of why he is low 1-C. Sounds more dependable to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, 2-A would be a weird proposal compared to Low 1-C.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm not really sure regarding AP, because while it makes sense for Eru to be beyond space and time of Ea, I'm not sure how much he can affect it.

To put it plainly, Tolkien has repeated statements of Eru being able to do anything within the verse, being the omnipotent deity of the verse (of course, specifically the verse). The only limitation he has shown is an "inability to destroy spirits with free will" (211). However another letter says that free will is something that the Creator guarantees/allows (153) and that God/Eru is the only "wholly free will" (156) meaning it's more of him being unable to do contradictory things (logical omnipotence fallacy I suppose).

Also, can anyone remind me whether Eru was actually unable to totally affect Arda and their children (like when he sunk Numenor and was stated to be unable to outright kill Sauron's essence iirc), or simply decided to not interfere too much.

Eru was specifically asked by the Valar to intervene, as he had not given them the authority to directly interfere with the free-will of the Children of Ilúvatar (Humans, Elves, etc).

To this end, he only destroyed Numenor, the offending party. Sauron was also attacked as a result (being on Numenor) but he was collateral, not the intended target

 

[Tyranno223]

How many knowledgeable members do we need for Low 1-C to be accepted?

 

[Experiment12]

How many knowledgeable members do we need for Low 1-C to be accepted?

I agree because basically Low 1-C is already 5D, and all of Eru's creations are 4D while Eru is in a higher realm as a writer maybe I look stupid.

 

[Dinamic8000]

Far from i being a knowledgeable member, but i just wanna say that after reading the discussion i also agrees that Eru should be Low 1-C

The fact that all the Ainur comes from his thought sounds like a higher level of existence to me

 

[Tyranno223]

I agree because basically Low 1-C is already 5D, and all of Eru's creations are 4D while Eru is in a higher realm as a writer maybe I look stupid.

No, your opinions fine, it's just that I'm referring to knowledgeable members involved in calcs. They're the people the wiki trusts with evaluating this sort of thing.

 

[Antvasima]

How many knowledgeable members do we need for Low 1-C to be accepted?

It depends, and isn't set in stone, but for more important revisions we usually preferably need an almost uniform consensus between the contributing staff and highly knowledgeable members, not just a 51% versus 49% voting total, so I hope that Qawsedf234 is willing to reconsider here.

Can somebody write a tally for all the members who have agreed and disagreed so far regarding a Low 1-C Eru please?

No, your opinions fine, it's just that I'm referring to knowledgeable members involved in calcs. They're the people the wiki trusts with evaluating this sort of thing.

Not exactly. There are only quite a few members with a genuinely good grasp of our highest tiers, whereas calc group members are focused on calculations, which this particular issue isn't about.

It is just about tier Low 1-C though, which isn't nearly as hard to understand as Low 1-A and upwards.

 

[Tyranno223]

Can somebody write a tally for all the members who have agreed and disagreed so far regarding a Low 1-C Eru please?

Agree:
Pain_to12 (however, this was based on the Ainur being Eru's thoughts, which was refuted)
Elizhaa
Dread
DarkDragonMedeus (Or rather they specifically stated that "In that case, 2-A would be a weird proposal compared to Low 1-C."

Disagree:
Qawsedf234

Others:
Jasonsith commented, but did not make a final judgement

Not exactly. There are only quite a few members with a genuinely good grasp of our highest tiers, whereas calc group members are focused on calculations, which this particular issue isn't about.

It is just about tier Low 1-C though, which isn't nearly as hard to understand as Low 1-A and upwards.

Ah, right. I'm not too aware of things beyond Tier 2, so my assumptions tend to just come off what I observe in content revision threads. Thanks for informing me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Elizhaa, Medeus, Pain, and myself all think that Low 1-C is fine, it might be possible to apply, but I would much prefer a go-ahead from @Qawsedf234 first.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, you can outweigh me vote wise and change Eru to Low 1-C (which is fine of course), but my opinion on him being 2-A hasn't really changed.

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean, you can outweigh me vote wise and change Eru to Low 1-C (which is fine of course), but my opinion on him being 2-A hasn't really changed.

To be frank I don't understand a 2-A proposal, there's only one piece of evidence for it (and said piece lends itself better to Low 1-C via the presentation of sub-creation and higher creators).

A Low 2-C stance I can understand, but 2-A is the least sturdy of the 3 proposals. From my understanding, even being infinitely above a Low 2-C character would only make you at least Low 2-C (hence the current rating).

 

[ImmortalDread]

You can be low 1-C without even needing to achieve 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, you can outweigh me vote wise and change Eru to Low 1-C (which is fine of course), but my opinion on him being 2-A hasn't really changed.

Well, it is a borderline case in terms of if we are supposed to do that or not, given that you are still one of our highest ranked staff members.

 

[Antvasima]

You can be low 1-C without even needing to achieve 2-A.

That is correct as far as I am aware, yes.