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I have handled it.Personally the name change would be handy. While it is funny, the current name is also innacurate for the direction of the thread.
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I have handled it.Personally the name change would be handy. While it is funny, the current name is also innacurate for the direction of the thread.
Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur
Wording wise, they are offspring of Eru's thought, thus Eru's thoughts given life. They can do nothing that Eru himself does not permit, not even Melkor, with Eru saying "‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."
"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.
Moreover, other writings imply that, while the Ainur are "independent beings" with a free will, they are in many ways also extensions of Eru's mind. However, this is less certain.
"But it is also used more vaguely of things arising in the mind or entering the mind (sanar) which the Eldar regarded as sometimes the result of deep reflection (often proceeding in sleep) and sometimes of actual messages or influences on the mind – from other minds, including the greater minds of the Valar and so indirectly from Eru." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Notes on Órë
That's pretty much what I was trying to make clear. The universe Eru created in Low 2-C, and said universe is sustained in his thoughts. Hence a 4d creation is sustained/created as thought
@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutzOn a sidenote, Tolkien's conception of Eru as author seems to go a step further than I realised.
He wrote this in Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153
In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"
Essentially, Tolkien defends his non-orthodox (Catholic) writing (thus the world of the Legendarium) as an exploration of the infinite potential of his conception of the Christian God.
His letters also repeatedly equate Eru with the Christian God.
"So God and the 'angelic' gods..."
"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God"
"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*"
- Letter 156
Now, while I'm not going to get too far into this debate (as a Christian myself, I know delving too deep into this for a vs board is just asking for trouble). It is possible that Thedent had a point with a potentially 2-A conception of Eru.
I am NOT asserting this claim yet (moreover, it's unnecessary if Low 1-C goes through, although it might add weight), but I will look further into this, as this is an angle I have not considered before.
Does Eru's profile need to be upgraded now?My opinion won't matter too much given I'm not a knowledgeable member on anything above tier 2, but I'm pretty convinced by tier Low 1-C
Again, I'm against the presented arguments for 2-A, although I'm looking into it myself.
Shall we just vote here?Saya tidak berpikir bahwa status penulis secara otomatis tumpang tindih dengan dimensi yang lebih tinggi.
This is a different caseOntological just means that A relies on B to exist. That doesn't have anything to do with being Low 1-C. A higher level of Tier 2 can accommodate a bunch of High 3-As or Low 2-Cs.
It's not just sustained by thought, the wording implies that the world is very much within his mind.Being sustained by thoughts is not the same as R>F. Ontology still is ultimately defined that things rely on other things to exist and the only 2-A statement is about Eru.
I'm not seeing more than 2A for it. Low 1-C just seems like a highball.
Ontology and the wording implies existence spring from its mind, but I don't see it as them existing solely within it.wording implies that the world is very much within his mind.
(Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thoughtOntology and the wording implies existence spring from its mind, but I don't see it as them existing solely within it.
Can you send the contexts of this quote?(Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought
+
The statement that Eru "holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”
Quite plainly assert the Eä and creation is within the mind of Eru, which thereby allows it to remain in existence. The entire universe is held within his thought and thus mind.
They are born of his mind, but the wording of "brothers in his thoughts" implies they are still within his mind + there is another line which posits that understanding the mind of the Ainur thereby leads to understanding of Eru, hinting at a continued linkThis are the literal meaning of the quotes
1. They are offspring of his thought
2. Made the Ainur of his thoughts
3. They are all brothers in his thoughts.
He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.Can you send the contexts of this quote?
So far these are the main things.Low 1-C seems fine as long as r>f is proven to be qualitatively superior to low 2-C (or, as you call it, 2-A if it is proven to be infinite)
The main point of contention is that.Seems fine, but what are the opposing arguments? Is it because the “mind” or his “thought” is not literal?
I think the most important thing is that Eru has surpassed all of creation even Existence Eru is 5-D in R>F.Poin utama pertengkaran adalah itu.
Satu hal yang telah dibantah untuk saat ini adalah bahwa Ainur (makhluk yang memiliki sifat 4 dimensi) adalah bagian dari pemikiran Eru. Setelah melihat lebih jauh, mereka agak lahir dari pikirannya, daripada secara harfiah menjadi mereka.
Perdebatan utama sekarang adalah apakah Eä secara harfiah ada di dalam pikiran Eru.
Sorry but this is beyond me, I have no knowledge on the series and I doubt my opinion would be worth much as a whole.@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz
I personally think that Low 1-C seems warranted for Eru Illuvatar here, based on a qualitative reality > fiction difference, and Elizhaa and Pain_to12 agree with me, but Qawsedf234 appears to disagree so far, and he is usually also very sensible, so I would appreciate further help with properly evaluating this. Thanks in advance for any help.
Wouldn't he be large size for holding everything in his mind? Or how is he doing itMultiple lines state that Eru holds the universe in his mind, or thought.
Well the lines state that Eä is within his thoughts.Wouldn't he be large size for holding everything in his mind? Or how is he doing it
me, because I filedAnggota mana yang sejauh ini memikirkan tentang revisi Eru kami saat ini?
Can somebody here write a tally please?Which members have thought what here so far regarding our current Eru revision?
counting what times I can help youCan somebody here write a tally please?
I still support a Low 1-C Eru btw.
Listing which members that support a Low 1-C upgrade, and which ones that do not.
You can't tag anyone as a regular memberB Btw how do you tag people here?
Hi, Antvasima, you are going on vacation, we should do a vote, if you don't have one, maybe some of the members here will be bothered and you don't have enough support, how about that? although members here experienced?Listing which members that support a Low 1-C upgrade, and which ones that do not.