• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Lord of the Rings revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dinamic8000 said:
Saya benar-benar tidak terlalu berpengalaman dalam membahas apa pun di atas 2-C rendah, tetapi saya sangat skeptis tentang pemutakhiran ini mengingat fakta-fakta berikut:

  1. All the reference is from one letter where we can assume Eru is indirectly mentioned, for what i see overall on this wiki you need more more evidences to upgrade a profile to such degree
  2. Kita harus ingat karena Tolkien yang mengemis tidak melihat dirinya sebagai penulis Legenderium, dalam POV-nya semua sejarah itu adalah kisah kuno yang dia terjemahkan ke audiens modern, ini tidak berarti bahwa karakternya memiliki tambahan keberadaan dimensi atau sinanigan lainnya
  3. Saat dia mengatakan orang lain mengambil cerita, dia bisa saja mengatakan bahwa entitas di dalam narasi ikut campur pada saat itu, dan bukan bahwa dia berada di atas cerita atau ada di luarnya (Beginilah cara tolkienist menafsirkan surat ini di sini for example)
  4. Ini selanjutnya didukung oleh fakta yang harus kita ingat bahwa Eru (Seperti yang telah dibahas di atas) adalah caranya Tolkien melihat dewa Kristen dalam latar fiksinya, jadi kita dapat berasumsi bahwa Eru adalah makhluk yang sempurna dan dia membuat segalanya seperti yang dimaksudkan. menjadi, visi yang dia tunjukkan kepada Ainur didukung karena dia tahu bagaimana ciptaannya akan berperilaku, setiap kali dia ikut campur dalam cerita ITU KARENA HARUS ITU, sehingga momen yang disebutkan dalam surat itu bukan manipulasi plot KARENA SEMUA "Plot" EA SUDAH DIPUTUSKAN SEJAK AWAL DAN TIDAK ADA YANG PERUBAHAN
Jadi ya, secara keseluruhan hanya menggunakan surat saja tidak cukup sebagai bukti IMO
Click to expand...

Letter 192

Letter 192 is a letter written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
tolkiengateway.net tolkiengateway.net
It seems you have to read and know about macro and micro and about philosophy, try to read fundamentals again and understand if your terms are high
 
Tolkien's world correlating with our own is already something that's generally agreed on here.

The line referring to Arda being set within the indefinite vastness likely refers to Eä, aka the universe. Arda is the name for the planet, not the universe. Although this aruably does make their 3-A rating higher, it's indefinite.

Regardless, even if this did refer to universes, it would be 2-B, as indefinite is not infinite.

Letter 192 does indeed refer to Eru as the "author", but that does alone seems rather weak for an upgrade to Low 1-C.
 
Antvasima said:
@Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66 @Dinamic8000

What should we currently do here?
Click to expand...
Personally speaking, the current arguments seem a bit weak. We already equate the Tolkien Legendarium as mostly akin to our world (outside obviously different things), hence 3-A.

The statement of an indefinite creation around Arda (the planet) likely refers to Eä (the material universe) and not an infinite or indefinite multiverse.

Seperately there is an argument for a multiverse based off of a statement of other Ainur creating other worlds, but I need to check context to see if that's planets or universes (I believe it's the former).

The statement of Eru as an author is not enough for Low 1-C in isolation. It's true that all the Ainur are but pieces of his thoughts, and that the whole universe is held/sustained in his thoughts, but is that enough? I don't know, but Eä is a Low 2-C universe from my understanding, and the Ainur are at best Low 2-C individually (in their origin).
 
Tyranno223 said:
Personally speaking, the current arguments seem a bit weak. We already equate the Tolkien Legendarium as mostly akin to our world (outside obviously different things), hence 3-A.

The statement of an indefinite creation around Arda (the planet) likely refers to Eä (the material universe) and not an infinite or indefinite multiverse.

Seperately there is an argument for a multiverse based off of a statement of other Ainur creating other worlds, but I need to check context to see if that's planets or universes (I believe it's the former).

The statement of Eru as an author is not enough for Low 1-C in isolation. It's true that all the Ainur are but pieces of his thoughts, and that the whole universe is held/sustained in his thoughts, but is that enough? I don't know, but Eä is a Low 2-C universe from my understanding, and the Ainur are at best Low 2-C individually (in their origin).
Click to expand...
Well, if a Low 2-C universe is literally just a fiction/thought to Eru, that does actually seem like a qualification to Low 1-C as far as I am aware, but I will have to ask some knowledgeable members first.

@Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

What do you think about this?
 
Thedent said:
*『 Cosmology *
Click to expand...
So, i will later analiseis more carefully your post, but a few things first:

  • There are some parts that are written in what i assume is Filipino or Indonesian, you need to translate this parts to English (Or in this case search for the original English citation) Since English is the lingua franca we use here to discuss the CR's
  • You used a video from the movie, and we already established here that the movie is a completely different canon
  • You cited older works of the legenderium, this is also something that, for the most part, is not considered canon since Tolkien rewritten his world inúmeros times thought +60 years, creating stories almost completely different
    • The case of using the letters as evidence is something i believe it is new in this thread, since it was one that referenced LOTR after the books was release i think it is okay, but beware that even the letters can contain contradictory information if we are talking about the ones way back 1914
Thedent said:
It seems you have to read and know about macro and micro and about philosophy, try to read fundamentals again and understand if your terms are high
Click to expand...

Of course, i am not a academic specialist in this subjects in any way whatsoever, but it would be great if besides that you could tell what exactly was wrong in my commentaries
 
Well, I suppose I might as well compile quotes to make this easier.

Regarding Eru as author/writer.

"...from the total drama of which Eru is the Author..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Fate and Free Will

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192



Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.



Regarding Eru and creation

"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."

"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA

Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.
 
As an added comment, I have very little understanding of tiers beyond tier 2 (and even then it's rather loose by that point), so I have no real input to add to the tier 1 talk beyond this.
 
Dinamic8000 said:
So, i will later analiseis more carefully your post, but a few things first:

  • There are some parts that are written in what i assume is Filipino or Indonesian, you need to translate this parts to English (Or in this case search for the original English citation) Since English is the lingua franca we use here to discuss the CR's
  • You used a video from the movie, and we already established here that the movie is a completely different canon
  • You cited older works of the legenderium, this is also something that, for the most part, is not considered canon since Tolkien rewritten his world inúmeros times thought +60 years, creating stories almost completely different
    • The case of using the letters as evidence is something i believe it is new in this thread, since it was one that referenced LOTR after the books was release i think it is okay, but beware that even the letters can contain contradictory information if we are talking about the ones way back 1914


Of course, i am not a academic specialist in this subjects in any way whatsoever, but it would be great if besides that you could tell what exactly was wrong in my commentaries
Click to expand...
『Cosmology』

At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].

• The Silmarillion

• The Hobbits

• The Lord of the Rings

• The Children of Húrin

• Beren and Lúthien

• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series

• Unfinished Tales

• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)


[1]

And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to ⬇️

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]

●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●

Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.

First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
⬇️

[2]

⬇️





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[3]

https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]

https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]

https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]

https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]

And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]

And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]

Also, Middle-Earth in J.R.R Tolkien, he follows in Norse Mythology which is the "Universe" with that explanation, also, has the same Meaning, with "Arda" which refers to "Universes" in Norse Mythology, not just a Point of The Universes, with that explanation. [4]

https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]

Another version of Tolkien's Legendarium, explains that there is an unlimited quantity of universes, (Indefinite) as the realization of the vision of an Ainur (Angel) creature, which makes the Cosmological structure owned by J.R.R Tolkien Fiction become the Multiverse + (2A), which can be became the benchmark for Valinor and Tom Bombadil's Home, "opens as if it were a window into some other system".

Sorry I'm not English so I used google translate
 
Last edited:
Tyranno223 said:
Well, I suppose I might as well compile quotes to make this easier.

Regarding Eru as author/writer.

"...from the total drama of which Eru is the Author..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Fate and Free Will

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192



Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.



Regarding Eru and creation

"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Catatan : Kutipan khusus ini memiliki komentar tentang masalah di atas. Teks di bawah ini bukanlah kata-kata Tolkien, melainkan eksplorasi pemikiran Katolik alias doktrin yang dianut Tolkien. Legendariumnya adalah karya fundamental Kristen, dengan Surat 142 memperjelas ini - " The Lord of the Rings tentu saja merupakan karya fundamental agama dan Katolik; secara tidak sadar pada awalnya, tetapi secara sadar dalam revisi. "

"Dalam metafisika Katolik, keberadaan alam semesta material dan semua yang ada di dalamnya, adalah kontingen: baik dalam arti bahwa ia tidak ada karena kebutuhan melainkan oleh tindakan serampangan dari ciptaan Ilahi, dan dalam arti bahwa keberadaannya terus berlanjut, di semua bagiannya hingga ke partikel yang paling kecil, dan di semua momen, adalah karena kehendak Tuhan yang terus-menerus (dari pandangan temporal) akan keberadaannya. Rumusan Katoliknya (seperti banyak hal lain dari metafisika Katolik) adalah karena St. Thomas Aquinas, yang sangat menguraikan dan memperluas kontingensi keberadaan. Pernyataan khusus Tolkien di sini, bahwa seluruh keberadaan material dan temporal (Eä, "Dunia yang Ada") "berpadu" (< bahasa Latin co-haerere, secara harfiah 'bersatu') dalam pemikiran Eru, juga dengan jelas menggemakan Kitab Suci, khususnya Kol 1:17: ”Ia [Kristus] ada terlebih dahulu dari segala sesuatu, dan di dalam Dia segala sesuatu ada”. Kontingensi keberadaan yang berkelanjutan juga tercermin dalam Kisah Para Rasul 17:28, di mana St. Paul, mengutip (pada akhirnya) Epimenides (yang memikirkan Zeus), mengatakan kepada orang-orang Athena yang berkumpul: keberadaan kita, 'seperti yang dikatakan oleh beberapa penyair Anda'."

" Dan akhirnya Penglihatan diperbarui, tetapi sekarang tidak jauh, karena dia sendiri ada di dalamnya, namun dia melihat bahwa semuanya didukung oleh tangan Ilúvatar ... " - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA

Catatan : Referensi untuk Eru mempertahankan penciptaan.
Click to expand...
Eru Ilúvatar I really believe it should have plot manipulation skills and you can see the cosmology below that I gave maybe it can help Eru Ilúvatar 2-A
 
I think we all misinterpreted that statement fron Tolkien about the Ainur seeing Eä as a drama. He was referring to when the Ainur made the "Great Vision" Tolkien says in one of the letters that after that he turned Eä as real as the Ainur, something odd like that but the message is clear. I don't think thia changes much but felt like pointing that out.
.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
I think we all misinterpreted that statement fron Tolkien about the Ainur seeing Eä as a drama. He was referring to when the Ainur made the "Great Vision" Tolkien says in one of the letters that after that he turned Eä as real as the Ainur, something odd like that but the message is clear. I don't think thia changes much but felt like pointing that out.
.
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t that imply the Ainur aren’t Low 2-C tho?
We also apparently misconstrued the moving thing
 
Thedent said:
『Cosmology』

At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].

• The Silmarillion

• The Hobbits

• The Lord of the Rings

• The Children of Húrin

• Beren and Lúthien

• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series

• Unfinished Tales

• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)


[1]

And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to ⬇️

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]

●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●

Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.

First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
⬇️

[2]

⬇️





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[3]

https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]

https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]

https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]

https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]

And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]

And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]

Juga, Middle-Earth di JRR Tolkien, dia mengikuti Mitologi Norse yang merupakan "Alam Semesta" dengan penjelasan itu, juga, memiliki Arti yang sama, dengan "Arda" yang mengacu pada "Alam Semesta" dalam Mitologi Norse, bukan hanya Titik Semesta, dengan penjelasan itu. [4]

https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]

Versi lain dari Tolkien's Legendarium, menjelaskan bahwa terdapat alam semesta dalam jumlah yang tidak terbatas, (Indefinite) sebagai realisasi dari penglihatan makhluk Ainur (Malaikat), yang membuat Struktur Kosmologis yang dimiliki JRR Tolkien Fiction menjadi Multiverse + (2A) , yang bisa menjadi patokan Valinor dan Rumah Tom Bombadil, "membuka seolah-olah itu adalah jendela ke sistem lain".

Maaf saya bukan orang Inggris jadi saya menggunakan google translate
Click to expand...

untuk semua moderatornya for all moderators vs battle and lotr supporters maybe this will be Eru Ilúvatar 2-A
 
TheMerchant66 said:
I think we all misinterpreted that statement fron Tolkien about the Ainur seeing Eä as a drama. He was referring to when the Ainur made the "Great Vision" Tolkien says in one of the letters that after that he turned Eä as real as the Ainur, something odd like that but the message is clear. I don't think thia changes much but felt like pointing that out.
.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this was one of the things I changed my mind on that I intended to bring up later. Alongside a change to our current 3-A scaling.
 
Last edited:
Hellbeast said:
Wouldn’t that imply the Ainur aren’t Low 2-C tho?
We also apparently misconstrued the moving thing
Click to expand...
Potentially. There is a lot of wording about the Ainur being above time and reality in their origin, but I'll have to go over it to see if it justifies keeping Low 2-C. There's also some specific wording that says the Ainur became bound to the confines of the world in regard to their power (alongside their person), which would also potentially keep them at that tier.

Also, the moving thing? I'm too sure what that’s referring to, but if you're talking about the star and moon moving thing from Death Battle, we don't use them as far I know.
 
Last edited:
Thedent said:
『Cosmology』

At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].

• The Silmarillion

• The Hobbits

• The Lord of the Rings

• The Children of Húrin

• Beren and Lúthien

• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series

• Unfinished Tales

• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)


[1]

And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to ⬇️

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]

●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●

Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.

First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
⬇️

[2]

⬇️





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[3]

https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]

https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]

https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]

https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]

And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]

And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]

Also, Middle-Earth in J.R.R Tolkien, he follows in Norse Mythology which is the "Universe" with that explanation, also, has the same Meaning, with "Arda" which refers to "Universes" in Norse Mythology, not just a Point of The Universes, with that explanation. [4]

https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]

Another version of Tolkien's Legendarium, explains that there is an unlimited quantity of universes, (Indefinite) as the realization of the vision of an Ainur (Angel) creature, which makes the Cosmological structure owned by J.R.R Tolkien Fiction become the Multiverse + (2A), which can be became the benchmark for Valinor and Tom Bombadil's Home, "opens as if it were a window into some other system".

Sorry I'm not English so I used google translate
Click to expand...

I've already commented on your post above. You don't need to post it twice.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Well, I suppose I might as well compile quotes to make this easier.

Regarding Eru as author/writer.

"...from the total drama of which Eru is the Author..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Fate and Free Will

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192



Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.



Regarding Eru and creation

"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."

"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA

Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.
Click to expand...
Tyranno223 said:
As an added comment, I have very little understanding of tiers beyond tier 2 (and even then it's rather loose by that point), so I have no real input to add to the tier 1 talk beyond this.
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa @GreatIskandar14045

We would greatly appreciate your input here.
 
Also, Thedent, please do not disturb the knowledgeable members here too much by spamming.
 
May I ask (by now)

Does Eru consider the world as fiction or just one dimension underneath?
That's 1-A versus Low 1-C I would see. Maybe even worse, just make Eru low 2-C and everything else High 3-A at most
 
Jasonsith said:
May I ask (by now)

Does Eru consider the world as fiction or just one dimension underneath?
That's 1-A versus Low 1-C I would see. Maybe even worse, just make Eru low 2-C and everything else High 3-A at most
Click to expand...
maybe I will oppose this, you can see the cosmology that I have given above
 
Jasonsith said:
May I ask (by now)

Does Eru consider the world as fiction or just one dimension underneath?
That's 1-A versus Low 1-C I would see. Maybe even worse, just make Eru low 2-C and everything else High 3-A at most
Click to expand...
The wording makes it difficult to be clear (Tolkien afterall) but it appears Eru doesn't consider it as fiction, but at the same time, sustains it as mere thought.

The Ainur are all parts of his thought/born of his thought, and the world itself is sustained in Eru's thought (the wording here is that in Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”.)

Basically it's a thought to him.

I'm against making the Ainur High 3-A, they're either Low 2-C (I'll present my case for keeping this to some extent) or they upscale to an unknown extent from their in Eä key.
 
Last edited:
Tyranno223 said:
The wording makes it difficult to be clear (Tolkien afterall) but it appears Eru doesn't consider it as fiction, but at the same time, sustains it as mere thought.

The Ainur are all parts of his thought/born of his thought, and the world itself is sustained in Eru's thought (the wording here is that in Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”.)

Basically it's a thought to him.

I'm against making the Ainur High 3-A, they're either Low 2-C (I'll present my case for keeping this to some extent) or they upscale to an unknown extent from their in Eä key.
Click to expand...
Hello Tyranno223I agree with you, it should be Eru Ilúvatar. Possibility of tier 2-B to 2-A, you can see the cosmology that I gave
 
Thedent said:
Hello Tyranno223I agree with you, it should be Eru Ilúvatar. Possibility of tier 2-B to 2-A, you can see the cosmology that I gave
Click to expand...
2-B to 2-A I've already disagreed with as the statement referred to an indefinite space around Arda. This would be Eä, the material universe.

However, I do agree Low 1-C might be possible (much to my surprise), depending on how it's evaluated.
 
Tyranno223 said:
2-B to 2-A I've already disagreed with as the statement referred to an indefinite space around Arda. This would be Eä, the material universe.

However, I do agree Low 1-C might be possible (much to my surprise), depending on how it's evaluated.
Click to expand...
btw, it's not the infinite space, and for reason Low 1-c In lord of the rings there is a Multi-Temporal structure. Structure 2A is accommodated by something that is atleast 4x bigger than 2A, and this Structural is accommodated again with something called Void. Maybe like this I can't explain too much it will get complicated
 
It is probably best if you do not post nearly as often to this thread anymore Thedent, as the knowledgeable and experienced members in this thread need to properly evaluate all of the relevant information here.
 
Antvasima said:
It is probably best if you do not post nearly as often to this thread anymore Thedent, as the knowledgeable and experienced members in this thread need to properly evaluate all of the relevant information here.
Click to expand...
Why do I apologize if I speak presumptuously, but I just want to tell you the facts if you don't believe me and I hope the Eru low 1-c upgrade fails.
 
Thedent said:
Why do I apologize if I speak presumptuously, but I just want to tell you the facts if you don't believe me and I hope the Eru low 1-c upgrade fails.
Click to expand...
And I also want to gain experience in death battle, is that not allowed and interacting is also not allowed???
 
It is allowed to gain experience is discussions, but if some posts are of comparatively low quality and derail from the main conversation, that is not a positive contribution pattern.

If you want to participate in versus threads, we have another forum for that instead.
 
In the meantime I suppose I'll just wait for the evaluation of Low 1-C Eru before going ahead with anything else. I still need to respond to some of Merchant's earlier points.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Tyranno223
Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread
5 6 7
Replies
250
Views
20K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
The hunter vs legolas (grace)
Replies
15
Views
745
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Artorimachi_Meteoraft
Sergeant_Hypocrite
Darkseid VS Sauron
Replies
8
Views
1K
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Tyranno223
Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal
2
Replies
71
Views
7K
OrangeFR
OrangeFR
Tyranno223
  • Locked
Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)
8 9 10
Replies
385
Views
22K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top