Experiment12
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Letter 192
Letter 192 is a letter written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Lord of the Rings revisions
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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Tolkien's world correlating with our own is already something that's generally agreed on here.
The line referring to Arda being set within the indefinite vastness likely refers to Eä, aka the universe. Arda is the name for the planet, not the universe. Although this aruably does make their 3-A rating higher, it's indefinite.
Regardless, even if this did refer to universes, it would be 2-B, as indefinite is not infinite.
Letter 192 does indeed refer to Eru as the "author", but that does alone seems rather weak for an upgrade to Low 1-C.
The line referring to Arda being set within the indefinite vastness likely refers to Eä, aka the universe. Arda is the name for the planet, not the universe. Although this aruably does make their 3-A rating higher, it's indefinite.
Regardless, even if this did refer to universes, it would be 2-B, as indefinite is not infinite.
Letter 192 does indeed refer to Eru as the "author", but that does alone seems rather weak for an upgrade to Low 1-C.
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Thank you. I locked it earlier.
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Personally speaking, the current arguments seem a bit weak. We already equate the Tolkien Legendarium as mostly akin to our world (outside obviously different things), hence 3-A.
The statement of an indefinite creation around Arda (the planet) likely refers to Eä (the material universe) and not an infinite or indefinite multiverse.
Seperately there is an argument for a multiverse based off of a statement of other Ainur creating other worlds, but I need to check context to see if that's planets or universes (I believe it's the former).
The statement of Eru as an author is not enough for Low 1-C in isolation. It's true that all the Ainur are but pieces of his thoughts, and that the whole universe is held/sustained in his thoughts, but is that enough? I don't know, but Eä is a Low 2-C universe from my understanding, and the Ainur are at best Low 2-C individually (in their origin).
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Well, if a Low 2-C universe is literally just a fiction/thought to Eru, that does actually seem like a qualification to Low 1-C as far as I am aware, but I will have to ask some knowledgeable members first.
@Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12
What do you think about this?
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So, i will later analiseis more carefully your post, but a few things first:
- There are some parts that are written in what i assume is Filipino or Indonesian, you need to translate this parts to English (Or in this case search for the original English citation) Since English is the lingua franca we use here to discuss the CR's
- You used a video from the movie, and we already established here that the movie is a completely different canon
- You cited older works of the legenderium, this is also something that, for the most part, is not considered canon since Tolkien rewritten his world inúmeros times thought +60 years, creating stories almost completely different
- The case of using the letters as evidence is something i believe it is new in this thread, since it was one that referenced LOTR after the books was release i think it is okay, but beware that even the letters can contain contradictory information if we are talking about the ones way back 1914
Of course, i am not a academic specialist in this subjects in any way whatsoever, but it would be great if besides that you could tell what exactly was wrong in my commentaries
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I still contrary to upgrade Eru to Tier 1 using the current evidence
But once again, i still quite new with our tiering system, maybe look for the opinion of more knowledgeable members is the best option
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Well, I suppose I might as well compile quotes to make this easier.
Regarding Eru as author/writer.
"...from the total drama of which Eru is the Author..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Fate and Free Will
"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192
Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur
"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.
Regarding Eru and creation
"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.
"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES
Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."
"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."
"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA
Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.
Regarding Eru as author/writer.
"...from the total drama of which Eru is the Author..." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Fate and Free Will
"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'*" - Letter 192
Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur
"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.
Regarding Eru and creation
"But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.
"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES
Note: This particular extract had this commentary on the matter above. The below text isn't Tolkien's words, but rather an exploration of Catholic thought, aka the doctrine Tolkien followed. His Legendarium was a fundamentally Christian work, with Letter 142 making this clear - "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."
"In Catholic metaphysics, the existence of the material universe and all that is in it, is contingent: both in the sense that it does not exist by necessity but rather by a gratuitous act of Divine creation, and in the sense that its continued existence, in all its parts down to the most minute particle, and at all moments, is due to God’s continuous (from a temporal view) willing of its existence. Its Catholic formulation (as so much else of Catholic metaphysics) is due to St. Thomas Aquinas, who greatly elaborated and expanded upon the contingency of existence. Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”. The ongoing contingency of existence is also reflected in Acts 17:28, where St. Paul, quoting (ultimately) Epimenides (who however had Zeus in mind), says to the gathered Athenians: “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said”."
"And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar..." - The Silmarillion: OF AULË AND YAVANNA
Note: A reference to Eru sustaining creation.
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As an added comment, I have very little understanding of tiers beyond tier 2 (and even then it's rather loose by that point), so I have no real input to add to the tier 1 talk beyond this.
Experiment12
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『Cosmology』
At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].
• The Silmarillion
• The Hobbits
• The Lord of the Rings
• The Children of Húrin
• Beren and Lúthien
• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series
• Unfinished Tales
• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)
[1]
And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]
●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●
Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.
First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
[2]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[3]
https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]
https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]
https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]
https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]
And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]
And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]
Also, Middle-Earth in J.R.R Tolkien, he follows in Norse Mythology which is the "Universe" with that explanation, also, has the same Meaning, with "Arda" which refers to "Universes" in Norse Mythology, not just a Point of The Universes, with that explanation. [4]
https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]
Another version of Tolkien's Legendarium, explains that there is an unlimited quantity of universes, (Indefinite) as the realization of the vision of an Ainur (Angel) creature, which makes the Cosmological structure owned by J.R.R Tolkien Fiction become the Multiverse + (2A), which can be became the benchmark for Valinor and Tom Bombadil's Home, "opens as if it were a window into some other system".
Sorry I'm not English so I used google translate
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Experiment12
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Eru Ilúvatar I really believe it should have plot manipulation skills and you can see the cosmology below that I gave maybe it can help Eru Ilúvatar 2-A
PrinceofPein
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Can I get the scan?
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I think we all misinterpreted that statement fron Tolkien about the Ainur seeing Eä as a drama. He was referring to when the Ainur made the "Great Vision" Tolkien says in one of the letters that after that he turned Eä as real as the Ainur, something odd like that but the message is clear. I don't think thia changes much but felt like pointing that out.
.
.
Hellbeast
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Wouldn’t that imply the Ainur aren’t Low 2-C tho?
We also apparently misconstrued the moving thing
Experiment12
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『Cosmology』
At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].
• The Silmarillion
• The Hobbits
• The Lord of the Rings
• The Children of Húrin
• Beren and Lúthien
• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series
• Unfinished Tales
• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)
[1]
And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]
●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●
Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.
First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
[2]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[3]
https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]
https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]
https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]
https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]
And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]
And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]
Juga, Middle-Earth di JRR Tolkien, dia mengikuti Mitologi Norse yang merupakan "Alam Semesta" dengan penjelasan itu, juga, memiliki Arti yang sama, dengan "Arda" yang mengacu pada "Alam Semesta" dalam Mitologi Norse, bukan hanya Titik Semesta, dengan penjelasan itu. [4]
https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]
Versi lain dari Tolkien's Legendarium, menjelaskan bahwa terdapat alam semesta dalam jumlah yang tidak terbatas, (Indefinite) sebagai realisasi dari penglihatan makhluk Ainur (Malaikat), yang membuat Struktur Kosmologis yang dimiliki JRR Tolkien Fiction menjadi Multiverse + (2A) , yang bisa menjadi patokan Valinor dan Rumah Tom Bombadil, "membuka seolah-olah itu adalah jendela ke sistem lain".
Maaf saya bukan orang Inggris jadi saya menggunakan google translate
untuk semua moderatornya for all moderators vs battle and lotr supporters maybe this will be Eru Ilúvatar 2-A
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I posted a series of quotes above.
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Yeah, this was one of the things I changed my mind on that I intended to bring up later. Alongside a change to our current 3-A scaling.
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Potentially. There is a lot of wording about the Ainur being above time and reality in their origin, but I'll have to go over it to see if it justifies keeping Low 2-C. There's also some specific wording that says the Ainur became bound to the confines of the world in regard to their power (alongside their person), which would also potentially keep them at that tier.
Also, the moving thing? I'm too sure what that’s referring to, but if you're talking about the star and moon moving thing from Death Battle, we don't use them as far I know.
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『Cosmology』
At first, I want to explain all the Cosmology in J.R.R Tolkien's fiction [1].
• The Silmarillion
• The Hobbits
• The Lord of the Rings
• The Children of Húrin
• Beren and Lúthien
• The History of Middle-earth - a twelve-volume series
• Unfinished Tales
• The Fall of Gondolin (2018)
[1]
And many more, some of J.R.R Tolkien's Legendary Fiction in the form of a timeline, to see complete information, go to
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/ [1]
●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●—●
Okay, now let's go straight to the starting point or the smallest point of Cosmology which is quite variable, let's get straight to it.
First, we start from the "Plain" (universally can be called "Earth"), the following can be seen from the photos from the Books directly exposed below [2]
[2]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[3]
https://gyazo.com/e451355f36533c79957c0f9ec27a5464 [4]
https://gyazo.com/aac0c6597a7d47d8a2e8784cb4088b91 [4]
https://imgur.com/xd4sNgu[4]
https://gyazo.com/cf0b2e91d9889f490c882cf05c507f6b [4]
And don't forget, if the Solar System in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction is not much different from the others, it has the Sun and the Moon too. [3]
And yes, continue to "[2]", the Universe in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction has Spatio+Temporal, which has time and space as well as the Fate of Gandalf Greyhame who after Death (Failed in battle against Durin's Bane) and is going through the Reincarnation Process, he millions of years have been thrown and explored the Universe, and also, I have given many Maps to the Earth in J.R.R Tolkien Fiction, introduce, The Beauty and Structure of the Universe in The Lord Of The Rings, Visualized with Middle-earth's name as Universes 001 (early) introduced by Tolkien, and with the description of the Structure (which was explained earlier), Middle-earth has the L2C Structure. [4]
Also, Middle-Earth in J.R.R Tolkien, he follows in Norse Mythology which is the "Universe" with that explanation, also, has the same Meaning, with "Arda" which refers to "Universes" in Norse Mythology, not just a Point of The Universes, with that explanation. [4]
https://imgur.com/a/gHg6kOD [5]
Another version of Tolkien's Legendarium, explains that there is an unlimited quantity of universes, (Indefinite) as the realization of the vision of an Ainur (Angel) creature, which makes the Cosmological structure owned by J.R.R Tolkien Fiction become the Multiverse + (2A), which can be became the benchmark for Valinor and Tom Bombadil's Home, "opens as if it were a window into some other system".
Sorry I'm not English so I used google translate
I've already commented on your post above. You don't need to post it twice.
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@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa @GreatIskandar14045
We would greatly appreciate your input here.
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Basically, should we upgrade Eru Ilúvatar to Low 1-C?
Experiment12
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where i didn't see it
Experiment12
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Saya hanya memberi tahu AndaI'm just letting you know so I'm sorry because I don't accept that Ilúvatar is downgraded to low 2-c
Experiment12
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maybe I will oppose this, you can see the cosmology that I have given above
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The wording makes it difficult to be clear (Tolkien afterall) but it appears Eru doesn't consider it as fiction, but at the same time, sustains it as mere thought.
The Ainur are all parts of his thought/born of his thought, and the world itself is sustained in Eru's thought (the wording here is that in Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”.)
Basically it's a thought to him.
I'm against making the Ainur High 3-A, they're either Low 2-C (I'll present my case for keeping this to some extent) or they upscale to an unknown extent from their in Eä key.
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Experiment12
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Hello Tyranno223I agree with you, it should be Eru Ilúvatar. Possibility of tier 2-B to 2-A, you can see the cosmology that I gave
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2-B to 2-A I've already disagreed with as the statement referred to an indefinite space around Arda. This would be Eä, the material universe.
However, I do agree Low 1-C might be possible (much to my surprise), depending on how it's evaluated.
Experiment12
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btw, it's not the infinite space, and for reason Low 1-c In lord of the rings there is a Multi-Temporal structure. Structure 2A is accommodated by something that is atleast 4x bigger than 2A, and this Structural is accommodated again with something called Void. Maybe like this I can't explain too much it will get complicated
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It is probably best if you do not post nearly as often to this thread anymore Thedent, as the knowledgeable and experienced members in this thread need to properly evaluate all of the relevant information here.
Experiment12
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Why do I apologize if I speak presumptuously, but I just want to tell you the facts if you don't believe me and I hope the Eru low 1-c upgrade fails.
Experiment12
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And I also want to gain experience in death battle, is that not allowed and interacting is also not allowed???
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It is allowed to gain experience is discussions, but if some posts are of comparatively low quality and derail from the main conversation, that is not a positive contribution pattern.
If you want to participate in versus threads, we have another forum for that instead.
If you want to participate in versus threads, we have another forum for that instead.
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In the meantime I suppose I'll just wait for the evaluation of Low 1-C Eru before going ahead with anything else. I still need to respond to some of Merchant's earlier points.
PrinceofPein
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I don’t see the low 1-C, it sounds flowery.
And not enough but I can see a low 2-C
And not enough but I can see a low 2-C
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