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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

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Tyranno223 said:
Well the One Ring cannot be harmed by Ancalagon due to the power used in making ut, with said power being usable by Sauron as long as he wears it (if not more, as it enhanced him). During the LA Sauron still had access to this power, even as his remaining innate power was largely crippled.

LA Sauron still has access to the power source that prevents Ancalagon from harming the Ring.
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I see what you mean. Under that logic, then, we'd need to scale anybody who scales to LA Sauron to "possibly High 3-A" if he still has full access to that power.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Can I get the full contexts of the quotes?
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Letter 328 of the Letters of Tolkien. There is a contents bit at the beginnings with shortcuts.

To Carole Batten-Phelps (draft) [19 Lakeside Road] in response to a letter she sent him. It regards the events of LOTR in the context of world, which is within the context of the wider universe.

"Of course the book was written to please myself (at different levels), and as an experiment in the arts of long narrative, and of inducing 'Secondary Belief. It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space. Very well: that may explain to some extent why it 'feels' like history; why it was accepted for publication; and why it has proved readable for a large number of very different kinds of people. But it does not fully explain what has actually happened. Looking back on the wholly unexpected things that have followed its publication – beginning at once with the appearance of Vol. I – I feel as if an ever darkening sky over our present world had been suddenly pierced, the clouds rolled back, and an almost forgotten sunlight had poured down again. As if indeed the horns of Hope had been heard again, as Pippin heard them suddenly at the absolute nadir of the fortunes of the West. But How? and Why? I think I can now guess what Gandalf would reply."

Notably, Tolkien wrote LOTR as a mythological past to our world, if you wonder why he says "our Middle-Earth"
 
Tyranno223 said:
Letter 328 of the Letters of Tolkien. There is a contents bit at the beginnings with shortcuts.

To Carole Batten-Phelps (draft) [19 Lakeside Road] in response to a letter she sent him. It regards the events of LOTR in the context of world, which is within the context of the wider universe.

"Of course the book was written to please myself (at different levels), and as an experiment in the arts of long narrative, and of inducing 'Secondary Belief. It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space. Very well: that may explain to some extent why it 'feels' like history; why it was accepted for publication; and why it has proved readable for a large number of very different kinds of people. But it does not fully explain what has actually happened. Looking back on the wholly unexpected things that have followed its publication – beginning at once with the appearance of Vol. I – I feel as if an ever darkening sky over our present world had been suddenly pierced, the clouds rolled back, and an almost forgotten sunlight had poured down again. As if indeed the horns of Hope had been heard again, as Pippin heard them suddenly at the absolute nadir of the fortunes of the West. But How? and Why? I think I can now guess what Gandalf would reply."

Notably, Tolkien wrote LOTR as a mythological past to our world, if you wonder why he says "our Middle-Earth"
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This is not really a direct statement, it is more of a flowery answer to the question is it not?
He is talking about writing it as a story to 'our own' limitless time and space
 
PrinceofPein said:
This is not really a direct statement, it is more of a flowery answer to the question is it not?
He is talking about writing it as a story to 'our own' limitless time and space
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No, he's saying it's a snapshot within Middle-Earth, which is within a wider universe. It's quite blatant.
 
Tyranno223 said:
No, he's saying it's a snapshot within Middle-Earth, which is within a wider universe. It's quite blatant.
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Yes that is the point "the middle earth is a place within a wider universe" but not to be taken literally that space and time are limitless based on the context, like I said it was a reply to a question.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Yes that is the point "the middle earth is a place within a wider universe" but not to be taken literally that space and time are limitless based on the context, like I said it was a reply to a question.
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It is a blatant statement though? I don't get why you're trying to take it as not literal when Tolkien is emphasising the setting of LOTR as a snapshot in Arda, which is in a wider universe that spans limitlessly. It is very blatant.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Yes that is the point "the middle earth is a place within a wider universe" but not to be taken literally that space and time are limitless based on the context, like I said it was a reply to a question.
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I have to agree with Tyranno. I really don't see that this context would remove the significance from Tolkien's description of how Middle-earth relates to physical space around it.
 
Any of you to discuss conceptual manipulation type, and resistance to conceptual manipulation.

Edit: For Ainur
 
I'm going to make this post just to lay the "flowery" debate to rest.

"I am very grateful for your remarks on the critics and for your account of your personal delight in The Lord of the Rings. You write in terms of such high praise that [to] accept it with just a 'thank you' might seem complacently conceited, though actually it only makes me wonder how this has been achieved – by me!"​

Letter 328 is a response to o Carole Batten-Phelps' remarks on LOTR as a work. It regards the world of LOTR as the subject matter.

"Of course the book was written to please myself (at different levels), and as an experiment in the arts of long narrative, and of inducing 'Secondary Belief. It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space."​

The work is a snippet (frameless picture, searchlight) on "a brief episode in history" on a "small part of our Middle-earth" which is surrounded by "limitless extensions in time and space."

It is a snippet on a part of Middle-Earth which is in a limitlessly extending universe. "our Middle-earth" does not refer to our world (in reality), it refers to Arda. For Tolkien, Arda is a mythological past of our world (in fiction).

Letter 165 is an example of this. In it, he says

"It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world. ​

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison).4 It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet"​
​
Letter 211 says this sort of thing again
"I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'. I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place"​

Moreover, the Hobbit explicitly says this.

"This is a story of long ago. At that time the languages and letters were quite different from ours of today. English is used to represent the languages. But two points may be noted. (1) In English the only correct plural of dwarf is dwarfs, and the adjective is dwarfish. In this story dwarves and dwarvish are used 1 , but only when speaking of the ancient people to whom Thorin Oakenshield and his companions belonged. (2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind."​

Thus, when Tolkien says "our Middle-earth", he is specifically talking about the topic of LOTR as a snapshot of the world it is in, which is itself within a limitlessly large universe. Moreover, why else would he say Middle-earth if he was not referring to Arda? As a master of language, Tolkien is very specific when he is discussing a topic, albeit occasionally long-winded.

This is not some flowery writing, it is specifically about the place of LOTR in relation to the wider reality it is in, as we have noted above. I cannot explain how blatant this statement is without going even more specific and pointing out every single word and its meaning to you.
 
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As I've mentioned I more or less agree with the scaling, some stuff is obviously messy since the Legendarium isn't straightforward like modern verses, good example are the Nazgûl.

Tolkien himself says the Nazgûl don't have great physical power but their true power lies in fear, which makes sense. Nazgûl fear aura routinely routed armies in the books, and routing armies is consistently done by powerful beings in Tolkien's legendarium.

But yeah, the most powerful Elves seemingly hang with the most powerful Maia and can even defeat them albeit very difficult and usually in the cost of their lives.

Silmaril scaling is also pretty clear cut + Melians Girdle as well.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
As I've mentioned I more or less agree with the scaling, some stuff is obviously messy since the Legendarium isn't straightforward like modern verses, good example are the Nazgûl.
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I certainly agree there. Tolkien is very difficult to evaluate in a battle boarding way, especially since characters like orcs can threaten Noldor lords like Finrod or even Feanor.
TheMerchant66 said:
Tolkien himself says the Nazgûl don't have great physical power but their true power lies in fear, which makes sense. Nazgûl fear aura routinely routed armies in the books, and routing armies is consistently done by powerful beings in Tolkien's legendarium.#
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I did note this in the discussion thread, but their showings do contradict Tolkien's statements consistently enough for me to believe they can be downscale from Glorfindel and co. Albeit, by a substantial amount, as anywhere from 5-9 Nazgul are needed to confront one character of that level.
TheMerchant66 said:
But yeah, the most powerful Elves seemingly hang with the most powerful Maia and can even defeat them albeit very difficult and usually in the cost of their lives.

Silmaril scaling is also pretty clear cut + Melians Girdle as well.
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Thanks again. I guess that resolves the scaling issue for the most part. Just waiting on staff evaluation now.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I'm going to make this post just to lay the "flowery" debate to rest.

"I am very grateful for your remarks on the critics and for your account of your personal delight in The Lord of the Rings. You write in terms of such high praise that [to] accept it with just a 'thank you' might seem complacently conceited, though actually it only makes me wonder how this has been achieved – by me!"​

Letter 328 is a response to o Carole Batten-Phelps' remarks on LOTR as a work. It regards the world of LOTR as the subject matter.

"Of course the book was written to please myself (at different levels), and as an experiment in the arts of long narrative, and of inducing 'Secondary Belief. It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space."​

The work is a snippet (frameless picture, searchlight) on "a brief episode in history" on a "small part of our Middle-earth" which is surrounded by "limitless extensions in time and space."

It is a snippet on a part of Middle-Earth which is in a limitlessly extending universe. "our Middle-earth" does not refer to our world (in reality), it refers to Arda. For Tolkien, Arda is a mythological past of our world (in fiction).

Letter 165 is an example of this. In it, he says

"It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world. ​

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison).4 It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet"​
​
Letter 211 says this sort of thing again
"I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'. I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place"​

Moreover, the Hobbit explicitly says this.

"This is a story of long ago. At that time the languages and letters were quite different from ours of today. English is used to represent the languages. But two points may be noted. (1) In English the only correct plural of dwarf is dwarfs, and the adjective is dwarfish. In this story dwarves and dwarvish are used 1 , but only when speaking of the ancient people to whom Thorin Oakenshield and his companions belonged. (2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind."​

Thus, when Tolkien says "our Middle-earth", he is specifically talking about the topic of LOTR as a snapshot of the world it is in, which is itself within a limitlessly large universe. Moreover, why else would he say Middle-earth if he was not referring to Arda? As a master of language, Tolkien is very specific when he is discussing a topic, albeit occasionally long-winded.

This is not some flowery writing, it is specifically about the place of LOTR in relation to the wider reality it is in, as we have noted above. I cannot explain how blatant this statement is without going even more specific and pointing out every single word and its meaning to you.
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Am I misinterpreting? It will get key 2-A in infinite existence in 3-D Space + 1-D time, being the coordinate axis R^4.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Here is the agreed upon scaling . It will be an abridged version, so please check the discussion thread for the full process if you are curious. It's from post #50 onwards, till roughly #91.

#55 to #73 can largely be skipped, although there is some discussion at #62 to #69.

The rest is from #74 to #76, and then #90 to #91

For clarity, this is not necessarily a straight line from strongest to weakest, but broken up into comparable groups).

Valar tier
The Valar unquestionably scale to High 3-A as they are the ones who are stated to be able to affect the entire LOTR universe.

The Aratar are notably above the Lesser Valar, as the Silmarillion outright says that they were "surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä."

Thus the Aratar are notably above baseline High 3-A. The Valar themselves vary in might, so individual lesser Valar are above other members of the Valar.

Greater Maiar tier
As the "Greater Maiar/Mayar" are said to be comparable to the Valar in potency (albeit weaker), they thus somewhat downscale from the Lesser Valar, but should still be High 3-A. Thus, those who are comparable to them should also scale.

Eonwe and Ilmarë are stated to be chief among the Maiar, making them the highest of their order. They are thus top of the Greater Maiar scaling chain.

Ossë is the next most notable Greater Maia, as he was desired as a weapon against Ulmo, the third greatest of the Aratar. While it is unlikely that he was anywhere near Ulmo in might, he must at least have been comparable to one of the Valar to even have a chance of affecting Ulmo's domination of the waters.

Sauron is notable for being part of two scaling chains. But for this chain, he is:
  • The greatest Maia of Melkor/Morgoth's forces, with the Fallen Maiar/Umaiar being the chief reason why the First Dark Lord could clash with the Valar and Faithful Maiar.
  • Various texts have also referred to him as a "greater spirit", with spirits referring to the Maiar in this context (for clarity, the Balrogs were noted as lesser, with even lower ones taking the form of powerful orcs).
  • Finally, as Ossë was temporarily a servant of Melkor/Morgoth, it is possible Sauron scales above him as the greatest fallen Maia.
  • In the Second Age, Sauron is noted to have become stronger than Morgoth at his weakest, with the Ring then enhancing him further.
Ungoliant
  • Completely overpowers a Morgoth who has only recently begun weakening by a noteworthy degree.

Luthien was able to affect both a weakened Morgoth and Sauron with her power. However, Luthien notably lacks any physical feats as she performs her actions through the employment of "magic"
  • Luthien manages to use a song of power to lull Morgoth to sleep, albeit with the aid of the 3 Silmarils.
  • Luthien manages to debilitate Sauron with fatigue and blindness, albeit temporarily. In comparison, Finrod Felagund was unable to counter Sauron's spells while Luthien is able to affect him while in the middle of fainting.
  • Luthien also manages to command Carcharoth to sleep with a command.
Melian has a few reasons for reaching this level, as she performs several notable feats and scales off other characters.
  • She repulses Ungoliant, who while likely weakened from her repulsing by a weakened Morgoth and his Balrogs, should not have been too much weaker as she took no real damage from the Balrogs' attacks.
  • She was the original chief of the Maiar who later became the Istari. The Istari are noted as "mighty" among the Maiar, and peers of Sauron in his origin.
  • Melian's protection kept Luthien safe from Angband, putting her above her daughter.
Carcharoth
  • In his first key, he should be comparable to Huon, as he was set to guard against the Hound of Valinor. Huan physically overpowered Sauron, albeit a Sauron who had been temporarily blinded and fatigued by Luthien, and had slain Drauglin, the first Werewolf.
  • In his second key, he physically slays Huon (while getting slain in return) and has grown notably stronger due to devouring a Silmaril. Silmarils are gems that not even the Valar can recreate. The Silmarils are capable of burn the unholy, with even Morgoth (who was only just beginning to weaken to a notable degree) being permanently burned by their touch, and later sent to sleep with their aid. The Silmaril make him even stronger, but also insane with pain.

Fingolfin
  • Said to be the physically strongest of the Noldor, putting his striking and lifting strength above all other Noldor.
  • Successfully maims Morgoth during their duel, causing him to sustain permanent injuries and have a limp till his bodily death. He also continues to fight after tanking several direct hits from Morgoth. As noted earlier, Morgoth was above First Age Sauron even at his weakest
  • Note: despite being enraged to such an extent he seemed to resemble a Vala, Fingolfin does not get any power from rage. No statements of power increases are associated with his ability to cripple Morgoth.

Fëanor
  • As the mightiest and greatest of the Incarnates (humans, elves, dwarves, etc), he should be above the likes of Luthien and Fingolfin
  • Does remarkably well against the armies of Angband with only a small retinue, with it taking all the Balrogs joining the battle for him to finally be slain.

Finrod (best Noldo deserves profile)
  • Magically duels Sauron in an extended battle (I love this). He later physically rips a Werewolf to shreds.
  • Note, while he does almost die to orcs in one battle, it is an absolute outlier considering how Elven Lords can battle Balrogs who can physically shatter mountainsides while dying and help create storms that crown mountaintops. Plus, it has been noted that some orcs during the First Age were actually lesser Maiar taking the form of orcs.

Thorondor (no profile)
  • His claws permanently marred Morgoth's face with his claws. The mightiest Great Eagle, who are Maiar servants of Manwë

Morgoth (Following his corruption of Eä)
  • As noted, even at his weakest he was stronger than Sauron during the First Age.
  • Neither Luthien or Huon dared to face him and his court while he was awake

Probably Greater Maiar Tier

Arien is when we come to the less solid scaling
  • A weakened Morgoth, who should logically be stronger than he was at the end of the First Age, feared Arien's power + was said to lack the power to overcome her. However, in the context of the statement, he was shown attacking Tilion (the Maia guarding the Moon, while Arien guards the Sun) with spirits, implying he was no longer able to attack at such range (he was becoming increasingly more restricted and tied to his body)
  • Thus, it is suggestible that she is "possibly High 3-A", but she should probably not have a solid rating.
  • Her current tier relies on her being certainly a "Greater Maia" so it should probably be changed to "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A probably High 3-A" as Ancalagon has no real relation to her anymore. She still scales above Elven Lords and Tilion. The 7-A part will come from something lower down.
Gothmog
  • Gothmog is the one to put the finishing blow on Fëanor, however, the High Elf was already very wounded from an extended battle against the hosts of Angband.
  • Notably, Fëanor was burned and bound by the flaming whips of the Balrogs, while also being wounded during the battle with the orcs and Balrogs, making the whole thing a giant potential outlier, or the result of his heat resistance failing (which is notable, as he forges the Silmarils with the light of the Two Trees, with the younger tree being said to emanate a heat so great only the likes of Arien or the Valar could be near it without harm).
  • However, Gothmog blatantly smites him "to the ground", showing he physically kills him. The fact he is the outright named individual to do damage here may make him an exception to the outliers of this battle, as well as the possibility of Fëanor only being harmed due to heat.
Ecthelion (no profile)
  • Kills Gothmog and gets killed by him in return during an extended battle.

At most Greater Maiar Tier

The Istari in Valinor (Gandalf and Saruman)

The reasons here are two fold:
  1. The Istari are described as mighty for members of the Maiar, possibly referring to the concept of Greater Maiar
  2. The Istari are peers of Sauron in his origin (in regards to might). While Sauron did get stronger after entering Melkor's service, it is unknown to what extent.
Neither two reasons are particularly solid, but do suggest that they might be comparable to First Age Sauron, who is a solid Greater Maia.

Now, that's the High 3-A stuff covered. However, the scaling revision does cover more than that, as we discussed the rest of the High Elves, the Nazgûl, Istari, and Sauron during the Later Second + Third Ages.

Ancalagon Tier

Ancalagon... it's self explanatory, but he scales to his own feat where he destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim just by falling.
  • However, it is notable that Eärendil possessed a Silmaril on his brow while fighting the dragon, and that Thorondor was part of the battle in the skies.
  • Yet, as the Silmaril is not described as being used offensively against Ancalagon, and as Thorondor is not mentioned to personally confront Ancalagon, a "likely far higher" rating seems preferable here.
  • Thus he would see little change, but the amendment of "likely higher" to "likely far higher"

Sauron (LA)
  • During the Last Alliance, Sauron was still recovering from both Númenor's destruction, and the power he had exerted to corrupt the island. He was thus severely weakened.
  • Sauron was still in possession of the One Ring however, which had such might in it, that Gandalf says that not even the flames of Ancalagon the Black could even scratch the Ring.
  • He thus scales notably above Ancalagon in this key.

Gil-Galad and Elendil (no profile)
  • Both are said to be unstoppable during the War of the Last Alliance, with the armies of Sauron having the Nazgûl and the Witch-King in their ranks at the time.
  • During a duel with Sauron, while both of them die, the two successfully down Sauron, either mortally wounding his body or outright killing him, depending on context.
  • In a statement about Galadriel, she is notably only called the greatest Noldo alive in Middle-Earth following Gil-Galad's death.

Third Age

Sauron (TA)
  • Far weaker than he ever was before during this period, but still strong enough to perform this feat as a mere message. Due to the casual nature of the feat, I suggest he should have an "At least" added to his 7-A, especially as the 7-A scaling chain will be extended in this revision.
  • Considered by Gandalf the White to be stronger than him.

Gandalf the White
  • Successfully duels with Sauron over Amon Hen in a spiritual/mental clash that results in a stalemate, albeit with Gandalf utterly exhausted by the effort.
  • Considers himself to be mightier than all other beings in Middle-Earth except Sauron during the Two Towers, with the Witch-King being his only rival during the Return of the King.
  • He is thus comparable to Sauron, but notably weaker.
The Witch-King
  • He should gain two keys.
  • The first key upscales from the Nazgûl, as he is considered more powerful than any of them (more on that later).
  • The second key is comparable to Gandalf the White, as Tolkien notes that Sauron granted him an "added demonic force" for him to match the White Wizard.

Glorfindel
  • His first key directly scales to the Balrogs, as he defeats one before they both fall to their deaths.
  • His second key upscales massively from the Balrogs, as he is said to have become far stronger and more "sanctified". He is directly compared to the Maiar of Valinor, being nigh-equal to those he befriended. This includes Olorin, who may or may not be a Greater Maia.
    • The former feat likely puts him above Gandalf the Grey, although Balrogs can vary in strength
  • However, as it is either unclear whether Olorin was befriended at all, or if Olorin was befriended following said statement in the chronology, he only likely compares to the Maia. Moreover, as the TA lacks the necessary feats to support a proper scaling to High 3-A, only has one potential link to that scaling, and as said link is itself shaky, we propose he should only have "likely far higher rating"
  • He would thus be "At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-A, likely far higher". Sauron and those who scale to him would also have "likely far higher" added to their solid 7-A rating.
Galadriel
  • Considered to be the greatest living member of the Noldor in Middle-Earth, putting her above Glorfindel.
  • None of Mordor's forces can defeat her without Sauron personally attempting to confront her (see Appendices).
Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • The Greatest of the Istari, and the most powerful of the order (note, this is only for their Istari key, he and Gandalf are peers in their origin).
    • In the book, Gandalf doesn't even bother to fight him but willingly submits to imprisonment
  • Potentially the most powerful member of the White Council, which would put him above Galadriel.
    • "It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur" can mean it was by his method, plan, etc.
    • Saruman was the head of the White Council, although it was an elected thing.
    • Superior to Gandalf, who can be argued to be above or below Galadriel and Glorfindel, depending on how you interpret events.
Gandalf the Grey
  • Manages to kill a Balrog, although he dies shortly after
  • Holds his own against the combined might of the Nine at night, although he needs to flee immediately following.
    • In the day, they refused to even face his wrath, although this may be partly due to his prodigious usage of fire, a thing they fear.
    • Notably, the combined might of Aragorn and Glorfindel were considerd to be unable to stop the Nazgûl on foot during the day, but this may refer to the Nine being able to bypass the pair due to being on horseback. The language mentions both "overtake" and "oppose" in reference to their inability, implying it could be both.
  • Is noted by Tolkien to be the only one out of Elrond, Galadriel, and himself to be able to face Sauron (in a hypothetical scenario where the three had mastered the One Ring) and have a 50/50 chance to win.
  • Aragorn states "I do not know of anything else that could have hindered him, except the Enemy himself" in regards to Mordor's forces, although the Witch-King was yet to become as strong as he was later, and this could also refer to his ability to escape the Nine (as he can only face their totality for a single night).

Balrogs
  • Comparabale to Gandalf the Grey, give or take a bit.
  • Also comparable to Glorfindel's first key

Nazgûl
  • Despite being said to be physically unimpressive against the fearless, they do notably downscale from various powerful characters.
  • The combined might of the Nine is too much for Gandalf the Grey to face at night, and the Witch-King was merely the most powerful of their number during this time, rather than a peer of someone like Gandalf the White.
  • The Nine during day are able to overcome the combined force of Aragorn and Glorfindel.
  • They are thus also within the same tier as the above, albeit notably downscaling.

Aragorn
  • Aragorn is not a normal human for the record, but a descendent of Elendil and the one of the Dúnedain
  • The Unfinished Tales specify that if Aragorn was present when the Nazgûl attacked the Rangers to enter the Shire, they may have been able to repulse the Nine, implying their comparabilty.
  • Aragorn even repulses 5 of the Nine atop Weathertop, including the Witch-King.
    • While he did use fire, unlike in the Movie, Nazgûl are not especially weak to fire in the same way (they don't instantly ignite), but rather are afraid of it. The rangers likely could have easily repulsed the Nazgûl if they were so vulnerable, given Aragorn and the Hobbits can make a fire in but a few moments, Dúnedain rangers with similar training to Aragorn should be able to do the same quite quickly.
    • Moreover, Nazgûl are willing to overcome their fear to hunt foes, such as when they overcame their fear of water to cross many rivers (they fear a lot of things).
  • Aragorn later even attempts to join Gandalf in his duel with the Balrog, although he had Andúril at this point, and Boromir was attempting to do the same, despite being unable to hurt a Troll with his sword (although this is less of a strength issue but a weapon one as Frodo could harm the Troll with Sting, despite Boromir being one of the most physically impressive members of the Fellowship).
  • Aragorn thus upscales from the Nazgûl and Witch-King (first key), with one of Tolkien's notes apparently having the Witch-King view Aragorn as a "great power".
    • He's also never harmed in the Books, so he lacks notable anti-feats. Plus Elendil already scales higher despite being a human as well (albeit a Númenórean), while humans have done many other feats, such as Turin who kills Glaurung with his sword, Hurin who kills dozens of trolls with an axe, and others.


Summary (not in order of strength)

High 3-A:
  • The Aratar
  • Lesser Valar
  • Eonwe and Ilmarë
  • Ossë
  • Sauron (First and Second Ages)
  • Ungoliant
  • Luthien
  • Melian
  • Carcharoth
  • Huon
  • Fingolfin
  • Fëanor
  • Thorondor
At least Low 7-B, possibly High 3-A:
  • Arien
  • Gothmog
  • Ecthelion

At least 7-A, at most High 3-A
  • The Istari

At least High 7-A, likely far figher
  • Ancalagon
  • Sauron (LA)
  • Gil-Galad and Elendil

At least 7-A, likely far higher
  • Sauron (TA)
  • Gandalf the White
  • The Witch-King (ROTK)

At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-A, likely far higher
  • Glorfindel
  • Galadriel
  • Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • Gandalf the Grey
  • Balrogs
  • Aragorn
  • The Nazgûl (including the Witch-King)
  • Tilion (his position in the scaling does not change at all from what it is).
Click to expand...
Bump.
 
QrowBarr said:
The proposed revisions + new scaling chain looks pretty good
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. For the record, the Last Alliance section just got updated to "possibly High 3-A" due to Sauron still having the One Ring, and we may see Ancalagon get an "at most High 3-A" depending on if we have Glaurung solidly (or unsolidly) upscale from Gothmog.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I'm not sure I understand why that puts a cap on Ancalagon.
Click to expand...
Since we lifted the cap, how do you think we should have Glaurung (and thus Ancalagon) scale?

I personally don't want to give him a "possibly" as we never see Gothmog directly compared, only generic Balrogs. I'm in favour with an "at most".
 
Dinamic8000 said:
Also seems good to me, although it is crazy to think that this will make the future profiles of Azaghâl and Túrin also 3-A tier, the first age heroes were sure on another level
Click to expand...
They really were built different. Hurin would also scale above all humans (due to being the strongest), so he would also be High 3-A.

Strangely, Elendil is probably gonna be one of the highest in scaling, due to directly scaling to LA Sauron, who is "possibly High 3-A", while Turin would be "At Most"
 
Tyranno223 said:
They really were built different. Hurin would also scale above all humans (due to being the strongest), so he would also be High 3-A.

Strangely, Elendil is probably gonna be one of the highest in scaling, due to directly scaling to LA Sauron, who is "possibly High 3-A", while Turin would be "At Most"
Click to expand...
Would it really be Turin himself scaling, or Gurthang?
 
The Moon and Sun
I was considering making this part of the earlier universal or scaling revisions, but at the time I lacked information, and the topic itself is a bit off the beaten track with the former.

In the Legendarium, the Moon and Sun are, at their core, the last two offspring of the Two Trees that shone across the world before the sun and moon (and provided their light so that the Silmarils could be made).

"Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold. "

"Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"

The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor​

Previously, this has been used to dismiss the possibility of scaling either object to 5-C or 4-C, but I do believe there is some counter-evidence for this.

The Moon
In LOTR, the Moon and Sun are not just the flower/fruit, but also the containers they are housed in. For Isil, aka the Moon, the container's descriptions are fairly congruent with our real world Moon.

Island
  • Starting off with some weaker evidence, the Moon is repeatedly described as an island, rather than as a ship or boat (as previously thought on this site).
    • "...he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • "...the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • Earlier versions also add some extra context with descriptions such as "...the youth who steered the floating island of the Moon was Tilion.", and while they are unapplicable, they help convey Tolkien's intent
  • Now, "island" on its own simply makes it clear that the vessel housing the Moon was not just some boat, but rather a landmass of unknown size. This is important in conjunction with later stuff.

Real-life phenomenon
  • Isil exhibits many of the same properties that are seen in our Moon.
    • In LOTR and the Silmarillion, the Moon is shown to wane or axe, and can be seen as a sickle
      • "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl’s command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon..." - The Silmarillion: Of Maeglin
      • "‘The Moon’s the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it’s out of its running, or I’m all wrong in my reckoning. You’ll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we’d been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country." - The Lord of the Rings: The Great River
      • "The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’"
      • On that note, it also has Lunar Cycles - "Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • The Moon is a light-reflector, not a light-giver (this is more contentious, as the narration implies it gives light, but Tolkien's notes, aka the authoritative and omniscient perspective, says it is the former)
      • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B
    • The Moon is "stained" with craters as time goes on (love this rendition).
      • "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone..." - The Lord of the Rings: A Journey in the Dark
    • The Moon is said to cause Solar Eclipses
      • "Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

The world of LOTR is meant to become parallel to our world
  • See this post
  • Essentially, as the world of LOTR is meant to become the same as our world in the future, it stands to reason that the Moon itself simply is the same as our Moon, at least on a physical level. Ignoring the fruit, we know the Moon is an island, presumably of rock, we know it has craters, we know it reflects light, and we know it follows Lunar cycles. It stands to reason that the Moon is simply our Moon that happens to also have a Maia that steers it, and a magically powerful fruit on it somewhere.

Thus the Moon is a landmass of some unknown size
The Moon exhibits the natural phenomenon our Moon does as well
The Moon is meant to be parallel with our word's Moon

The Moon: Scaling

So what does this affect? Tilion does not directly push the Moon, he merely steers it, and the Valar who made the Moon scale far above a mere Moon. However, Tilion does scale to the spirits that Morgoth sent to destroy the Moon, as he ultimately defeats them after an extended clash.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."

Now, there is a clear issue with directly scaling Tilion and the spirits to the Moon, as Morgoth specifically sent them to attack Tilion, but it is likely that they were also meant to destroy the Moon, as his specific source of strife was the existence of the Moon (and Sun) itself. Thus, while you may not want to directly scale Tilion to the Moon, he "likely" should.

In regards to who scales to Tilion and the Spririts, Arien is notably above Tilion, as Morgoth does not even entertain the idea of his spirits being able to assail her (and maybe even himself - see the scaling chain)

The Balrogs also likely scale to the spirits sent to assail Tilion, as spirits are usually in reference to Ainur (unless otherwise specified), and the Balrogs are considered to be some of the mightier Ainur under Morgoth's command
  • "And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days." - The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
    • An example of spirits as Ainur
  • "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
    • Dreadful - the ability to cause suffering - a trait that is worsened the more powerful one of the Fallen Maiar are, for instance, Sauron is the more terrible/dreadful of their number
  • "Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED - X: Orcs
    • "In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology'" - This section is on Tolkien's late writings, his final thoughts on the Legendarium
    • "I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs. It is necessary to explain something of the relations of this text." - Christopher describes this writing as a finished piece by Tolkien on the Orcs. It is thus relatively authoritative

If this is accepted, Tilion, and thus those who scale to or above him, would thus be something akin to

Low 7-B, possibly 7-A to 5-C, likely far higher

The "to 5-C" would apply to the TA Sauron, Ancalagon, and LA tiers as well

The Sun
This one is a bit more troublesome to directly scale. We have far less descriptions of the Sun itself, and any consideration of it as being akin to our Sun comes from the nature of the Legendarium's universe as largely the same as our own. Otherwise, we have already noted above that

  • The Sun is a light giver
  • Natural phenomenon like Solar Eclipses can occur

There is a bit to discuss however.
  • The Sun gives off immense heat
    • "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened. " - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
  • The Sun is not contained in a physical vessel, but a vessel of flame
    • Outside the immediate vessel containing just the flower, the Sun is essentially made of the flame of Arien, who transformed herself into a naked flame - "Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
      • Admittedly, this isn't a description of plasma or the like, but we are working with a fantastical setting, not a scientific one
    • This flame is immensely hot, being capable of scorching the Moon and Tilion as well - "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

However, I am rather iffy on the Sun itself, as there are evident and obvious issues with its depictions. I would say that the size is likely comparable to our Sun at least, given the IRL nature of the wider universe, but it's all rather troubled. I have no real suggestion here.

NOTE:
"But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them, and Aulë and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon."

This reference to vessels to hold and house the Sun and Moon are likely not the same as the vessels that Tilion and Arien steer. Their purposes are as vessels that preserve the fruit/flower, while the containers or vessels that are being steered are very much larger in size, to the point of being called an "island".

Alternatively, if you do argue they're the same, then they may just be far larger than an initial look would imply. Also, if you're concerned about size issues, I doubt we can really argue that the Moon would affect the gravity of Arda, when the First Age, aka the age it was made, had a flat world.

Moreover, Arien is the vessel who carries the Sun, so it could just be that she grew out the flame as she ascended into space.
 
Last edited:
Tyranno223 said:
The Moon and Sun
I was considering making this part of the earlier universal or scaling revisions, but at the time I lacked information, and the topic itself is a bit off the beaten track with the former.

In the Legendarium, the Moon and Sun are, at their core, the last two offspring of the Two Trees that shone across the world before the sun and moon (and provided their light so that the Silmarils could be made).

"Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold. "

"Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"

The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor​

Previously, this has been used to dismiss the possibility of scaling either object to 5-C or 4-C, but I do believe there is some counter-evidence for this.

The Moon
In LOTR, the Moon and Sun are not just the flower/fruit, but also the containers they are housed in. For Isil, aka the Moon, the container's descriptions are fairly congruent with our real world Moon.

Island
  • Starting off with some weaker evidence, the Moon is repeatedly described as an island, rather than as a ship or boat (as previously thought on this site).
    • "...he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • "...the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • Earlier versions also add some extra context with descriptions such as "...the youth who steered the floating island of the Moon was Tilion.", and while they are unapplicable, they help convey Tolkien's intent
  • Now, "island" on its own simply makes it clear that the vessel housing the Moon was not just some boat, but rather a landmass of unknown size. This is important in conjunction with later stuff.

Real-life phenomenon
  • Isil exhibits many of the same properties that are seen in our Moon.
    • In LOTR and the Silmarillion, the Moon is shown to wane or axe, and can be seen as a sickle
      • "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl’s command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon..." - The Silmarillion: Of Maeglin
      • "‘The Moon’s the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it’s out of its running, or I’m all wrong in my reckoning. You’ll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we’d been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country." - The Lord of the Rings: The Great River
      • "The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’"
      • On that note, it also has Lunar Cycles - "Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • The Moon is a light-reflector, not a light-giver (this is more contentious, as the narration implies it gives light, but Tolkien's notes, aka the authoritative and omniscient perspective, says it is the former)
      • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B
    • The Moon is "stained" with craters as time goes on (love this rendition).
      • "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone..." - The Lord of the Rings: A Journey in the Dark
    • The Moon is said to cause Solar Eclipses
      • "Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

The world of LOTR is meant to become parallel to our world
  • See this post
  • Essentially, as the world of LOTR is meant to become the same as our world in the future, it stands to reason that the Moon itself simply is the same as our Moon, at least on a physical level. Ignoring the fruit, we know the Moon is an island, presumably of rock, we know it has craters, we know it reflects light, and we know it follows Lunar cycles. It stands to reason that the Moon is simply our Moon that happens to also have a Maia that steers it, and a magically powerful fruit on it somewhere.

Thus the Moon is a landmass of some unknown size
The Moon exhibits the natural phenomenon our Moon does as well
The Moon is meant to be parallel with our word's Moon

The Moon: Scaling

So what does this affect? Tilion does not directly push the Moon, he merely steers it, and the Valar who made the Moon scale far above a mere Moon. However, Tilion does scale to the spirits that Morgoth sent to destroy the Moon, as he ultimately defeats them after an extended clash.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."

Now, there is a clear issue with directly scaling Tilion and the spirits to the Moon, as Morgoth specifically sent them to attack Tilion, but it is likely that they were also meant to destroy the Moon, as his specific source of strife was the existence of the Moon (and Sun) itself. Thus, while you may not want to directly scale Tilion to the Moon, he "likely" should.

In regards to who scales to Tilion and the Spririts, Arien is notably above Tilion, as Morgoth does not even entertain the idea of his spirits being able to assail her (and maybe even himself - see the scaling chain)

The Balrogs also likely scale to the spirits sent to assail Tilion, as spirits are usually in reference to Ainur (unless otherwise specified), and the Balrogs are considered to be some of the mightier Ainur under Morgoth's command
  • "And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days." - The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
    • An example of spirits as Ainur
  • "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
    • Dreadful - the ability to cause suffering - a trait that is worsened the more powerful one of the Fallen Maiar are, for instance, Sauron is the more terrible/dreadful of their number
  • "Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED - X: Orcs
    • "In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology'" - This section is on Tolkien's late writings, his final thoughts on the Legendarium
    • "I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs. It is necessary to explain something of the relations of this text." - Christopher describes this writing as a finished piece by Tolkien on the Orcs. It is thus relatively authoritative

If this is accepted, Tilion, and thus those who scale to or above him, would thus be something akin to

Low 7-B, possibly 7-A to 5-C, likely far higher

The "to 5-C" would apply to the TA Sauron, Ancalagon, and LA tiers as well

The Sun
This one is a bit more troublesome to directly scale. We have far less descriptions of the Sun itself, and any consideration of it as being akin to our Sun comes from the nature of the Legendarium's universe as largely the same as our own. Otherwise, we have already noted above that

  • The Sun is a light giver
  • Natural phenomenon like Solar Eclipses can occur

There is a bit to discuss however.
  • The Sun gives off immense heat
    • "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened. " - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
  • The Sun is not contained in a physical vessel, but a vessel of flame
    • Outside the immediate vessel containing just the flower, the Sun is essentially made of the flame of Arien, who transformed herself into a naked flame - "Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
      • Admittedly, this isn't a description of plasma or the like, but we are working with a fantastical setting, not a scientific one
    • This flame is immensely hot, being capable of scorching the Moon and Tilion as well - "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

However, I am rather iffy on the Sun itself, as there are evident and obvious issues with its depictions. I would say that the size is likely comparable to our Sun at least, given the IRL nature of the wider universe, but it's all rather troubled. I have no real suggestion here.

NOTE:
"But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them, and Aulë and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon."

This reference to vessels to hold and house the Sun and Moon are likely not the same as the vessels that Tilion and Arien steer. Their purposes are as vessels that preserve the fruit/flower, while the containers or vessels that are being steered are very much larger in size, to the point of being called an "island".

Alternatively, if you do argue they're the same, then they may just be far larger than an initial look would imply. Also, if you're concerned about size issues, I doubt we can really argue that the Moon would affect the gravity of Arda, when the First Age, aka the age it was made, had a flat world.

Moreover, Arien is the vessel who carries the Sun, so it could just be that she grew out the flame as she ascended into space.
Click to expand...
This works for me for the Moon scaling. I don't have issues for the Sun being at least 4-C, although it's probably a lot higher since it was one of the fruits of Laurelin that provided half of the light of High 3-A Silmarils.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
This works for me for the Moon scaling. I don't have issues for the Sun being at least 4-C, although it's probably a lot higher since it was one of the fruits of Laurelin that provided half of the light of High 3-A Silmarils.
Click to expand...
Well they are definitely potent due to their ancestry, with the Sun being able to burn beings like Tilion just by being near it, but the light is nowhere near as potent. Only the Silmarils could ever restore the Two Trees, and the light from the Sun and Moon are said to be nowhere near as brilliant as the Trees.

It's pretty unquantifiable, unless I'm missing something. The Sun doesn't scale to anyone regardless, other than Arien who likely makes up a significant portion of the Sun's actual mass (other than the fruit of course).
 
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