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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

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Not open for further replies.
Pretty much what Merchant says. They are absolutely unreliabt on Eä for their immortality. Again, I'm personally avoiding pushing ability revisions till I have a lot of them gathered up, but Immortality Type 9 is the more likely one.

They are intrinsically immortal, with no even another Ainu being capable of killing one of the Ainur. Doubly so, since Dagor Dagorath ain't canon.
 
Experiment12 said:
I just found some evidence for Ainur, Immortality Type 8 & 9.



"However, while cooking Eä, Ainur became attached to him" (He has Type 8 Immortality qualified in vsb).



"But they will not lose their true existence unless previously weakened". This means that it has weakened, the whereabouts of the real Ainur has not been found. It might qualify for Immortality Type 9.

Immortality

The concept of immortality in Arda is very complex, because it differs in nature between the races. Usually, however, it refers to the type of life possessed by...
tolkiengateway.net tolkiengateway.net



What's your responses? @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @Hellbeast
Click to expand...
Looks fine
 
Would Valar and Maiar have large size type 10 or 11 in their true forms? For existing in the same realm as Eru.
 
Gasper said:
No i am talking about how Eru has the whole universe inside his mind.
Click to expand...
Ah, well it's unclear how they compare to Eru in size. I suppose it's potentially true as they can perceive his whole body without noting him as excessively large, but they aren't given any statements of size.

In fact, they don't technically have any size at that stage, as they still preferred to stay as formless spirits during this time.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Ah, well it's unclear how they compare to Eru in size. I suppose it's potentially true as they can perceive his whole body without noting him as excessively large, but they aren't given any statements of size.

In fact, they don't technically have any size at that stage, as they still preferred to stay as formless spirits during this time.
Click to expand...
So possibly for Eru or are you completely disagreeing?
 
I suppose they should be comparable, but only possibly for the Ainur. Eru I suppose should be large size 8. He only has the one universe in his mind. Neither the potential wider cosmology or the Timeless Halls are housed in there.
 
Here is the agreed upon scaling . It will be an abridged version, so please check the discussion thread for the full process if you are curious. It's from post #50 onwards, till roughly #91.

#55 to #73 can largely be skipped, although there is some discussion at #62 to #69.

The rest is from #74 to #76, and then #90 to #91

For clarity, this is not necessarily a straight line from strongest to weakest, but broken up into comparable groups).

Valar tier
The Valar unquestionably scale to High 3-A as they are the ones who are stated to be able to affect the entire LOTR universe.

The Aratar are notably above the Lesser Valar, as the Silmarillion outright says that they were "surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä."

Thus the Aratar are notably above baseline High 3-A. The Valar themselves vary in might, so individual lesser Valar are above other members of the Valar.

Greater Maiar tier
As the "Greater Maiar/Mayar" are said to be comparable to the Valar in potency (albeit weaker), they thus somewhat downscale from the Lesser Valar, but should still be High 3-A. Thus, those who are comparable to them should also scale.

Eonwe and Ilmarë are stated to be chief among the Maiar, making them the highest of their order. They are thus top of the Greater Maiar scaling chain.

Ossë is the next most notable Greater Maia, as he was desired as a weapon against Ulmo, the third greatest of the Aratar. While it is unlikely that he was anywhere near Ulmo in might, he must at least have been comparable to one of the Valar to even have a chance of affecting Ulmo's domination of the waters.

Sauron is notable for being part of two scaling chains. But for this chain, he is:
  • The greatest Maia of Melkor/Morgoth's forces, with the Fallen Maiar/Umaiar being the chief reason why the First Dark Lord could clash with the Valar and Faithful Maiar.
  • Various texts have also referred to him as a "greater spirit", with spirits referring to the Maiar in this context (for clarity, the Balrogs were noted as lesser, with even lower ones taking the form of powerful orcs).
  • Finally, as Ossë was temporarily a servant of Melkor/Morgoth, it is possible Sauron scales above him as the greatest fallen Maia.
  • In the Second Age, Sauron is noted to have become stronger than Morgoth at his weakest, with the Ring then enhancing him further.
Ungoliant
  • Completely overpowers a Morgoth who has only recently begun weakening by a noteworthy degree.

Luthien was able to affect both a weakened Morgoth and Sauron with her power. However, Luthien notably lacks any physical feats as she performs her actions through the employment of "magic"
  • Luthien manages to use a song of power to lull Morgoth to sleep, albeit with the aid of the 3 Silmarils.
  • Luthien manages to debilitate Sauron with fatigue and blindness, albeit temporarily. In comparison, Finrod Felagund was unable to counter Sauron's spells while Luthien is able to affect him while in the middle of fainting.
  • Luthien also manages to command Carcharoth to sleep with a command.
Melian has a few reasons for reaching this level, as she performs several notable feats and scales off other characters.
  • She repulses Ungoliant, who while likely weakened from her repulsing by a weakened Morgoth and his Balrogs, should not have been too much weaker as she took no real damage from the Balrogs' attacks.
  • She was the original chief of the Maiar who later became the Istari. The Istari are noted as "mighty" among the Maiar, and peers of Sauron in his origin.
  • Melian's protection kept Luthien safe from Angband, putting her above her daughter.
Carcharoth
  • In his first key, he should be comparable to Huon, as he was set to guard against the Hound of Valinor. Huan physically overpowered Sauron, albeit a Sauron who had been temporarily blinded and fatigued by Luthien, and had slain Drauglin, the first Werewolf.
  • In his second key, he physically slays Huon (while getting slain in return) and has grown notably stronger due to devouring a Silmaril. Silmarils are gems that not even the Valar can recreate. The Silmarils are capable of burn the unholy, with even Morgoth (who was only just beginning to weaken to a notable degree) being permanently burned by their touch, and later sent to sleep with their aid. The Silmaril make him even stronger, but also insane with pain.

Fingolfin
  • Said to be the physically strongest of the Noldor, putting his striking and lifting strength above all other Noldor.
  • Successfully maims Morgoth during their duel, causing him to sustain permanent injuries and have a limp till his bodily death. He also continues to fight after tanking several direct hits from Morgoth. As noted earlier, Morgoth was above First Age Sauron even at his weakest
  • Note: despite being enraged to such an extent he seemed to resemble a Vala, Fingolfin does not get any power from rage. No statements of power increases are associated with his ability to cripple Morgoth.

Fëanor
  • As the mightiest and greatest of the Incarnates (humans, elves, dwarves, etc), he should be above the likes of Luthien and Fingolfin
  • Does remarkably well against the armies of Angband with only a small retinue, with it taking all the Balrogs joining the battle for him to finally be slain.

Finrod (best Noldo deserves profile)
  • Magically duels Sauron in an extended battle (I love this). He later physically rips a Werewolf to shreds.
  • Note, while he does almost die to orcs in one battle, it is an absolute outlier considering how Elven Lords can battle Balrogs who can physically shatter mountainsides while dying and help create storms that crown mountaintops. Plus, it has been noted that some orcs during the First Age were actually lesser Maiar taking the form of orcs.

Thorondor (no profile)
  • His claws permanently marred Morgoth's face with his claws. The mightiest Great Eagle, who are Maiar servants of Manwë

Morgoth (Following his corruption of Eä)
  • As noted, even at his weakest he was stronger than Sauron during the First Age.
  • Neither Luthien or Huon dared to face him and his court while he was awake

Probably Greater Maiar Tier

Arien is when we come to the less solid scaling
  • A weakened Morgoth, who should logically be stronger than he was at the end of the First Age, feared Arien's power + was said to lack the power to overcome her. However, in the context of the statement, he was shown attacking Tilion (the Maia guarding the Moon, while Arien guards the Sun) with spirits, implying he was no longer able to attack at such range (he was becoming increasingly more restricted and tied to his body)
  • Thus, it is suggestible that she is "possibly High 3-A", but she should probably not have a solid rating.
  • Her current tier relies on her being certainly a "Greater Maia" so it should probably be changed to "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A probably High 3-A" as Ancalagon has no real relation to her anymore. She still scales above Elven Lords and Tilion. The 7-A part will come from something lower down.
Gothmog
  • Gothmog is the one to put the finishing blow on Fëanor, however, the High Elf was already very wounded from an extended battle against the hosts of Angband.
  • Notably, Fëanor was burned and bound by the flaming whips of the Balrogs, while also being wounded during the battle with the orcs and Balrogs, making the whole thing a giant potential outlier, or the result of his heat resistance failing (which is notable, as he forges the Silmarils with the light of the Two Trees, with the younger tree being said to emanate a heat so great only the likes of Arien or the Valar could be near it without harm).
  • However, Gothmog blatantly smites him "to the ground", showing he physically kills him. The fact he is the outright named individual to do damage here may make him an exception to the outliers of this battle, as well as the possibility of Fëanor only being harmed due to heat.

Ecthelion (no profile)
  • Kills Gothmog and gets killed by him in return during an extended battle.

At most Greater Maiar Tier

The Istari in Valinor (Gandalf and Saruman)

The reasons here are two fold:
  1. The Istari are described as mighty for members of the Maiar, possibly referring to the concept of Greater Maiar
  2. The Istari are peers of Sauron in his origin (in regards to might). While Sauron did get stronger after entering Melkor's service, it is unknown to what extent.
Neither two reasons are particularly solid, but do suggest that they might be comparable to First Age Sauron, who is a solid Greater Maia.

Now, that's the High 3-A stuff covered. However, the scaling revision does cover more than that, as we discussed the rest of the High Elves, the Nazgûl, Istari, and Sauron during the Later Second + Third Ages.

Ancalagon Tier

Ancalagon... it's self explanatory, but he scales to his own feat where he destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim just by falling.
  • However, it is notable that Eärendil possessed a Silmaril on his brow while fighting the dragon, and that Thorondor was part of the battle in the skies.
  • Yet, as the Silmaril is not described as being used offensively against Ancalagon, and as Thorondor is not mentioned to personally confront Ancalagon, a "likely far higher" rating seems preferable here.
  • Thus he would see little change, but the amendment of "likely higher" to "likely far higher"

Sauron (LA)
  • During the Last Alliance, Sauron was still recovering from both Númenor's destruction, and the power he had exerted to corrupt the island. He was thus severely weakened.
  • Sauron was still in possession of the One Ring however, which had such might in it, that Gandalf says that not even the flames of Ancalagon the Black could even scratch the Ring.
  • He thus scales notably above Ancalagon in this key.

Gil-Galad and Elendil (no profile)
  • Both are said to be unstoppable during the War of the Last Alliance, with the armies of Sauron having the Nazgûl and the Witch-King in their ranks at the time.
  • During a duel with Sauron, while both of them die, the two successfully down Sauron, either mortally wounding his body or outright killing him, depending on context.
  • In a statement about Galadriel, she is notably only called the greatest Noldo alive in Middle-Earth following Gil-Galad's death.

Edit: As the One Ring possesses a significant portion of Sauron's innate might, Sauron during this age should possess it too. However, as he is weakened, and as we do not know how much power he specifically poured into the Ring, he should only "possibly" scale to High 3-A.

Third Age

Sauron (TA)
  • Far weaker than he ever was before during this period, but still strong enough to perform this feat as a mere message. Due to the casual nature of the feat, I suggest he should have an "At least" added to his 7-A, especially as the 7-A scaling chain will be extended in this revision.
  • Considered by Gandalf the White to be stronger than him.

Gandalf the White
  • Successfully duels with Sauron over Amon Hen in a spiritual/mental clash that results in a stalemate, albeit with Gandalf utterly exhausted by the effort.
  • Considers himself to be mightier than all other beings in Middle-Earth except Sauron during the Two Towers, with the Witch-King being his only rival during the Return of the King.
  • He is thus comparable to Sauron, but notably weaker.
The Witch-King
  • He should gain two keys.
  • The first key upscales from the Nazgûl, as he is considered more powerful than any of them (more on that later).
  • The second key is comparable to Gandalf the White, as Tolkien notes that Sauron granted him an "added demonic force" for him to match the White Wizard.

Glorfindel
  • His first key directly scales to the Balrogs, as he defeats one before they both fall to their deaths.
  • His second key upscales massively from the Balrogs, as he is said to have become far stronger and more "sanctified". He is directly compared to the Maiar of Valinor, being nigh-equal to those he befriended. This includes Olorin, who may or may not be a Greater Maia.
    • The former feat likely puts him above Gandalf the Grey, although Balrogs can vary in strength
  • However, as it is either unclear whether Olorin was befriended at all, or if Olorin was befriended following said statement in the chronology, he only likely compares to the Maia. Moreover, as the TA lacks the necessary feats to support a proper scaling to High 3-A, only has one potential link to that scaling, and as said link is itself shaky, we propose he should only have "likely far higher rating"
  • He would thus be "At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-A, likely far higher". Sauron and those who scale to him would also have "likely far higher" added to their solid 7-A rating.
Galadriel
  • Considered to be the greatest living member of the Noldor in Middle-Earth, putting her above Glorfindel.
  • None of Mordor's forces can defeat her without Sauron personally attempting to confront her (see Appendices).
Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • The Greatest of the Istari, and the most powerful of the order (note, this is only for their Istari key, he and Gandalf are peers in their origin).
    • In the book, Gandalf doesn't even bother to fight him but willingly submits to imprisonment
  • Potentially the most powerful member of the White Council, which would put him above Galadriel.
    • "It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur" can mean it was by his method, plan, etc.
    • Saruman was the head of the White Council, although it was an elected thing.
    • Superior to Gandalf, who can be argued to be above or below Galadriel and Glorfindel, depending on how you interpret events.
Gandalf the Grey
  • Manages to kill a Balrog, although he dies shortly after
  • Holds his own against the combined might of the Nine at night, although he needs to flee immediately following.
    • In the day, they refused to even face his wrath, although this may be partly due to his prodigious usage of fire, a thing they fear.
    • Notably, the combined might of Aragorn and Glorfindel were considerd to be unable to stop the Nazgûl on foot during the day, but this may refer to the Nine being able to bypass the pair due to being on horseback. The language mentions both "overtake" and "oppose" in reference to their inability, implying it could be both.
  • Is noted by Tolkien to be the only one out of Elrond, Galadriel, and himself to be able to face Sauron (in a hypothetical scenario where the three had mastered the One Ring) and have a 50/50 chance to win.
  • Aragorn states "I do not know of anything else that could have hindered him, except the Enemy himself" in regards to Mordor's forces, although the Witch-King was yet to become as strong as he was later, and this could also refer to his ability to escape the Nine (as he can only face their totality for a single night).

Balrogs
  • Comparabale to Gandalf the Grey, give or take a bit.
  • Also comparable to Glorfindel's first key

Glaurung
  • Upscales from the Balrogs, which should include Gothmog, but the comparison is never directly made, only the comparison between the dragon and generic Balrogs.
  • This will need further discussion.

Nazgûl
  • Despite being said to be physically unimpressive against the fearless, they do notably downscale from various powerful characters.
  • The combined might of the Nine is too much for Gandalf the Grey to face at night, and the Witch-King was merely the most powerful of their number during this time, rather than a peer of someone like Gandalf the White.
  • The Nine during day are able to overcome the combined force of Aragorn and Glorfindel.
  • They are thus also within the same tier as the above, albeit notably downscaling.

Aragorn
  • Aragorn is not a normal human for the record, but a descendent of Elendil and the one of the Dúnedain
  • The Unfinished Tales specify that if Aragorn was present when the Nazgûl attacked the Rangers to enter the Shire, they may have been able to repulse the Nine, implying their comparabilty.
  • Aragorn even repulses 5 of the Nine atop Weathertop, including the Witch-King.
    • While he did use fire, unlike in the Movie, Nazgûl are not especially weak to fire in the same way (they don't instantly ignite), but rather are afraid of it. The rangers likely could have easily repulsed the Nazgûl if they were so vulnerable, given Aragorn and the Hobbits can make a fire in but a few moments, Dúnedain rangers with similar training to Aragorn should be able to do the same quite quickly.
    • Moreover, Nazgûl are willing to overcome their fear to hunt foes, such as when they overcame their fear of water to cross many rivers (they fear a lot of things).
  • Aragorn later even attempts to join Gandalf in his duel with the Balrog, although he had Andúril at this point, and Boromir was attempting to do the same, despite being unable to hurt a Troll with his sword (although this is less of a strength issue but a weapon one as Frodo could harm the Troll with Sting, despite Boromir being one of the most physically impressive members of the Fellowship).
  • Aragorn thus upscales from the Nazgûl and Witch-King (first key), with one of Tolkien's notes apparently having the Witch-King view Aragorn as a "great power".
    • He's also never harmed in the Books, so he lacks notable anti-feats. Plus Elendil already scales higher despite being a human as well (albeit a Númenórean), while humans have done many other feats, such as Turin who kills Glaurung with his sword, Hurin who kills dozens of trolls with an axe, and others.


Summary (not in order of strength)

High 3-A:
  • The Aratar
  • Lesser Valar
  • Eonwe and Ilmarë
  • Ossë
  • Sauron (First and Second Ages)
  • Ungoliant
  • Luthien
  • Melian
  • Carcharoth
  • Huon
  • Fingolfin
  • Fëanor
  • Thorondor
At least Low 7-B, possibly High 3-A
  • Arien
  • Gothmog
  • Ecthelion

At least High 7-A, possibly High 3-A
  • Sauron (LA)
  • Gil-Galad and Elendil

At least 7-A, at most High 3-A
  • The Istari

At least High 7-A, likely far figher
  • Ancalagon

At least 7-A, likely far higher
  • Sauron (TA)
  • Gandalf the White
  • The Witch-King (ROTK)

At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-A, likely far higher
  • Glorfindel
  • Galadriel
  • Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • Gandalf the Grey
  • Balrogs
  • Aragorn
  • The Nazgûl (including the Witch-King)
  • Tilion (his position in the scaling does not change at all from what it is).
 
Last edited:
Tyranno223 said:
I suppose they should be comparable, but only possibly for the Ainur. Eru I suppose should be large size 8. He only has the one universe in his mind. Neither the potential wider cosmology or the Timeless Halls are housed in there.
Click to expand...
Not with types 8 and 9, because these two types have a number of dimensions that are still stuck in 4-D, while Eru is in the realm of 5 and 6-D, so it's very likely to get type 10.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Here is the agreed upon scaling . It will be an abridged version, so please check the discussion thread for the full process if you are curious. For clarity, this is not necessarily a straight line from strongest to weakest, but broken up into comparable groups).

Valar tier
The Valar unquestionably scale to High 3-A as they are the ones who are stated to be able to affect the entire LOTR universe.

The Aratar are notably above the Lesser Valar, as the Silmarillion outright says that they were "surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä."

Thus the Aratar are notably above baseline High 3-A. The Valar themselves vary in might, so individual lesser Valar are above other members of the Valar.

Greater Maiar tier
As the "Greater Maiar/Mayar" are said to be comparable to the Valar in potency (albeit weaker), they thus somewhat downscale from the Lesser Valar, but should still be High 3-A. Thus, those who are comparable to them should also scale.

Eonwe and Ilmarë are stated to be chief among the Maiar, making them the highest of their order. They are thus top of the Greater Maiar scaling chain.

Ossë is the next most notable Greater Maia, as he was desired as a weapon against Ulmo, the third greatest of the Aratar. While it is unlikely that he was anywhere near Ulmo in might, he must at least have been comparable to one of the Valar to even have a chance of affecting Ulmo's domination of the waters.

Sauron is notable for being part of two scaling chains. But for this chain, he is:
  • The greatest Maia of Melkor/Morgoth's forces, with the Fallen Maiar/Umaiar being the chief reason why the First Dark Lord could clash with the Valar and Faithful Maiar.
  • Various texts have also referred to him as a "greater spirit", with spirits referring to the Maiar in this context (for clarity, the Balrogs were noted as lesser, with even lower ones taking the form of powerful orcs).
  • Finally, as Ossë was temporarily a servant of Melkor/Morgoth, it is possible Sauron scales above him as the greatest fallen Maia.
  • In the Second Age, Sauron is noted to have become stronger than Morgoth at his weakest, with the Ring then enhancing him further.
Ungoliant
  • Completely overpowers a Morgoth who has only recently begun weakening by a noteworthy degree.

Luthien was able to affect both a weakened Morgoth and Sauron with her power. However, Luthien notably lacks any physical feats as she performs her actions through the employment of "magic"
  • Luthien manages to use a song of power to lull Morgoth to sleep, albeit with the aid of the 3 Silmarils.
  • Luthien manages to debilitate Sauron with fatigue and blindness, albeit temporarily. In comparison, Finrod Felagund was unable to counter Sauron's spells while Luthien is able to affect him while in the middle of fainting.
  • Luthien also manages to command Carcharoth to sleep with a command.
Melian has a few reasons for reaching this level, as she performs several notable feats and scales off other characters.
  • She repulses Ungoliant, who while likely weakened from her repulsing by a weakened Morgoth and his Balrogs, should not have been too much weaker as she took no real damage from the Balrogs' attacks.
  • She was the original chief of the Maiar who later became the Istari. The Istari are noted as "mighty" among the Maiar, and peers of Sauron in his origin.
  • Melian's protection kept Luthien safe from Angband, putting her above her daughter.
Carcharoth
  • In his first key, he should be comparable to Huon, as he was set to guard against the Hound of Valinor. Huan physically overpowered Sauron, albeit a Sauron who had been temporarily blinded and fatigued by Luthien, and had slain Drauglin, the first Werewolf.
  • In his second key, he physically slays Huon (while getting slain in return) and has grown notably stronger due to devouring a Silmaril. Silmarils are gems that not even the Valar can recreate. The Silmarils are capable of burn the unholy, with even Morgoth (who was only just beginning to weaken to a notable degree) being permanently burned by their touch, and later sent to sleep with their aid. The Silmaril make him even stronger, but also insane with pain.

Fingolfin
  • Said to be the physically strongest of the Noldor, putting his striking and lifting strength above all other Noldor.
  • Successfully maims Morgoth during their duel, causing him to sustain permanent injuries and have a limp till his bodily death. He also continues to fight after tanking several direct hits from Morgoth. As noted earlier, Morgoth was above First Age Sauron even at his weakest
  • Note: despite being enraged to such an extent he seemed to resemble a Vala, Fingolfin does not get any power from rage. No statements of power increases are associated with his ability to cripple Morgoth.

Fëanor
  • As the mightiest and greatest of the Incarnates (humans, elves, dwarves, etc), he should be above the likes of Luthien and Fingolfin
  • Does remarkably well against the armies of Angband with only a small retinue, with it taking all the Balrogs joining the battle for him to finally be slain.

Finrod (best Noldo deserves profile)
  • Magically duels Sauron in an extended battle (I love this). He later physically rips a Werewolf to shreds.
  • Note, while he does almost die to orcs in one battle, it is an absolute outlier considering how Elven Lords can battle Balrogs who can physically shatter mountainsides while dying and help create storms that crown mountaintops. Plus, it has been noted that some orcs during the First Age were actually lesser Maiar taking the form of orcs.

Thorondor (no profile)
  • His claws permanently marred Morgoth's face with his claws. The mightiest Great Eagle, who are Maiar servants of Manwë

Morgoth (Following his corruption of Eä)
  • As noted, even at his weakest he was stronger than Sauron during the First Age.
  • Neither Luthien or Huon dared to face him and his court while he was awake

Probably Greater Maiar Tier

Arien is when we come to the less solid scaling
  • A weakened Morgoth, who should logically be stronger than he was at the end of the First Age, feared Arien's power + was said to lack the power to overcome her. However, in the context of the statement, he was shown attacking Tilion (the Maia guarding the Moon, while Arien guards the Sun) with spirits, implying he was no longer able to attack at such range (he was becoming increasingly more restricted and tied to his body)
  • Thus, it is suggestible that she is "possibly High 3-A", but she should probably not have a solid rating.
  • Her current tier relies on her being certainly a "Greater Maia" so it should probably be changed to "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A probably High 3-A" as Ancalagon has no real relation to her anymore. She still scales above Elven Lords and Tilion. The 7-A part will come from something lower down.
Gothmog
  • Gothmog is the one to put the finishing blow on Fëanor, however, the High Elf was already very wounded from an extended battle against the hosts of Angband.
  • Notably, Fëanor was burned and bound by the flaming whips of the Balrogs, while also being wounded during the battle with the orcs and Balrogs, making the whole thing a giant potential outlier, or the result of his heat resistance failing (which is notable, as he forges the Silmarils with the light of the Two Trees, with the younger tree being said to emanate a heat so great only the likes of Arien or the Valar could be near it without harm).
  • However, Gothmog blatantly smites him "to the ground", showing he physically kills him. The fact he is the outright named individual to do damage here may make him an exception to the outliers of this battle, as well as the possibility of Fëanor only being harmed due to heat.
Ecthelion (no profile)
  • Kills Gothmog and gets killed by him in return during an extended battle.

At most Greater Maiar Tier

The Istari in Valinor (Gandalf and Saruman)

The reasons here are two fold:
  1. The Istari are described as mighty for members of the Maiar, possibly referring to the concept of Greater Maiar
  2. The Istari are peers of Sauron in his origin (in regards to might). While Sauron did get stronger after entering Melkor's service, it is unknown to what extent.
Neither two reasons are particularly solid, but do suggest that they might be comparable to First Age Sauron, who is a solid Greater Maia.

Now, that's the High 3-A stuff covered. However, the scaling revision does cover more than that, as we discussed the rest of the High Elves, the Nazgûl, Istari, and Sauron during the Later Second + Third Ages.

Ancalagon Tier

Ancalagon... it's self explanatory, but he scales to his own feat where he destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim just by falling.
  • However, it is notable that Eärendil possessed a Silmaril on his brow while fighting the dragon, and that Thorondor was part of the battle in the skies.
  • Yet, as the Silmaril is not described as being used offensively against Ancalagon, and as Thorondor is not mentioned to personally confront Ancalagon, a "likely far higher" rating seems preferable here.
  • Thus he would see little change, but the amendment of "likely higher" to "likely far higher"

Sauron (LA)
  • During the Last Alliance, Sauron was still recovering from both Númenor's destruction, and the power he had exerted to corrupt the island. He was thus severely weakened.
  • Sauron was still in possession of the One Ring however, which had such might in it, that Gandalf says that not even the flames of Ancalagon the Black could even scratch the Ring.
  • He thus scales notably above Ancalagon in this key.

Gil-Galad and Elendil (no profile)
  • Both are said to be unstoppable during the War of the Last Alliance, with the armies of Sauron having the Nazgûl and the Witch-King in their ranks at the time.
  • During a duel with Sauron, while both of them die, the two successfully down Sauron, either mortally wounding his body or outright killing him, depending on context.
  • In a statement about Galadriel, she is notably only called the greatest Noldo alive in Middle-Earth following Gil-Galad's death.

Third Age

Sauron (TA)
  • Far weaker than he ever was before during this period, but still strong enough to perform this feat as a mere message. Due to the casual nature of the feat, I suggest he should have an "At least" added to his 7-A, especially as the 7-A scaling chain will be extended in this revision.
  • Considered by Gandalf the White to be stronger than him.

Gandalf the White
  • Successfully duels with Sauron over Amon Hen in a spiritual/mental clash that results in a stalemate, albeit with Gandalf utterly exhausted by the effort.
  • Considers himself to be mightier than all other beings in Middle-Earth except Sauron during the Two Towers, with the Witch-King being his only rival during the Return of the King.
  • He is thus comparable to Sauron, but notably weaker.
The Witch-King
  • He should gain two keys.
  • The first key upscales from the Nazgûl, as he is considered more powerful than any of them (more on that later).
  • The second key is comparable to Gandalf the White, as Tolkien notes that Sauron granted him an "added demonic force" for him to match the White Wizard.

Glorfindel
  • His first key directly scales to the Balrogs, as he defeats one before they both fall to their deaths.
  • His second key upscales massively from the Balrogs, as he is said to have become far stronger and more "sanctified". He is directly compared to the Maiar of Valinor, being nigh-equal to those he befriended. This includes Olorin, who may or may not be a Greater Maia.
    • The former feat likely puts him above Gandalf the Grey, although Balrogs can vary in strength
  • However, as it is either unclear whether Olorin was befriended at all, or if Olorin was befriended following said statement in the chronology, he only likely compares to the Maia. Moreover, as the TA lacks the necessary feats to support a proper scaling to High 3-A, only has one potential link to that scaling, and as said link is itself shaky, we propose he should only have "likely far higher rating"
  • He would thus be "At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-A, likely far higher". Sauron and those who scale to him would also have "likely far higher" added to their solid 7-A rating.
Galadriel
  • Considered to be the greatest living member of the Noldor in Middle-Earth, putting her above Glorfindel.
  • None of Mordor's forces can defeat her without Sauron personally attempting to confront her (see Appendices).
Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • The Greatest of the Istari, and the most powerful of the order (note, this is only for their Istari key, he and Gandalf are peers in their origin).
    • In the book, Gandalf doesn't even bother to fight him but willingly submits to imprisonment
  • Potentially the most powerful member of the White Council, which would put him above Galadriel.
    • "It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur" can mean it was by his method, plan, etc.
    • Saruman was the head of the White Council, although it was an elected thing.
    • Superior to Gandalf, who can be argued to be above or below Galadriel and Glorfindel, depending on how you interpret events.
Gandalf the Grey
  • Manages to kill a Balrog, although he dies shortly after
  • Holds his own against the combined might of the Nine at night, although he needs to flee immediately following.
    • In the day, they refused to even face his wrath, although this may be partly due to his prodigious usage of fire, a thing they fear.
    • Notably, the combined might of Aragorn and Glorfindel were considerd to be unable to stop the Nazgûl on foot during the day, but this may refer to the Nine being able to bypass the pair due to being on horseback. The language mentions both "overtake" and "oppose" in reference to their inability, implying it could be both.
  • Is noted by Tolkien to be the only one out of Elrond, Galadriel, and himself to be able to face Sauron (in a hypothetical scenario where the three had mastered the One Ring) and have a 50/50 chance to win.
  • Aragorn states "I do not know of anything else that could have hindered him, except the Enemy himself" in regards to Mordor's forces, although the Witch-King was yet to become as strong as he was later, and this could also refer to his ability to escape the Nine (as he can only face their totality for a single night).

Balrogs
  • Equal to Gandalf the Grey, give or take a bit.

Nazgûl
  • Despite being said to be physically unimpressive against the fearless, they do notably downscale from various powerful characters.
  • The combined might of the Nine is too much for Gandalf the Grey to face at night, and the Witch-King was merely the most powerful of their number during this time, rather than a peer of someone like Gandalf the White.
  • The Nine during day are able to overcome the combined force of Aragorn and Glorfindel.
  • They are thus also within the same tier as the above, albeit notably downscaling.

Aragorn
  • Aragorn is not a normal human for the record, but a descendent of Elendil and the one of the Dúnedain
  • The Unfinished Tales specify that if Aragorn was present when the Nazgûl attacked the Rangers to enter the Shire, they may have been able to repulse the Nine, implying their comparabilty.
  • Aragorn even repulses 5 of the Nine atop Weathertop, including the Witch-King.
    • While he did use fire, unlike in the Movie, Nazgûl are not especially weak to fire in the same way (they don't instantly ignite), but rather are afraid of it. The rangers likely could have easily repulsed the Nazgûl if they were so vulnerable, given Aragorn and the Hobbits can make a fire in but a few moments, Dúnedain rangers with similar training to Aragorn should be able to do the same quite quickly.
    • Moreover, Nazgûl are willing to overcome their fear to hunt foes, such as when they overcame their fear of water to cross many rivers (they fear a lot of things).
  • Aragorn later even attempts to join Gandalf in his duel with the Balrog, although he had Andúril at this point, and Boromir was attempting to do the same, despite being unable to hurt a Troll with his sword (although this is less of a strength issue but a weapon one as Frodo could harm the Troll with Sting, despite Boromir being one of the most physically impressive members of the Fellowship).
  • Aragorn thus upscales from the Nazgûl and Witch-King (first key), with one of Tolkien's notes apparently having the Witch-King view Aragorn as a "great power".
    • He's also never harmed in the Books, so he lacks notable anti-feats. Plus Elendil already scales higher despite being a human as well (albeit a Númenórean), while humans have done many other feats, such as Turin who kills Glaurung with his sword, Hurin who kills dozens of trolls with an axe, and others.

Summary (not in order of strength)

High 3-A:
  • The Aratar
  • Lesser Valar
  • Eonwe and Ilmarë
  • Ossë
  • Sauron (First and Second Ages)
  • Ungoliant
  • Luthien
  • Melian
  • Carcharoth
  • Huon
  • Fingolfin
  • Fëanor
  • Thorondor
At least Low 7-B, possibly High 3-A:
  • Arien
  • Gothmog
  • Ecthelion

At least 7-A, at most High 3-A
  • The Istari

At least High 7-A, likely far figher
  • Ancalagon
  • Sauron (LA)
  • Gil-Galad and Elendil

At least 7-A, likely far higher
  • Sauron (TA)
  • Gandalf the White
  • The Witch-King (ROTK)

At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A, likely far higher
  • Glorfindel
  • Galadriel
  • Saruman the White/of Many Colours
  • Gandalf the Grey
  • Balrogs
  • Aragorn
  • The Nazgûl (including the Witch-King)
  • Tilion (his position in the scaling does not change at all from what it is).
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This looks good. Are we just waiting on Merchant?
 
I agree with Experiment12 that Eru shoud have large size type 10 and not 8.

Type 8 is for Characters who are just "bigger" than the Universe.

Eru on the other hand has the whole Universe inside his mind. So he is infinitely larger than it.
 
Experiment12 said:
Not with types 8 and 9, because these two types have a number of dimensions that are still stuck in 4-D, while Eru is in the realm of 5 and 6-D, so it's very likely to get type 10.
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Eru is only 5-D for now. I'm not sure about size types, as I remember that you need statements to get large size of that degree, even with HDE. I could be wrong or remembering old info.
Gasper said:
I recall arundil having the "silmaril-like power". And sauron destroyed it.
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Narsil was said to shine with the light of the Sun and Moon. But that's unquantifiable, although very possibly literal.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Eru is only 5-D for now. I'm not sure about size types, as I remember that you need statements to get large size of that degree, even with HDE. I could be wrong or remembering old info.

Narsil was said to shine with the light of the Sun and Moon. But that's unquantifiable, although very possibly literal.
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Low 1-C Characters can get large size type 10 if they have any evidence for it.
Like Eru seeing the whole Universe as a thought. That's like the whole infinite gap between him the the universe.
 
Sorry if i'm dealing but i just read the discussion about Valar not having abstract existence, i think they should.

Being a lord of something dosen't really debunk them being a personification of your concept.

Just like in Egyptian mythology for one example, Gods are described as being "The God of the sun" or "the God of the Chaos " but they are still literal personifications of they concept.
 
Gasper said:
Sorry if i'm dealing but i just read the discussion about Valar not having abstract existence, i think they should.

Being a lord of something dosen't really debunk them being a personification of your concept.

Just like in Egyptian mythology for one example, Gods are described as being "The God of the sun" or "the God of the Chaos " but they are still literal personifications of they concept.
Click to expand...
It's not that they're lords of concepts, but rather that there is a lack of evidence for them being anything BUT rulers of concepts. They don't appear to embody concepts, with the only main piece of evidence that I've found, that employment of concepts is akin to breathing for them, being rather lacking in isolation.
 
Tyranno223 said:
It's not that they're lords of concepts, but rather that there is a lack of evidence for them being anything BUT rulers of concepts. They don't appear to embody concepts, with the only main piece of evidence that I've found, that employment of concepts is akin to breathing for them, being rather lacking in isolation.
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I see.

Though isn't ungoliant described as "primeval" or something?
I could be wrong though.
 
Hi, sorry for not participating in this discussion for an while

Anyways, i agree with the scaling, i believe the only ones left were Smaug and Glaurung

The first obviously downscale from Ancalagon (The mightiest of the winged dragons), the second is a little more tricky, depending of your interpretation your could either put him as just an prototype for what the later dragons would be or as Morgoth ace, the one who was leading the evil to the victory during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Let's remember Gothmoth was also present during this conflict).
 
Dinamic8000 said:
Hi, sorry for not participating in this discussion for an while
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Hey! Nice to see you back again.
Dinamic8000 said:
Anyways, i agree with the scaling, i believe the only ones left were Smaug and Glaurung
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I also forgot Elrond, but he's above the Nazgul and comparable to Galadriel, Glorfindel, and Gandalf the Grey.

Dinamic8000 said:
The first obviously downscale from Ancalagon (The mightiest of the winged dragons), the second is a little more tricky, depending of your interpretation your could either put him as just an prototype for what the later dragons would be or as Morgoth ace, the one who was leading the evil to the victory during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Let's remember Gothmoth was also present during this conflict).
Click to expand...
Ancalagon is the mightiest, so it's a but iffy to scale Smaug, a very distant descendent to them. We currently have him "possibly" upscale to the Balrogs and Glaurung, and I personally like that.

Glaurung is a tricky one. He is definitely above the Balrogs, but Gothmog muddies things as we have him "possibly" scale to the Greater Maiar. We either have Glaurung scale above all the Balrogs, which put him far above all the other dragons, including Ancalagon, or put him just above the normal Balrogs.

I'm in favour of the second, as Glaurung and Gothmog are never directly compared by name, as it's only stated the former scales above Balrogs in a generic way.

We could have the first while also upgrading Ancalagon, but Ancalagon is notably below an LA Sauron who is very much in a weakened state from his High 3-A keys.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Hey! Nice to see you back again.

I also forgot Elrond, but he's above the Nazgul and comparable to Elrons, Glorfindel, and Gandalf the Grey.


Ancalagon is the mightiest, so it's a but iffy to scale Smaug, a very distant descendent to them. We currently have him "possibly" upscale to the Balrogs and Glaurung, and I personally like that.

Glaurung is a tricky one. He is definitely above the Balrogs, but Gothmog muddies things as we have him "possibly" scale to the Greater Maiar. We either have Glaurung scale above all the Balrogs, which put him far above all the other dragons, including Ancalagon, or put him just above the normal Balrogs.

I'm in favour of the second, as Glaurung and Gothmog are never directly compared by name, as it's only stated the former scales above Balrogs in a generic way.

We could have the first while also upgrading Ancalagon, but Ancalagon is notably below an LA Sauron who is very much in a weakened state from his High 3-A keys.
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Wouldn't Ancalagon in fact downscale from Second Age Sauron, since that's when the Ring was created?
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Wouldn't Ancalagon in fact downscale from Second Age Sauron, since that's when the Ring was created?
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No. Ancalagon is unable to even slightly harm the Ring, which is only made of much of Sauron's Second Age power. He has no reason to scale at all to Sauron.

But then again, this does support LA Sauron maybe being a "possibly High 3-A" candidate, which would allow us to bring Ancalagon up as there is no anti-feat, which in turn allows Glaurung to be brought up as well.

But a "possibly High 3-A" Elendil feels weird... but, I suppose it's not contradictory, but still weird.

It would also mean a "possibly High 3-A Andúril"...
 
Tyranno223 said:
No. Ancalagon is unable to even slightly harm the Ring, which is only made of much of Sauron's Second Age power. He has no reason to scale at all to Sauron.

But then again, this does support LA Sauron maybe being a "possibly High 3-A" candidate, which would allow us to bring Ancalagon up as there is no anti-feat, which in turn allows Glaurung to be brought up as well.

But a "possibly High 3-A" Elendil feels weird... but, I suppose it's not contradictory, but still weird.

It would also mean a "possibly High 3-A Andúril"...
Click to expand...
I suppose what I'm saying is that Third Age Sauron being weakened shouldn't act as a cap on Ancalagon at all, since the only comparison between the two in canon is that Ancalagon couldn't harm something created by peak Sauron.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I suppose what I'm saying is that Third Age Sauron being weakened shouldn't act as a cap on Ancalagon at all, since the only comparison between the two in canon is that Ancalagon couldn't harm something created by peak Sauron.
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Well the thing is, LA Sauron is wearing and using the thing that he can't harm. He's not recovered yet either.

We either keep the cap or upgrade the LA cast to possibly High 3-A.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I'm not sure I understand why that puts a cap on Ancalagon.
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Well the One Ring cannot be harmed by Ancalagon due to the power used in making ut, with said power being usable by Sauron as long as he wears it (if not more, as it enhanced him). During the LA Sauron still had access to this power, even as his remaining innate power was largely crippled.

LA Sauron still has access to the power source that prevents Ancalagon from harming the Ring.
 
Tyranno223 said:
It's flowery yes, but it's meant to be a descriptive piece. It's an explicit description of Arda being but a snapshot within a limitlessly extending universe.

Tolkien writes in a manner that comes off as flowery at times, but it is quite clear on what he's conveying.

Your example is far more meaningless in comparison. Saying the sky is limitless is incomparably more nothing to saying X is surrounded by limitless space and time.
Click to expand...
Can I get the full contexts of the quotes?
 
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