Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

[Tyranno223]

To put it plainly, Aragorn has no real issue being this high up. It'd be a problem if I suggested Boromir scaled this high, but Aragorn genuinely has no issue with any of the fodder as an individual.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Finrod Felagund nearly died to orcs. Sauron struggled to defeat him

Sauron is genuinely driven back by Numenorean armies

Feanor was injured by orcs

LotR as a verse is full of these sorts of moments that we would consider PIS or just plain dumb from a scaling position. Aragorn isn't too affected by this, as note dbelow.

Why do you only take these moments as being PIS and not, for example, Aragorn fending off the Nazgul, the singular moment with which you intend to scale him to Moon level

Your memory of the book is a bit off. The parley was not a real one (even the Uruks noted as such), Aragorn simply went outside, warned the army to F off or die, and then went back inside and charged out.

He actually does turn the tide of battle alongside the sallying defenders. Plus he literally slaughters Uruks every time he engages them in battle. He's never in danger. The real issue is that he's a guy with a sword. A strong guy with a sword, but there's only so many he can cut at a time.

While I really don't intend to argue semantics with you here, that is in every definition of the word a parley. It's just not one that particularly benefits the Uruks.

If he's never in danger he has no reason to not only dodge, but dodge with seriousness enough that it would be described as "leaping".

Yes, the Balrog scales above Aragorn. This was never in contention. Aragorn scales above Nazgul who downscale from Balrog level characters.

You were arguing differently earlier though, and at present his scaling is meant to take him above the Balrog.

This is an incredibly poor take. The weapon Merry has is literally enchanted to undo the Witch-King's protections and magics. It's only when he's stabbed with it that Eowyn can kill him.

So you're saying that specific weapons would lower the Witch King to roughly human level?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I can agree with Aragorn scaling to multiple Nazgûl and even downscaling from Gandalf, but him being on the level of Maiar isn't that consistent. The Witch-King considers him powerful because they've squared up before, so that scaling is rather solid. As for Sauron, it's most likely that Sauron fears him due to Aragorn wielding the reforged Narsil, which was the main weapon involved in one of the scarce few outright routs he's suffered, so there's probably a bit of trauma there. In addition, Sauron probably believes Aragorn has the strength needed to wield the One Ring to its fullest extent, at which point Aragorn would actually scale to/above Maiar like Gandalf and potentially Sauron. It was by bluffing and saying he had the Ring, after all, that Aragorn was able to provoke Sauron and draw his attention entirely to himself, which allowed Frodo to get to Mount Doom

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Fighting against the Nazgul is, in my opinion, also not the best indicator of strength, given how the strongest one of them goes out.

"Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground...; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing..., a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."

Not only does Eowyn, who I doubt is a moon buster, famously kill him, but even Merry manages to injure him significantly. I'm not saying that their ratings are unfair, but they are at the very least very inconsistent.

Witch-King basically died to the fine print of Glorfindel's prophecy, and also was weakened cuz Merry had stabbed him with a blade of Westernesse, which had been specifically made to hurt him

 

[Tyranno223]

Why do you only take these moments as being PIS and not, for example, Aragorn fending off the Nazgul, the singular moment with which you intend to scale him to Moon level

Statements. He has statements, notes, etc. Tolkien says the Dunedain might have defeated ALL NINE (cap for emphasis) NAZGUL if he had been there at Sarn Ford when they crossed.

While I really don't intend to argue semantics with you here, that is in every definition of the word a parley. It's just not one that particularly benefits the Uruks.

It was quite literally not a parley. Even the Uruk realised it! It was a threat!

If he's never in danger he has no reason to not only dodge, but dodge with seriousness enough that it would be described as "leaping".

he leaps down to get to where he wanted to go. Aka, to the rest of the sally

You were arguing differently earlier though, and at present his scaling is meant to take him above the Balrog.

No. I noted that there is a weaker argument that you can say he could take a Balrog. I did not agree with it. He upscales from the Nazgul, who are weak enough that it takes 6, including the Witch-King, to successfully overwhelm Gandalf the Grey. He beats back 5, including the Nazgul. Sure he had fire, a weakness of there's, but this isn't the PJ Movies. Fire doesn't instantly ignite them, and they have fought past their fears in similar scenarios, such as when they entered the rivers around Rivendell (before being swept away thanks to G and E)

This is the same circumstance that the Witch-King sees him as a great power btw.

So you're saying that specific weapons would lower the Witch King to roughly human level?

Yes. It was literally enchanted to undo the spells that constitute his flesh.

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

 

[Arceus0x]

I think I also disagree with super high tier Aragorn. He should keep the super high tier with his sword since it's, well, special, but scaling him to 5-C despite Orcs and Uruk hai being a threat to him is definitely wack

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fire = Weakness = Doesn't matter, scale

Sword made to beat them up = Weakness = Matters, do not scale. Unless, perhaps, we ought to scale Merry and Pippin to Moon level? He was able to plunge the sword into him, after all.

I intend to leave it at this: I think this case is substantially less solid than you keep promising it to be, and I think you have to interpret things well out of line in order to say "At no point during 95% of the book was Aragorn in any danger, because he was an unkillable god nearly on par with actual gods, and all of the dodging and such was just for show".

 

[Tyranno223]

Fire = Weakness = Doesn't matter, scale

For trucks sake, did you read none of the scaling revision? If you're going to argue against it, at least read it. The Nazgul have overcome similar weaknesses, as said weaknesses are more akin to fears. Rivers are a fear of there's. They do not suddenly melt in a river.

Sword made to beat them up = Weakness = Matters, do not scale. Unless, perhaps, we ought to scale Merry and Pippin to Moon level? He was able to plunge the sword into him, after all.

What are you on about here? I am saying Merry doesn't scale to that level as he had the one of the few weapons that were specifically enchanted to undo the Witch-King's defenses. There is a difference between fire, a thing they fear somewhat but are able to overcome, and a weapon that is literally their bane!

I intend to leave it at this: I think this case is substantially less solid than you keep promising it to be, and I think you have to interpret things well out of line in order to say "At no point during 95% of the book was Aragorn in any danger, because he was an unkillable god nearly on par with actual gods, and all of the dodging and such was just for show".

I can't emphasise this enough.

• Tolkien's notes put him above individual Nazgul.
• Tolkien's notes emphasise he is not a normal human.
• His feats show him slaughtering fodder with no issue and driving back individuals of strength.
• He is considered powerful by powerful characters
• Sauron of all people fears him
• He is never harmed in battle, despite characters of somewhat comparable skill and speed being at least somewhat damaged in battle.

I do not find you presented case very convincing at all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, the Balrog scales above Aragorn. This was never in contention. Aragorn scales above Nazgul who downscale from Balrog level characters.

Then clearly this much downscaling shouldn't be happening in the first place. Not to mention, a character who merely downscales from the statistics and also wields a sword that is way stronger should surely be of some help in a fight against it?

This is an incredibly poor take. The weapon Merry has is literally enchanted to undo the Witch-King's protections and magics. It's only when he's stabbed with it that Eowyn can kill him.

Witch-King basically died to the fine print of Glorfindel's prophecy, and also was weakened cuz Merry had stabbed him with a blade of Westernesse, which had been specifically made to hurt him

Fair enough.

LotR as a verse is full of these sorts of moments that we would consider PIS or just plain dumb from a scaling position. Aragorn isn't too affected by this, as note dbelow.

Or, clearly this century-old book that is written to be in the style of millennia-old myths does not abide by perceived modern standards of consistency, and should not be treated as if it does.

Some more stuff:

‘Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness."

- Elven warriors (not just Glor) being capable of matching the Nazgul, while extremely impressive, isn't unheard of.​

At that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests, and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. The three Riders that were still in the midst of the Ford were overwhelmed: they disappeared, buried suddenly under angry foam. Those that were behind drew back in dismay.

- The Bruinen flood overpowers the Riders. Granted, Elrond and Gandalf are causing it, but the wording not only implies that they had to hold back its power significantly, but that it's just the river's power, rather than their own AP: "‘The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains.’"​

​

Statements. He has statements, notes, etc. Tolkien says the Dunedain might have defeated ALL NINE (cap for emphasis) NAZGUL if he had been there at Sarn Ford when they crossed.

Which is clearly contradicted by Gandalf's own statement that he and Glorfindel together couldn't.

For trucks sake, did you read none of the scaling revision? If you're going to argue against it, at least read it. The Nazgul have overcome similar weaknesses, as said weaknesses are more akin to fears. Rivers are a fear of there's. They do not suddenly melt in a river.

So? He just drove them back, he didn't even injure a single one. Doing this by exploiting their fears is perfectly reasonable without warranting scaling (well, I guess speed scaling maybe, but I don't oppose that)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was going to reply to the bits directed at me but Armor captured my stance perfectly.

 

[Tyranno223]

Then clearly this much downscaling shouldn't be happening in the first place. Not to mention, a character who merely downscales from the statistics and also wields a sword that is way stronger should surely be of some help in a fight against it?

He doesn't have the sword yet.

Fair enough.

Or, clearly this century-old book that is written to be in the style of millennia-old myths does not abide by perceived modern standards of consistency, and should not be treated as if it does.

Agreed.

Some more stuff:

‘Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness."

- Elven warriors (not just Glor) being capable of matching the Nazgul, while extremely impressive, isn't unheard of.​

Yeah. Imladris only had a few Elves at this point, but these were largely Noldor. The High Elves.

​

Which is clearly contradicted by Gandalf's own statement that he and Glorfindel together couldn't.

Yes. Aragorn and Glorfindel can't. Not Aragorn and a group of Dunedain. Tolkien likes to give emphasise to numbers admittedly, but the crucial factor is that Aragorn would be present in the latter case.

Plus the former is a mixed bag. As I noted in the original revision, the Nazgul's chief objective was to get passed them. The lines allow for it to be alternatively taken as the Nazgul simply getting passed them, just as much as it allows for it to be them being outright defeated.

So? He just drove them back, he didn't even injure a single one. Doing this by exploiting their fears is perfectly reasonable without warranting scaling (well, I guess speed scaling maybe, but I don't oppose that)

Yes, but it's congruent with both the statement that the Witch-King considered him powerful due to the showing (in the Hunt for the Ring) and the fact that his presence alone would have allowed the defenders at Sarn Ford to fend off the Nine.

Etc

 

[Armorchompy]

He doesn't have the sword yet.

Thought you said he did? Alright. But if the Nazgul can threaten Gandalf, and Aragorn can threaten them (and is implied to be equal to several on his own, making him superior to the individuals) clearly the gap isn't so big.

Agreed.

... Which means, do not expect it to abide by modern "rules" of scaling. Characters hurting beings much stronger than them without downscaling isn't something too hard to find even in works that actually strive for consistency, let alone ones modeled after myth. Especially since I would argue that "the courage of good men being capable of triumphing even against the greatest of odds" is... probably one of LOTR's biggest themes.

Yeah. Imladris only had a few Elves at this point, but these were largely Noldor. The High Elves.

Would those really be 5-C, though.

Also, how about the river.

Yes. Aragorn and Glorfindel can't. Not Aragorn and a group of Dunedain. Tolkien likes to give emphasise to numbers admittedly, but the crucial factor is that Aragorn would be present in the latter case.

You have to admit it's still a pretty big inconsistency. There's also the fact that Aragorn might have been able to help not just because of his might but also leadership skills. Didn't they just kinda fold in fear when faced with the Nazgul?

Plus the former is a mixed bag. As I noted in the original revision, the Nazgul's chief objective was to get passed them. The lines allow for it to be alternatively taken as the Nazgul simply getting passed them, just as much as it allows for it to be them being outright defeated.

The wording is "The Riders were too swift to overtake, and too many to oppose. On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once."

Yes, but it's congruent with both the statement that the Witch-King considered him powerful due to the showing (in the Hunt for the Ring) and the fact that his presence alone would have allowed the defenders at Sarn Ford to fend off the Nine.

Could I ask you to provide quotes for these so that I may look at the context?

 

[Tyranno223]

Thought you said he did? Alright. But if the Nazgul can threaten Gandalf, and Aragorn can threaten them (and is implied to be equal to several on his own, making him superior to the individuals) clearly the gap isn't so big.

Yes

... Which means, do not expect it to abide by modern "rules" of scaling. Characters hurting beings much stronger than them without downscaling isn't something too hard to find even in works that actually strive for consistency, let alone ones modeled after myth. Especially since I would argue that "the courage of good men being capable of triumphing even against the greatest of odds" is... probably one of LOTR's biggest themes.

Yes. It doesn't work with this wiki though. Unless you want to make the rating a "with the power of good" thing. Though considering how that worked with DBS and the "power of love", with this case being even less substantiated, I don't think that's a good idea.

Would those really be 5-C, though.

Possibly. Could be anywhere from High Noldorin fellas to Second Age ones, to Third Age ones. We don't know. We can't comment on this with the dirth of information. Heck, Glorfindel might have been there.

Also, how about the river.

Lifting strength issue. They were swept away, not hurt. Plus it's literally a magical water attack.

You have to admit it's still a pretty big inconsistency. There's also the fact that Aragorn might have been able to help not just because of his might but also leadership skills. Didn't they just kinda fold in fear when faced with the Nazgul?

No, there was a battle.

"They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dúnedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire"

A good number stayed and fought, effectively even (which is noteworthy), but the Witch-King overcame them at night.

It was "beyond the power of the Dúnedain" to fend off the Nine. With Aragorn in the picture, it changes to "maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them."

Admittedly the language is not "They would have fended off the Nazgul" as I wrote earlier, but rather that it was now "Possible". The emphasise here is on power, which is understandable. Even with the Ring of Fire, Gandalf could not inspire the men of Gondor to withstand the Morgul-Lord. Aragorn would have little more hope than him to rally them to still fight. But this is getting into speculation, the essential point is that Aragorn's presence would have given them enough "power" to fend off the Witch-King

The wording is "The Riders were too swift to overtake, and too many to oppose. On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once."

Could I ask you to provide quotes for these so that I may look at the context?

Should be there, but sure.

"The Riders made straight for you, as soon as you fled. They did not need the guidance of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world. And also the Ring drew them. Your friends sprang aside, off the road, or they would have been ridden down. They knew that nothing could save you, if the white horse could not. The Riders were too swift to overtake, and too many to oppose. On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once"

Looking at it again, the emphasise on this point.

"They knew that nothing could save you, if the white horse could not."

At the very least the pair could not stop them from killing Frodo. But the rest of the line still emphasises that their combined might was too much to withstand at once.

 

[Tyranno223]

Because the idea that Aragorn was genuinely under threat by Orcs and Uruks keeps being brought up, I went through every major book battle which directly involved Aragorn against "fodder".

Fellowship of the Ring: THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DUM

• "With a quick movement Gandalf stepped before the narrow opening of the door and thrust forward his staff. There was a dazzling flash that lit the chamber and the passage outside. For an instant the wizard looked out. Arrows whined and whistled down the corridor as he sprang back."
  • Being cheeky here, but Gandalf dodged arrows... evidently he's weak to them eh.
• "There was a crash on the door, followed by crash after crash. Rams and hammers were beating against it. It cracked and staggered back, and the opening grew suddenly wide. Arrows came whistling in, but struck the northern wall, and fell harmlessly to the floor. There was a horn-blast and a rush of feet, and orcs one after another leaped into the chamber. How many there were the Company could not count. The affray was sharp, but the orcs were dismayed by the fierceness of the defence. Legolas shot two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from under another that had sprung up on Balin’s tomb. Boromir and Aragorn slew many. When thirteen had fallen the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed, except for Sam who had a scratch along the scalp. A quick duck had saved him; and he had felled his orc: a sturdy thrust with his Barrow-blade. A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it."
  • Tomb of Balin battle. No real danger to Aragorn
• "...a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir’s sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn’s blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them"
  • Well Aragorn is... somehow dodged by a orc-chieftan. No danger to him though. He even kills the orc immediately afterwards and kills some more
• "Arrows fell among them. One struck Frodo and sprang back. Another pierced Gandalf’s hat and stuck there like a black feather. Frodo looked behind. Beyond the fire he saw swarming black figures: there seemed to be hundreds of orcs. They brandished spears and scimitars which shone red as blood in the firelight. Doom, doom rolled the drum-beats, growing louder and louder, doom, doom."
  • Meh. Nothing here
• "With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed. ‘He cannot stand alone!’ cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. ‘Elendil!’ he shouted. ‘I am with you, Gandalf!’ ‘Gondor!’ cried Boromir and leaped after him."
  • The balls on this two. But this is the end of the battle, with no damage or real narrative danger to Aragorn
  • There is this immediately after "They ran on. The light grew before them; great shafts pierced the roof. They ran swifter. They passed into a hall, bright with daylight from its high windows in the east. They fled across it." But it's a general statement, and it's not like Aragorn has any reason to want to stay in Moria

Two Towers: THE DEPARTURE OF BOROMIR

• No big forest fight. Sorry
• DID YOU KNOW VIGGO DEFLECTED A KNIFE

Two Towers: HELM'S DEEP

• "Eomer and Aragorn stood together on the Deeping Wall. They heard the roar of voices and the thudding of the rams; and then in a sudden flash of light they beheld the peril of the gates. ‘Come!’ said Aragorn. ‘This is the hour when we draw swords together!’ Running like fire, they sped along the wall, and up the steps, and passed into the outer court upon the Rock. As they ran they gathered a handful of stout swordsmen. There was a small postern-door that opened in an angle of the burg-wall on the west, where the cliff stretched out to meet it. On that side a narrow path ran round towards the great gate, between the wall and the sheer brink of the Rock. Together Eomer ´ and Aragorn sprang through the door, their men close behind. The two swords flashed from the sheath as one. ´ ‘Gu´thwine¨!’ cried Eomer. ‘Gu´thwine¨ for the Mark!’ ‘Anduril!’ cried Aragorn. ‘Anduril for the Dunedain!’ Charging from the side, they hurled themselves upon the wild men. Andu´ril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went up from wall and tower: ‘Andu´ril! Andu´ril goes to war. The Blade that was Broken shines again!’ Dismayed the rammers let fall the trees and turned to fight; but the wall of their shields was broken as by a lightning-stroke, and they were swept away, hewn down, or cast over the Rock into the stony stream below. The orc-archers shot wildly and then fled"
  • Yeah, Aragorn just kicks ass.
  • Also just attacked the army fairly in the open with only a few fellows.
• "For a moment Eomer and Aragorn halted before the gates. The ´ of Orcs and Men were gathering again beyond the stream. Arrows whined, and skipped on the stones about them. ‘Come! We must get back and see what we can do to pile stone and beam across the gates within. Come now!’ They turned and ran. At that moment some dozen Orcs that had lain motionless among the slain leaped to their feet, and came silently and swiftly behind. Two flung themselves to the ground at Eomer’s ´ heels, tripped him, and in a moment they were on top of him. But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: Baruk Khazaˆd! Khazaˆd ai-meˆnu! An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled. Eomer ´ struggled to his feet, even as Aragorn ran back to his aid."
  • Eomer kicks ass, but not as well. Good thing Gimli and Aragorn are there
  • Turned and ran doesn't mean retreat in this context. They literally turned, then ran elsewhere into the battlefield. Please do not make me have to through another case of explaining grammar like I did earlier in the first page of this thread
• "The sky now was quickly clearing and the sinking moon was shining brightly. But the light brought little hope to the Riders of the Mark. The enemy before them seemed to have grown rather than diminished, and still more were pressing up from the valley through the breach. The sortie upon the Rock gained only a brief respite. The assault on the gates was redoubled. Against the Deeping Wall the hosts of Isengard roared like a sea."
  • Put this here for context. Rohan is being beaten, not Aragorn. The collective is not the individual
• "Eomer ´ and Aragorn leant wearily on their swords. Away on the left the crash and clamour of the battle on the Rock rose loud again. But the Hornburg still held fast, like an island in the sea. Its gates lay in ruin; but over the barricade of beams and stones within no enemy as yet had passed."
  • Weary, not injured. Aragorn ain't got limitless stamina
• "‘Devilry of Saruman!’ cried Aragorn. ‘They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet. Elendil, Elendil!’ he shouted, as he leaped down into the breach; but even as he did so a hundred ladders were raised against the battlements. Over the wall and under the wall the last assault came sweeping like a dark wave upon a hill of sand. The defence was swept away. Some of the Riders were driven back, further and further into the Deep, falling and fighting as they gave way, step by step, towards the caves. Others cut their way back towards the citadel."
  • He does the movie thing... but on his own. He was willing to fight off the whole army for a bit
• "A broad stairway climbed from the Deep up to the Rock and the rear-gate of the Hornburg. Near the bottom stood Aragorn. In his hand still Andu´ril gleamed, and the terror of the sword for a while held back the enemy, as one by one all who could gain the stair passed up towards the gate. Behind on the upper steps knelt Legolas. His bow was bent, but one gleaned arrow was all that he had left, and he peered out now, ready to shoot the first Orc that should dare to approach the stair. ‘All who can have now got safe within, Aragorn,’ he called. ‘Come back!’ Aragorn turned and sped up the stair; but as he ran he stumbled in his weariness. At once his enemies leapt forward. Up came the Orcs, yelling, with their long arms stretched out to seize him. foremost fell with Legolas’ last arrow in his throat, but the rest sprang over him. Then a great boulder, cast from the outer wall above, crashed down upon the stair, and hurled them back into the Deep. Aragorn gained the door, and swiftly it clanged to behind him. ‘Things go ill, my friends,’ he said, wiping the sweat from his brow with his arm."
  • Aha! An anti-feat! But, not so. Aragorn is tired and grabbed by an orc... nothing else happens, he's just grabbed. Perhaps a speed anti-feat, but he's pretty tired from fighting for a long time now.
  • Note, "all who can have now got safe within" is regarding the fleeing Rohirrim, neither Legolas or Aragorn.
• "At last Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of the enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley. The Orcs yelled and jeered. ‘Come down! Come down!’ they cried. ‘If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!’ ‘The king stays or comes at his own will,’ said Aragorn. ‘Then what are you doing here?’ they answered. ‘Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai. ‘I looked out to see the dawn,’ said Aragorn. ‘What of the dawn?’ they jeered. ‘We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?’ ‘None knows what the new day shall bring him,’ said Aragorn. ‘Get you gone, ere it turn to your evil.’ ‘Get down or we will shoot you from the wall,’ they cried. ‘This is no parley. You have nothing to say.’ ‘I have still this to say,’ answered Aragorn. ‘No enemy has yet taken the Hornburg. Depart, or not one of you will be spared. Not one will be left alive to take back tidings to the North. You do not know your peril.’"
  • Yeah, no parley as the Uruks note. Aragorn just threatens them. Pretty half decently
• "So great a power and royalty was revealed in Aragorn, as he stood there alone above the ruined gates before the host of his enemies, that many of the wild men paused, and looked back over their shoulders to the valley, and some looked up doubtfully at the sky. But the Orcs laughed with loud voices; and a hail of darts and arrows whistled over the wall, as Aragorn leaped down. There was a roar and a blast of fire. The archway of the gate above which he had stood a moment before crumbled and crashed in smoke and dust. The barricade was scattered as if by a thunderbolt. Aragorn ran to the king’s tower."
  • Now this can be taken as an anti-feat. I disagree, Aragorn leaped down to go the king's tower. Why? Well, if you saw the movies...
• "All that heard that sound trembled. Many of the Orcs cast themselves on their faces and covered their ears with their claws. Back from the Deep the echoes came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald stood. But on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes did not die. Ever the hornblasts wound on among the hills; nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and free. ‘Helm! Helm!’ the Riders shouted. ‘Helm is arisen and comes back to war. Helm for The´oden King!’ And with that shout the king came. His horse was white as snow, golden was his shield, and his spear was long. At his right hand was Aragorn, Elendil’s heir, behind him rode the lords of the House of Eorl the Young. Light sprang in the sky. Night departed. ‘Forth Eorlingas!’ With a cry and a great noise they charged. Down from the gates they roared, over the causeway they swept, and they drove through the hosts of Isengard as a wind among grass. Behind them from the Deep came the stern cries of men issuing from the caves, driving forth the enemy. Out poured all the men that were left upon the Rock. And ever the sound of blowing horns echoed in the hills. On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders, and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day."
  • Look, they're slaughtering the uruks and orcs. They aren't a threat, c'mon.

The Return of the King: THE BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS

• There's quite a few lines, but the important one is this - "Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath."
  • Too stronk, skilled, and lucky to be harmed.
• Nothing else to really note, unless you want to read more paragraphs of Aragorn killing fellas

That's... actually it. Our remaining POVs are too short. All we know is Aragorn and Eomer go to war in the South and East for some time. Black Gate doesn't note what Aragorn does in any real detail.

So, to sum it up.

• Fellowship
  • Kills goblins and orcs without issue. Is dodged briefly by an orc-captain, but then he immediately kills it.
• Two Towers
  • He slaughters orcs and Uruks. Never shown to be harmed or threatened, but he does get tired by the latter half. But that's a stamina limit, not a stat one
• Return of the King
  • Explicitly unharmed in battle.

From what I've found, all concerns about fodder threatening Aragorn seem to be overblown. He's practically never threatened, minus a brief moment when he's too exhausted at Helm's Deep.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not arguing that Aragorn is on-par with orcs or uruk-hai. That notion is equally as absurd as what you've currently presented. He is consistently portrayed as above them. But not to such an inseparable degree as you're presenting him.

I find the arguments to keep Aragorn downscaling from literally Maiar and Balrogs not substantial enough. I'm casting my vote. You didn't have enough support to push it through to begin with, unless we take Antvasima saying "That seems fine to me then" in response to @DarkDragonMedeus saying he agreed as outright support. In any case, I urge DDM to take a closer look.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm not arguing that Aragorn is on-par with orcs or uruk-hai. That notion is equally as absurd as what you've currently presented. He is consistently portrayed as above them. But not to such an inseparable degree as you're presenting him.

Then what is the issue? You haven't presented a real case beyond the initial rejection due to Aragorn either being threatened by orcs and uruks, or from him not scaling to the Nazgul.

I have answered each complaint rather reasonably in my opinion, and even went through the book to find the antifeats you suggested were there.

I find the arguments to keep Aragorn downscaling from literally Maiar and Balrogs not substantial enough.

Why? I genuinely cannot find a solid argument from either you or Armorchompy. Not to mention, both of you have repeatedly displayed that you do not know the events of the books in particularly great enough detail, let alone the wider Legendarium.

I'm sorry if this comes off as rather abrasive, but I can't see that as anything other than an argument from incredulity.

These are not the PJ movies, this is the book canon, where characters are more like mythological heroes.

I'm casting my vote. You didn't have enough support to push it through to begin with, unless we take Antvasima saying "That seems fine to me then" in response to @DarkDragonMedeus saying he agreed as outright support. In any case, I urge DDM to take a closer look.

Ant, DDM, and Qrow had a look. As far as I'm aware, I only needed two staff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

While Qrow is a good friend, they aren't evaluation staff. You need Thread Mods for that. Having known Ant for awhile, I don't take his one-line acknowledgement of DDM as actual acceptance, but you'd be forgiven in doing so, come to think of it. Either way, I've asked DDM to return, since both myself and Armor have concerns here.

As for your actual points: the issue is that Aragorn, while definitely superior to Uruk-hai, is shown far more on their level (albeit much higher) than literally the maiar and balrogs.

Myself and Armor have shown instances that support this and provided interpretations that would further support this. Further, as said, the evidence for Aragorn scaling to such extremes is very light to begin with. So no offense to you but nothing from the wider Legendarium has been sufficient evidence for what you're proposing, as far as I can tell.

I'm not speaking on the movies, for the record, and I will ask that you stop insisting that I am: I have read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit multiple times each. It has been almost a decade since the last time but I know which version of events I'm arguing about, thank you very much.

 

[Tyranno223]

While Qrow is a good friend, they aren't evaluation staff. You need Thread Mods for that. Having known Ant for awhile, I don't take his one-line acknowledgement of DDM as actual acceptance, but you'd be forgiven in doing so, come to think of it. Either way, I've asked DDM to return, since both myself and Armor have concerns here.

As for your actual points: the issue is that Aragorn, while definitely superior to Uruk-hai, is shown far more on their level (albeit much higher) than literally the maiar and balrogs.

Ainur vary in strength, as do humans. Turin slays Glaurung. Hurin is stronger than Turin and slays dozens of troll guards to Gothmog, who himself is potentially a Greater Maiar. Elendil slays Sauron, who still has the One Ring.

Besides, we're not even discussing that ridiculously high part of the Legendarium, we're discussing the Balrog tiers, aka the tiers of the Ainur who are very much slayable by the Children of Ilúvatar.

Balrogs are not undefeatable foes, they're not even the strongest of Morgoth's army, with Winged Dragons being above them (as well as the likes of Glaurung), as well as certain Werewolves. Noldor Lords have slain Balrogs, and humans have saved Noldor Lords against dangerous foes (Hurin and Turin again come to mind, Elendil again to a lesser extent).

Aragorn isn't even being directly scaled to one but downscaling by a decent margin. He's not equal to a Balrog, just somewhat comparable.

Myself and Armor have shown instances that support this and provided interpretations that would further support this.

I have refuted every one of them, and a good few of them were flat out incorrect. Again, I find no ground for your complaints to remain standing on, I have answered all of them.

Further, as said, the evidence for Aragorn scaling to such extremes is very light to begin with. So no offense to you but nothing from the wider Legendarium has been sufficient evidence for what you're proposing, as far as I can tell.

I... I can't even comment on this again. I have presented the cases. I am not repeating then again.

I'm not speaking on the movies, for the record, and I will ask that you stop insisting that I am: I have read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit multiple times each. It has been almost a decade since the last time but I know which version of events I'm arguing about, thank you very much.

Perhaps, but your memory is clearly not perfect in regards to events. Between Anduril, the Daggers of Westernesse, fire vs the Nazgul, I'm not the most convinced.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You have statements explicitly saying Aragorn is not at the level you're putting him at. If nothing else, it is too inconsistent. That's my final message unless someone finds the letter where Tolkien says "just kidding, gotcha pretty good".

 

[Tyranno223]

You have statements explicitly saying Aragorn is not at the level you're putting him at. If nothing else, it is too inconsistent. That's my final message unless someone finds the letter where Tolkien says "just kidding, gotcha pretty good".

"The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two." - "The Hunt for the Ring"

Later, there is also the line

"Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger." - this regards the Witch-King's thoughts on the situation

• Note, he fears Frodo more, but it is due to this
• "He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens."
• Aragorn he fears for being a "great power", making him scalable. The fear is of Aragorn's might
• Frodo he fears for the unknown. He fears how Frodo resisted him despite being a timid and terrified thing, and for bearing a sword enchanted to specifically kill him (as Merry's own enchanted sword would help do later). He also fears Frodo for being in league with High Elves, for calling on the name of Elbereth, and for somehow beating a Barrow-Wight (although we know it's actually Tom Bombadil who did this)

"Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'." (regarding healing, but is significant as it also speaks about the nature of Aragorn overall) - Letter 155

"Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them." - Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring"

These are the three of the statements from the wider Legendarium I am using.

Outside of that, we have the instance where Aragorn drove off Five of the Nazgul, with the later line "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." implying the pair could likely withstand some of the Nine, with the inclusion of Aragorn implying he is a decent power even compared to Glorfindel, otherwise he would not be worth mentioning (like the Hobbits).

Then I have gathered the lack of anti-feats surrounding Aragorn. He slaughters fodder, and is never truly endangered by them.

There is also the fact that he willingly accepts the idea of fighting a Balrog and Saruman of Many Colours. I'm against confidence scaling, I'm just mentioning these since they're mildly relevant.

All in all, the statements I gather put Aragorn in the same ballpark as the Nazgul, who aren't even that exceptionally powerful for LotR.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The thread was long, but we're talking about Aragorn scaling? Well, he does have the Anduril, which was originally said to be Enduril. The sword his ancestor used to cut off Sauron's hand during that war. And it was also strong enough to kill the king of the dead. So I do have no issues with the tier with that sword.

However, I will note I my knowledge on the books is very minimal as it was a very ancient past that I have actually read the books. But as for is normal scaling, he is consistently the strongest human of his era and is portrayed as a one man army. But he still often needs to slay orcs one by one over time and not like he nukes the battlefield like Gandalf can. And he can still be cut by swords of some of the stronger orcs or Uruk-Hai. So looking back, I am a bit iffy about how strong he is normally without Anduril.

 

[Tyranno223]

The thread was long, but we're talking about Aragorn scaling? Well, he does have the Anduril, which was originally said to be Enduril. The sword his ancestor used to cut off Sauron's hand during that war. And it was also strong enough to kill the king of the dead. So I do have no issues with the tier with that sword.

Yeah, Aragorn scaling. Though the king of the dead stuff is movie only, Elendil did use it to either help mortally wound or kill Sauron in a mutual killing.

However, I will note I my knowledge on the books is very minimal as it was a very ancient past that I have actually read the books. But as for is normal scaling, he is consistently the strongest human of his era and is portrayed as a one man army. But he still often needs to slay orcs one by one over time and not like he nukes the battlefield like Gandalf can. And he can still be cut by swords of some of the stronger orcs or Uruk-Hai. So looking back, I am a bit iffy about how strong he is normally without Anduril.

That's more of a range issue. He only has a sword, so his attack potency can't really do much as he can only kill a few at a swing. This holds true even with Anduril. In fact, he has Anduril in the books after the first half of the Fellowship.

"The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two." - "The Hunt for the Ring"

Later, there is also the line

"Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end) he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger." - this regards the Witch-King's thoughts on the situation

• Note, he fears Frodo more, but it is due to this
• "He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens."
• Aragorn he fears for being a "great power", making him scalable. The fear is of Aragorn's might
• Frodo he fears for the unknown. He fears how Frodo resisted him despite being a timid and terrified thing, and for bearing a sword enchanted to specifically kill him (as Merry's own enchanted sword would help do later). He also fears Frodo for being in league with High Elves, for calling on the name of Elbereth, and for somehow beating a Barrow-Wight (although we know it's actually Tom Bombadil who did this)

"Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'." (regarding healing, but is significant as it also speaks about the nature of Aragorn overall) - Letter 155

"Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them." - Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring"

• While the chances aren't amazing, the Dunedain have a chance to beat the Nine as a collective if Aragorn is present. This is even when the Witch-King is present.

These are the three of the statements from the wider Legendarium I am using.

Outside of that, we have the instance where Aragorn drove off Five of the Nazgul, with the later line "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." implying the pair could likely withstand some of the Nine, with the inclusion of Aragorn implying he is a decent power even compared to Glorfindel, otherwise he would not be worth mentioning (like the Hobbits).

Then I have gathered the lack of anti-feats surrounding Aragorn. He slaughters fodder, and is never truly endangered by them.

There is also the fact that he willingly accepts the idea of fighting a Balrog and Saruman of Many Colours. I'm against confidence scaling, I'm just mentioning these since they're mildly relevant.

All in all, the statements I gather put Aragorn in the same ballpark as the Nazgul, who aren't even that exceptionally powerful for LotR.

Here's the main statements I'm using for my case.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Though the king of the dead stuff is movie only, Elendil did use it to either help mortally wound or kill Sauron in a mutual killing.

Fair enough.

That's more of a range issue. He only has a sword, so his attack potency can't really do much as he can only kill a few at a swing. This holds true even with Anduril. In fact, he has Anduril in the books after the first half of the Fellowship.

I'm aware, but the thing is Anduril is like a magical sword made of this magical supermetal. Much like how someone could kill Marvel Heralds with an Adamantium Sword. And not saying they need AoE to be Tier 7 with normal swords either though.

But anyway, I don't have anything against Aragorn being comparable to Nazgul given the statements above.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I have to agree with Tyranno. Even though high-tier Aragorn seems ridiculous on the surface, it's surprisingly internally consistent and he's defended it rather well. I haven't seen any counter arguments in this thread that really carry any weight other.

 

[Tyranno223]

But anyway, I don't have anything against Aragorn being comparable to Nazgul given the statements above.

Thank you. I'll wait for Bambu's response.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes

... So it's an anti-feat.

Yes. It doesn't work with this wiki though. Unless you want to make the rating a "with the power of good" thing. Though considering how that worked with DBS and the "power of love", with this case being even less substantiated, I don't think that's a good idea.

What I mean is that sometimes feats that look like they should lead to downscaling don't.

Possibly. Could be anywhere from High Noldorin fellas to Second Age ones, to Third Age ones. We don't know. We can't comment on this with the dirth of information. Heck, Glorfindel might have been there.

Glorfindel is only one of them, there's four at absolute minimum given his wording.

Lifting strength issue. They were swept away, not hurt. Plus it's literally a magical water attack.

I think it's just the river going really strong, it seems like they just unleashed it rather than empowered it beyond its limits. But while it's true that it's LS, I think it does kinda shown that they aren't meant to be that strong. But, fair enough.

No, there was a battle.

"They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dúnedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire"

A good number stayed and fought, effectively even (which is noteworthy), but the Witch-King overcame them at night.

This really seems to me like his leadership would matter just as much as his strength (and as you've mentioned numbers matter a lot to Tolkien), and he seems pretty unsure about the whole thing even then. I'm not a death of the author sorta guy but I don't think this is a decisive enough statement to hold much meaning.

"The Riders made straight for you, as soon as you fled. They did not need the guidance of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world. And also the Ring drew them. Your friends sprang aside, off the road, or they would have been ridden down. They knew that nothing could save you, if the white horse could not. The Riders were too swift to overtake, and too many to oppose. On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once"

Looking at it again, the emphasise on this point.

They still make it pretty clear that they couldn't stop them.

I could go on to challenge the rest of what you typed out, you make a good case, but I think your insistence that you've shot down all arguments is quite silly given that the biggest of them, Gandalf stating that he is in no question comparable to the Balrog, remains standing. Meanwhile, all of the feats are just characters stating that he might be capable of fighting the Nazgul, or just keeping up with them once (while exploiting one of their greatest fears, and without ever inflicting any damage).

 

[Armorchompy]

Here's something I found in Tolkien's Letters, 210.

"Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here. It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness."

This seems like it'd deserve a Varies rating of some sort here. If you don't fear them then they aren't as good at threatening you. And Aragorn seemed pretty good at not being afraid.

 

[Tyranno223]

... So it's an anti-feat.

I have said that Nazgul individually downscale by a significant margin. They are consistently a threat to Glorfindel and Gandalf in groups. They still need to be roughly comparable

What I mean is that sometimes feats that look like they should lead to downscaling don't.

This is meaningless.

Glorfindel is only one of them, there's four at absolute minimum given his wording.

Yes, they could be four First Age Noldor, Four Second Age Noldor, we don't know. This line gets us nowhere as we don't know.

I think it's just the river going really strong, it seems like they just unleashed it rather than empowered it beyond its limits. But while it's true that it's LS, I think it does kinda shown that they aren't meant to be that strong. But, fair enough.

Please note again

"‘Elrond commanded it,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains.’ "


It's a magic flood.

Also, this would be an anti-feat for Gandalf and Elrond if we took it your way, but I'll drop it here

This really seems to me like his leadership would matter just as much as his strength (and as you've mentioned numbers matter a lot to Tolkien), and he seems pretty unsure about the whole thing even then. I'm not a death of the author sorta guy but I don't think this is a decisive enough statement to hold much meaning.

The power of the Dunedain is the thing Tolkien emphasised here, and the coupled line that the Witch-King saw Aragorn as a "great power" confirms this.

They still make it pretty clear that they couldn't stop them.

"maybe it still" is a clear sign of possibility. Not a great chance, but it's still possible. Something especially worth noting since Gandalf couldn't even handle 6. And yes, numbers is king, but the Witch-King broke all the remaining Dunedain simply by attacking at night, at his strongest. The presence of Aragorn somehow makes it possible for them to withstand the Nazgul, including the Witch-King, who is too much for the remaining Dunedain to even countenance at his full might.

I could go on to challenge the rest of what you typed out, you make a good case, but I think your insistence that you've shot down all arguments is quite silly given that the biggest of them, Gandalf stating that he is in no question comparable to the Balrog, remains standing.

I have repeated this several times! Aragorn does not scale to the Balrog! He upscales from the Nazgul! It takes 6 Nazgul to threaten a Balrog level character!

Meanwhile, all of the feats are just characters stating that he might be capable of fighting the Nazgul, or just keeping up with them once (while exploiting one of their greatest fears, and without ever inflicting any damage).

I'm sorry, but I genuinely see every argument you and Bambu have presented as non-issues at best. At this point, I am genuinely just repeating my points, as for instance

Here's something I found in Tolkien's Letters, 210.

"Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here. It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness."

This seems like it'd deserve a Varies rating of some sort here. If you don't fear them then they aren't as good at threatening you. And Aragorn seemed pretty good at not being afraid.

I LITERALLY COVERED THIS IN THE SCALING REVISION. (again, caps for emphasis)

The line makes no sense in the published work, which is the primary canon. They are a genuine danger to the likes of Glorfindel and Gandalf, which contradicts this letter!

Yes, I too have been using letters, but as I noted in the discussion threat, the chief canon is the published material (minus the Silmarillion, which is a few steps belows LotR and the Hobbit), with letters and notes being supplementary. The presented material needs to be congruent, otherwise we can use letters that says Manwe = Melkor, which is truly nonsense.

 

[Armorchompy]

I have said that Nazgul individually downscale by a significant margin. They are consistently a threat to Glorfindel and Gandalf in groups. They still need to be roughly comparable

And Aragorn is superior to them individually, so at worst, Balrog = Gandalf >> Nazgul < Aragorn, which still leads Aragorn to not be much weaker than the Balrog. Like, there isn't really any other way to consider it, that is how things are by your scaling. Hell by the profile he's even superior to the Witch-King.

Hell, if we compare Gandalf the Grey and Aragorn's respective performances against the Nazgul, Aragorn does better, given that Gandalf was forced to retreat, while Aragorn stood his ground, albeit against I think one less?

"‘Elrond commanded it,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains.’ "

It says it's "under his power", but that means he can command it, not that it's literally his power going into it, in fact I'd say it implies the opposite. Regardless, I'm willing to drop this just because it's a more secondary thing.

the coupled line that the Witch-King saw Aragorn as a "great power" confirms this.

On the regards of that, nothing in the statement implies the King actually considers Aragorn a threat: "The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two."

He recognizes that he's very strong for what he thinks is a mere ranger, nothing more. Nowhere is it implied that he's actually concerned about that power or think that it rivals his own.

The line makes no sense in the published work, which is the primary canon. They are a genuine danger to the likes of Glorfindel and Gandalf, which contradicts this letter!

Regardless of whether it doesn't work with other scenes, it absolutely throws the Aragorn - Nazgul scaling into question. Even if you're not going to use it for the profiles it's doubtlessly something Tolkien believed in and that clearly affected his portrayal of Aragorn's fight vs the Rangers. You yourself admitted that he isn't one for powerscaling consistency.

 

[Tyranno223]

And Aragorn is superior to them individually, so at worst, Balrog = Gandalf >> Nazgul < Aragorn, which still leads Aragorn to not be much weaker than the Balrog. Like, there isn't really any other way to consider it, that is how things are by your scaling. Hell by the profile he's even superior to the Witch-King.

Yes, the Witch-King isn't that strong in the first key. He's weaker than either Gandalf or Glorfindel individually.

It's like this Balrog = Gandalf >>Aragorn>Witch-King (first key)>> Nazgul

The Nazgul downscale HEAVILY. They are in the same ballpark, but the Witch-King seems to be the main force that makes them so deadly. The others can still be a threat, but the Witch-King's prese

Hell, if we compare Gandalf the Grey and Aragorn's respective performances against the Nazgul, Aragorn does better, given that Gandalf was forced to retreat, while Aragorn stood his ground, albeit against I think one less?

5v1 is easier than a 6v1

Other than that, don't mistake me saying Aragorn drove off the 5 Nazgul for him being >5 Nazgul. They retreated due to a mix of circumstances. However, the Witch-King fundamentally feared Aragorn's power.

On the regards of that, nothing in the statement implies the King actually considers Aragorn a threat: "The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two."

Calls Aragorn a great power, he feared Aragorn, etc.

Aka, he sees Aragorn as a danger. I quite literally broke this down above.

He recognizes that he's very strong for what he thinks is a mere ranger, nothing more. Nowhere is it implied that he's actually concerned about that power or think that it rivals his own.

Strong, despite being a MERE RANGER! (cap for emph). I refuse to do another grammar breakdown in detail like I did with "limitless expansions in space", but the point is that he views Aragorn as a "great power" DESPTIE being a "mere ranger".

It's like a character saying "Gandalf is a great power, despite being an old man".

The Witch-King doesn't have the full picture.

Regardless of whether it doesn't work with other scenes, it absolutely throws the Aragorn - Nazgul scaling into question. Even if you're not going to use it for the profiles it's doubtlessly something Tolkien believed in and that clearly affected his portrayal of Aragorn's fight vs the Rangers. You yourself admitted that he isn't one for powerscaling consistency.

This isn't an avenue to go down unless you want to override the hierarchy of canon. The published material is agreed to be the chief canon. Supplementary material is fine as long as it doesn't go against the chief canon.

Unless you want round Arda, Galadriel being High 3-A, Sauron in the Third Age being High 3-A, etc. This is not an avenue worth going down.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's like this Balrog = Gandalf >>Aragorn>Witch-King (first key)>> Nazgul

I'm gonna be honest I just don't think that the Nazgul should scale then, if they're that much weaker. You've said it yourself, Tolkien values numbers a lot, being capable of threatening someone in a 6v1 despite even your strongest member being that much weaker should just not be used for scaling.

The Nazgul downscale HEAVILY. They are in the same ballpark, but the Witch-King seems to be the main force that makes them so deadly. The others can still be a threat, but the Witch-King's prese

I mean, the Witch-King was in the group that Aragorn fought, so that doesn't matter, he'd scale to that level anyways.

5v1 is easier than a 6v1

Not to a level where a significantly inferior character manages to keep up in a 5v1, while a much stronger one loses the 6v1.

Aka, he sees Aragorn as a danger. I quite literally broke this down above.

And your breakdown is based on this quote, which I don't think holds up.

Strong, despite being a MERE RANGER! (cap for emph). I refuse to do another grammar breakdown in detail like I did with "limitless expansions in space", but the point is that he views Aragorn as a "great power" DESPTIE being a "mere ranger".

... Yes, that's what I said. He's surprised that he's not holding the ring despite him being the strongest person of the group. He's not necessarily acknowledging that he's capable of threatening him, those are different things.

This isn't an avenue to go down unless you want to override the hierarchy of canon. The published material is agreed to be the chief canon. Supplementary material is fine as long as it doesn't go against the chief canon.

I don't care about the "hierarchy of canon", if you're not just straight-up invoking Death of the Author, which would invalidate all the letters, not just the bits that are contradicted, then my reasoning holds up.

I made an argument, actually tackle it rather than try to walk circles around it by pointing at unrelated parts of the verse.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm gonna be honest I just don't think that the Nazgul should scale then, if they're that much weaker. You've said it yourself, Tolkien values numbers a lot, being capable of threatening someone in a 6v1 despite even your strongest member being that much weaker should just not be used for scaling.

I mean, the Witch-King was in the group that Aragorn fought, so that doesn't matter.

Then that's a Nazgul issue not an Aragorn one, and the individual Nazgul still endanger powerful individuals.

Regardless, the point that matters most here is the Witch-King

Not to a level where a significantly inferior character manages to keep up in a 5v1, while a much stronger one loses the 6v1.

And your breakdown is based on this quote, which I don't think holds up.

... Yes, that's what I said. He's surprised that he's not holding the ring despite him being the strongest person of the group. He's not necessarily acknowledging that he's capable of threatening him, those are different things.

Oh for pete's sake, you're focusing on one part of the line and not the other. The line says he fears Aragorn and views him as powerful! Seriously, this is just getting frustrating.

I don't care about the "hierarchy of canon", if you're not just straight-up invoking Death of the Author, which would invalidate all the letters, than my reasoning holds up.

I made an argument, actually tackle it rather than try to walk circles around it by pointing at unrelated parts of the verse.

Quite literally made my point. You argument doesn't work as it contradicts the canon, and causes us to accept cases of outliers.

We don't accept every piece of the Legendarium unless you want a contradictory mess. This is literally how we do it for most verses.

You need to present evidence that we should disregard the primary material for a secondary one.

 

[Armorchompy]

Then that's a Nazgul issue not an Aragorn one, and the individual Nazgul still endanger powerful individuals.

It's two sides of the same issues, both Aragorn's scaling to the Nazgul is questionable and the Nazgul's scaling to the level they're at is questionable. This compounds into an extremely doubtful rating.

Oh for pete's sake, you're focusing on one part of the line and not the other. The line says he fears Aragorn and views him as powerful! Seriously, this is just getting frustrating.

When does it say he fears him? Please point me to the specific words that you are gleaning this from, because I don't see it. He literally just says that Aragorn "seems to be a great power" with no further elaboration. There is zero implication of fear there.

You need to present evidence that we should disregard the primary material for a secondary one.

The "evidence" is "Tolkien clearly thinks that Aragorn's courage weakening the Nazgul is the reason he managed to fight them.", I don't care if you're saying that that mechanic doesn't work when looking at LotR as a whole, it's obvious that in this specific scene, that mechanism is in play. Overall portrayal of the verse doesn't affect that, he wrote that one scene with that specific intent and that's what matters most.

 

[Tyranno223]

It's two sides of the same issues, both Aragorn's scaling to the Nazgul is questionable and the Nazgul's scaling to the level they're at is questionable. This compounds into an extremely doubtful rating.

No, Aragorn would scale regardless of the Nazgul due to the Witch-King. This would only bring him down a bit.

When does it say he fears him? Please point me to the specific words that you are gleaning this from, because I don't see it. He literally just says that Aragorn "seems to be a great power" with no further elaboration. There is zero implication of fear there.

Read the statements above. I'm not posting them for the fifth time. I'm getting frustrated because you don't seem to be fully reading the statements I send. Look at the statement I sent to DDM and read the bulletpoints.

The "evidence" is "Tolkien clearly thinks that Aragorn's courage weakening the Nazgul is the reason he managed to fight them.", I don't care if you're saying that that mechanic doesn't work when looking at LotR as a whole, it's obvious that in this specific scene, that mechanism is in play. Overall portrayal of the verse doesn't affect that.

We don't accept contradictory evidence that is against the primary canon, it is the same for every verse. This is a dead end topic.

You're trying to push an idea that breaks every profile. If we accept this, we accept High 3-A Galadriel, Gandalf, Glorfindel, etc.

 

[Armorchompy]

No, Aragorn would scale regardless of the Nazgul due to the Witch-King. This would only bring him down a bit.

The Witch-King scaling is even more questionable than to the other Nazgul, so this does matter.

Read the statements above. I'm not posting them for the fifth time. I'm getting frustrated because you don't seem to be fully reading the statements I send. Look at the statement I sent to DDM and read the bulletpoints.

I don't think that other quote carries any weight. Aragorn was extremely effective in using fire to fend them off, which is canonically something that they fear. That doesn't inherently imply that he was capable of hurting them.

Keep in mind: "Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand."

Aragorn used fire in both hands, which means that he never actually even used weaponry against the Nazgul. Literally any pain or damage that they might have potentially suffered in the fight came solely from the fire, and they have absolutely no reason to fear him without it.

We don't accept contradictory evidence that is against the primary canon, it is the same for every verse. This is a dead end topic.

Except I'm NOT saying that we should accept this as canon, read the actual message (which i admittedly edited it a bit to elaborate while you were replying to it) and recognize that the logic is different.

 

[Hellbeast]

Could we compromise and give Aragorn a “possibly far higher” rating to Aragorn or would that be unviable

 

[Tyranno223]

The Witch-King scaling is even more questionable than to the other Nazgul, so this does matter.

We fundamentally disagree here, and I'm tired of repeating myself.

I don't think that other quote carries any weight. Aragorn was extremely effective in using fire to fend them off, which is canonically something that they fear. That doesn't inherently imply that he was capable of hurting them.

Keep in mind: "Even as he swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand."

Aragorn used fire in both hands, which means that he never actually even used weaponry against the Nazgul. Literally any pain or damage that they might have potentially suffered in the fight came solely from the fire, and they have absolutely no reason to fear him without it.

To repeat myself, read the scaling revision and earlier points. I'm tired of repeating myself.

Except I'm NOT saying that we should accept this as canon, read the actual message (which i admittedly edited it a bit to elaborate while you were replying to it) and recognize that the logic is different.

Your message makes no sense. We don't just accept intent as a sole reason for a downgrade, otherwise Namor and Adam Warlock would scale to Hulk and Thor! This is a dead end point regardless!

Could we compromise and give Aragorn a “possibly far higher” rating to Aragorn or would that be unviable

Perhaps, but their points really don't convince me in any way. I've already had DDM come and have a look, and he said my statements are fine.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'll be honest here, this has thus far been a very frustrating back and forth

You both brough up uruks and orcs being capable of hurting Aragorn

• I showed this to be false

You both accuse me of scaling Aragorn to a Balrog

• He is not on the same level, just the same tier, just like Saruman and Gandalf the Grey, despite the two being greatly apart in scaling. Same with Glorfindel's first and second keys

You want to use intent as a reason for downgrade

• No. No verse accepts this as its own worthwhile reasoning

You have both brought up fire as a weakness

• Nazgul have overcome such fears in moments where they are near their target. See the flood for example, or any river they ever cross! Heck, if it's just because of fire, then the Dunedain would have beaten them at Sarn Ford!

You both view Witch-King scaling as faulty

• Why? I'm not copypasting again, but the statements literally says the Witch-King views him as powerful and fears him!

This is all on top of bringing in incorrect information! Forgive me, but this is incredibly frustrating at this point! We've cycled through all these points repeatedly now!

 

[Armorchompy]

Your message makes no sense. We don't just accept intent as a sole reason for a downgrade, otherwise Namor and Adam Warlock would scale to Hulk and Thor! This is a dead end point regardless!

It's not just about intent. Tolkien basically straight-up says that the Nazgul were not capable of exercising their full power when fighting Aragorn. Now I can agree that he may have not been thinking about their greater role in the story when he wrote that fight, but that doesn't mean that that mechanism isn't in place in the very same fight in which it's happening!

To stick with the comics comparison, if a writer made up a weakness for Spider-Man, and a 9-B character used that weakness to defeat him, but then that weakness was clearly retconned away, we would still not scale that 9-B to his tier, because Spider-Man, regardless of overall verse portrayal, was still weakened in that fight, even if that weakness isn't canon.

I'll be honest here, this has thus far been a very frustrating back and forth

You both brough up uruks and orcs being capable of hurting Aragorn

• I showed this to be false

You both accuse me of scaling Aragorn to a Balrog

• He is not on the same level, just the same tier, just like Saruman and Gandalf the Grey, despite the two being greatly apart in scaling. Same with Glorfindel's first and second keys

You want to use intent as a reason for downgrade

• No. No verse accepts this as its own worthwhile reasoning

You have both brought up fire as a weakness

• Nazgul have overcome such fears in moments where they are near their target. See the flood for example, or any river they ever cross! Heck, if it's just because of fire, then the Dunedain would have beaten them at Sarn Ford!

You both view Witch-King scaling as faulty

• Why? I'm not copypasting again, but the statements literally says the Witch-King views him as powerful and fears him!

This is all on top of bringing in incorrect information! Forgive me, but this is incredibly frustrating at this point! We've cycled through all these points repeatedly now!

Listen, I definitely agree that this has gone circular but just responding to arguments with "oh I addressed this before, clearly you didn't read that!" just makes you look like you're not listening. Yes, you obviously made your arguments. That doesn't mean that my own are immediately invalid, powerscaling is a subjective thing and I don't find most of your points very convincing.

I'm fine with having a vote or something given that this clearly isn't going to end with one convincing the other.

One thing, though, we're not saying that you're scaling him to a Balrog, we're saying that Gandalf explicitly saying that he isn't comparable to a Balrog is an anti-feat for his current rating.

Could we compromise and give Aragorn a “possibly far higher” rating to Aragorn or would that be unviable

I'm fine with this, for the record. I recognize that there's a scaling throughline I just don't agree with it.

 

[Experiment12]

Wait a minute, what's the problem? can be explained?
I've recently been active on forums.