Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

[Tyranno223]

Continuing the scaling conversation here as requested

Great. But as I was saying. I'm pretty convinced on Carcaroth and related characters by proxy, but not so big on Ancalagon.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

That's fair enough. We should probably still have a high tier Thorondor, though, since he succeeded in permanently scarring Morgoth after the duel with Fingolfin.

 

[Tyranno223]

That's fair enough. We should probably still have a high tier Thorondor, though, since he succeeded in permanently scarring Morgoth after the duel with Fingolfin.

That's fair, although we don't currently have a page for Thorondor.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

So it looks like there's a couple groups.

"Silmaril" tier: Those who scale to a Silmaril-level energy output, which is sufficient to injure Morgoth. Includes the Carcharoth-Huan-Sauron scaling chain. This can also be support for the Greater Maiar.

"Greater Maiar" tier: Those Maiar that either have author statements of being especially powerful or other entities that obviously match them or the Valar somewhat in power. Such as Sauron, Eonwe, Arien, Osse and the top tier elves like Fingolfin, Feanor, Finrod, and maybe a handful of others like potentially the Istari and Galadriel.

 

[Tyranno223]

So it looks like there's a couple groups.

"Silmaril" tier: Those who scale to a Silmaril-level energy output, which is sufficient to injure Morgoth. Includes the Carcharoth-Huan-Sauron scaling chain. This can also be support for the Greater Maiar.

"Greater Maiar" tier: Those Maiar that either have author statements of being especially powerful or other entities that obviously match them or the Valar somewhat in power. Such as Sauron, Eonwe, Arien, Osse and the top tier elves like Fingolfin, Feanor, Finrod, and maybe a handful of others like potentially the Istari and Galadriel.

Sounds good. Now we just need to agree on who goes into the latter grouping. I'll present my views in a summary post some time this week.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Sounds good. Now we just need to agree on who goes into the latter grouping. I'll present my views in a summary post some time this week.

Sounds good. Who else would be providing feedback?

 

[Tyranno223]

Sounds good. Who else would be providing feedback?

You and Merchant both have your own views on the topic. I wouldn’t mind your own summaries or at least commentary on mine.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

My earlier comment pretty much sums up my basic views on the scaling groups, but I'm sure that once I see your post I'll have more thoughts and comments based on that. I'm happy to help.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

On second thought, I do have some more detailed input. I'm on vacation so I don't have my books with me for specific citations, but this ought to be enough for a conversation. This scaling only includes the stronger characters of the verse, since their profiles are the ones that have gone up and down and up and down on the wiki for the past six years or so.

Valar Tier: Solidly 3-A or High 3-A, given their near-complete control over the physical material of the universe.

• The Valar themselves.
• Tree-amped Ungoliant.

Silmaril tier: Those entities that either survived the full energy of a Silmaril, which burned Morgoth, or clearly scale to characters who did. It’s worth noting here that the Silmarils were regarded by Morgoth as being more desirable than the Trees themselves, and even after absorbing the power of the Trees Ungoliant still regarded the Silmarils as being a significant source of strength. Given that each Silmaril contained the light of the Two Trees, with Telperion providing the energy source for the creation of the universe’s stars, their tier would be somewhere in 3. 3-A or High 3-A seems the most likely given that an infinite Ea is leaning towards being accepted.

• Carcharoth, for not only surviving eating a Silmaril but Tolkien stating that the “dreadful power” of the Silmaril was inside him, making him the most dangerous creature to come into Beleriand before the fall of Angband. “Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband's fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him and drove him on.” This statement would also place him above Glaurung, and he physically downscales from Morgoth for surviving a Silmaril inside of him that injured his master.
• Huan, for physically overpowering a Silmaril-amped Carcharoth. Huan only died afterwards because of the venom in Carcharoth’s bites, but he did win the fight.
• Sauron, for putting up a fight against Huan despite being overpowered.
• Anyone that scales to Morgoth’s physical form or the Carcharoth-Huan-Sauron chain.

Greater Maiar tier: Those Maiar that either have author statements of being especially powerful or other entities that obviously match them or the Valar somewhat in power. There’s a lot of overlap here with the Silmaril tier, so they might end up being the same category. Strong 3-A or High 3-A, downscaling from the Valar.

• First and Second Age Sauron, for having statements of being “the greatest” of Morgoth’s servants and of a far higher order than the Istari, for tanking Manwe’s lightning while in Numenor, and for fighting Huan.
• Eonwe, “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.”
• Thorondor, for being the mightiest of Manwe’s eagles and injuring Morgoth’s face.
• Fingolfin, for dueling and wounding Morgoth and being stated as the strongest elf.
• Feanor, for having statements similar to Fingolfin that place him as the strongest elf, for creating the Silmarils, and for holding his own against an army of Balrogs, which collectively defeated a tree-amped Ungoliant that overpowered Morgoth.
• Finrod, for holding his own against Sauron for a time in a magical duel
• Melian, for creating a barrier around Doriath so powerful that even Morgoth and Sauron couldn’t breach it. Beren could pass through it because “his doom” was even greater and probably came from Iluvatar, and Carcharoth needed the full power of the Silmaril to pierce the barrier.
• Gothmog, for killing Feanor and being the leader (presumably the strongest) of the Balrogs.
• Ungoliant. Regarded as a powerful ally by Morgoth in her base form, and far stronger than Morgoth after absorbing the light of the trees. Her second key is probably the most powerful incarnate character in the verse.

Possibly Greater Maiar tier: Characters that are still extraordinarily powerful, but don’t have as explicit scaling. At Most 3-A or At Most High 3-A in addition to their other keys.

• The Istari. Still treated as powerful servants of the Valar, but not quite on Sauron’s level. Scale to Balrogs in their incarnate forms, with their true forms being unquantifiably stronger.
• Gil-Galad and Elendil, for fighting and killing Second Age Sauron together. Galadriel was only stated to be the strongest elf left after Gil-galad’s death, indicating that Gil-galad > Galadriel.
• Galadriel, who was closely related to Finrod and Feanor and was stated by Tolkien to be the mightiest elf left in Middle-earth after the end of the Second Age. She was physically comparable to the best athletes of the Eldar. Proved crucial in defeating Necromancer Sauron. Studied under Melian for centuries. Scales above Glorfindel.
• Arien, for scaring Morgoth and being stated to be beyond his power to affect (might be range?)
• The Balrogs. Among the strongest of Morgoth’s servants and treated as threats individually even to the most powerful elves. Together they overpowered tree-amped Ungoliant, who was stronger than Morgoth. It’s been suggested that Ungoliant had a specific weakness to fire that allowed this, but Morgoth was also capable of wielding fire offensively and didn’t even try in this situation, so that suggests otherwise.
• Glorfindel. On par with a Balrog in his first incarnation, and his reincarnation was even more powerful. Even all nine Nazgul were afraid of him. Stated as being near-equal to the Maiar.
• Ecthelion, for wounding Gothmog and killing him with the aid of Ulmo-enchanted water.
• The strongest Dragons. Glaurung was regarded as being the chief threat in Morgoth’s army as an adult, scaling him above Balrogs, and Ancalagon was far more powerful while still being below Sauron. Ancalagon was the leader of the dragon-host and during the full-day-long battle against Earendil may also have fought Thorondor, who scales physically to Morgoth.

Uncertain Scaling: Characters with vague or inconsistent scaling.

• Tom Bombadil. Theories abound regarding this happy little fellow. I personally do not subscribe to the idea that he’s secretly Iluvatar, since he doesn’t have the attention span to be God and Elrond also stated that eventually Bombadil would fall to Sauron after a long fight. So it seems that he probably downscales from Third Age Sauron.
• The Witch-king and Nazgul. The Ringwraiths’ scaling is everywhere, at some times seeming just superhuman while at other being touted as comparable to powerful Maiar. I’m really not sure what to do with them. Maybe their specific weaknesses to fire and water would help explain inconsistencies. Gandalf the Grey is approximately equal to them at night and superior to them in the day, and Gandalf the White later was fairly confident he could at least hold off an amped Witch-king.

 

[Tyranno223]

Greater Maiar: Solid scaling:

• Eonwe
• Ilmarë

They are both outright said to be "chief" among the Maiar (with seniority correlating with might for the Ainur). The former's "might in arms" is "surpassed by none in Arda.", meaning even the Valar. Eönwë easily overthrows Morgoth at the end of the First Age, and the First Dark Lord should still be superior to the likes of Sauron during that age.

"Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë..."

Greater Maiar: Candidates:
Note: All extracts are from the Silmarillion unless otherwise specified. Just use Ctrl+F to search if you want.

• Sauron
  • The greatest of the Morgoth/Melkor's Maiar. - "Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
    • The Silmarillion outright says Morgoth/Melkor was only able to fight the Valar due to the presence of powerful Maiar. While this could refer to the Fallen Maiar fighting Faithful Maiar, it is a notable supporting statement.
    • "Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness"
  • Fights Huan who later fights Carcharoth who is empowered by a Silmaril that he ate. Sauron was notably blinded and (temporarily) fatigued by Luthien's power during this struggle - "So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him. Then Huan sprang. There befell the battle of Huan and WolfSauron, and the howls and baying echoed in the hills, and the watchers on the walls of Ered Wethrin across the valley heard it afar and were dismayed. "
    • Silmarils house the "blended light of the Trees of Valinor" that not even the Valar could remake following their destruction.
    • The rejection of the Silmarils permanently scar Morgoth/Melkor, and this was still early into his waning - "In his right hand Morgoth held close the Silmarils, and though they were locked in a crystal casket, they had begun to burn him, and his hand was clenched in pain; but he would not open it." + "Morgoth forged for himself a great crown of iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain."
    • The combined might of the Silmarils seemningly aids Luthien in drawing Morgoth/Melkor into slumber - "All his court were cast down in slumber, and all the fires faded and were quenched; but the Silmarils in the crown on Morgoth’s head blazed forth suddenly with a radiance of white flame; and the burden of that crown and of the jewels bowed down his head, as though the world were set upon it, laden with a weight of care, of fear, and of desire, that even the will of Morgoth could not support"
  • Commentary in a 1955 essay from Morgoth's Ring states Sauron was a "greater spirit". However, it is unknown to what extent this essay holds true for Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter - "Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs..."
  • Considered the greatest servant of Morgoth/Melkor, which may put him above Ossë, as the said Maiar temporarily served the First Dark Lord
  • A comprehensive essay from Tolkien states that Second Age Sauron was superior to Morgoth at the end of the First Age. No mention is made of the Ring as a cause, implying he simply grew stronger. Likely due to hijacking/being granted some of Morgoth's might - "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others."
    • It is known Morgoth gifted some of his power into his servants - "for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed"
    • A comprehensive essay in Morgoth's Ring from Tolkien notes that Sauron "inherited" Morgoth's corruption of Arda. As Morgoth corrupted by imparting his power into things, this may imply he usurped some of his defeated master's power - "Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate."
• Ossë
  • One of the only Maiar to be granted as lofty a title as "vassal" to a Valar, as he "is a vassal of Ulmo, and he is master of the seas that wash the shores of Middle-earth." - Such a relatively unique and high status may evidence his status as a "Greater Maiar"
  • Melkor enlists Ossë against Ulmo in his own domain. It is unlikely Melkor would not have done so were the Maia not at least somewhat comparable to the might of a Vala. This is doubly notable as Ulmo is the second greatest lord of the Aratar, the greater Valar who are incomparable to even the lesser Valar - "Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it. It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him. So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands."
• Melian
  • Stated in the Nature of Middle-Earth to have been the original leader of the Istari. The Istari are noted in the Unfinished Tales to be mighty for even members of the Maiar.
    • The Nature of Middle-Earth
      • "Oromë instruct and guard the Elves at Cuiviénen, but also the Maia Melian, and those of her fellow Maiar that would later, in incarnate form, come (again?) to Middle-earth in the Third Age as the Istari, the Five Wizards that were sent by the Valar to encourage resistance to Sauron."
      • "The Valar send five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar) – with Melian (the only woman, but the chief) these make six. The others were Tarindor (later Saruman), Olórin (Gandalf), Hrávandil (Radagast), Palacendo, and Haimenar."
    • Unfinished Tales
      • "To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more?" - The Istari are still notably lesser to Eönwë
  • Melian's power repulses Ungoliant, although the spider should be weakened considering her "Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King Thingol, and a terror of darkness was about her; but by the power of Melian she was stayed, and entered not into Neldoreth"
• Thorondor (lacks a profile at the moment)
  • The mightiest of the Great Eagles, who are noted in various version of Tolkien's writings to be members of the Maiar "Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been"
    • See the footnotes of The Nature of Middle-Earth: VIII MANWË’S BAN for example - "The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles that we hear of in the legends of the war of the Ñoldor against Melkor, and who remained in the West of Middle-earth until the fall of Sauron and the Dominion of Men"
  • Physically wounds Morgoth partway into the First Age. Morgoth, even at the end of the First Age, when he was at his weakest, was superior to the likes of Sauron during that age - "but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face"
• Arien
  • A weakened Morgoth, who should logically be stronger than he was at the end of the First Age, feared Arien's power + was said to lack the power to overcome her. However, in the context of the statement, he was shown attacking Tilion (the Maia guarding the Moon, while Arien guards the Sun) with spirits, implying he was no longer able to attack at such range (he was becoming increasingly more restricted and tied to his body)
    • "Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds" - A statement about power, however
    • "But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious." - the context is that Morgoth was trying to assault the "new lights" with spirits (likely Fallen Maiar of some kind).
• Gothmog
  • His scaling depends on Fëanor, as his only notable feat is in being the one to finally put him down. Even then, it would be a substantial downscale, as it's noted Fëanor was being attacked by the entire army of Angband and the Balrogs that came to assist. While those foes are naturally irrelevant to Fëanor by the standards of the wiki, the they were narratively a threat - "Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

Candidates I am against (including non-Maiar who can potentially scale)

• Istari (Gandalf and Saruman)
  • The wizards in their unrestricted forms are considered mighty for members of the Maiar, but they aren't necessarily distinguished as "Greater Maiar".
  • The likes of Olorin/Gandalf (and thus Curumo/Saruman) are noted to have been peers with Sauron in his origins however, but it is unknown how strong Sauron was at this time
    • Saruman the White is doubtless above Gandalf the Grey but their "unrestrained" state is another matter. - "'We must assume that they were all Maiar ...'; but after the words with which that citation ends ('... chosen by the Valar with this in mind') there stands only 'Saruman the most powerful'" - The Peoples of Middle-Earth (this took forever to find). A line in the Fellowship also says "For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order."
    • The descriptions in the Unfinished Tales emphasize Olorin's status as a peer of Sauron in his origins, and in describing their comparative might and wisdom, Saruman/Curumo is only said to be higher in Valinorean status, with both of them being peers in might, considering Radagast is considered below both of them - "Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf is evidently the next in the order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom."
• Gil-Galadand Elendil (lacks a profile at the moment)
  • Sauron was still weakened from the downfall of Númenor during the Wars of the Last Alliance - "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established." - Letter 211
  • They scale to LA Sauron only, who should still be above the likes of Ancalagon, given that he still possessed the One Ring.
    • "...but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself." - Fellowship of the Ring: THE SHADOW OF THE PAST
• Glorfindel and Galadriel
  • The latter scales above the former, so I coupled them together what a cursed ship this would be
  • The former's best feat is in slaying a Balrog in his first key, and being comparable to the Maiar in his second key. The former allows his second key to be substantially higher, but it is unquantifiable, as Tolkien is not very specific. I'd possibly scale him to Gandalf the White or Olorin, but that's only because they were friends, making Olorin one of the Maiar he was comparable to.
    • "For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the com- panionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru.(13) That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth" - The Peoples of Middle-Earth (this took forever to find).
  • This results in an interesting scaling debate in its own right.
    • Issues arise as Glorfindel should be below Galadriel, who herself is said to be roughly comparable but likely below Gandalf the Grey - For example, Tolkien says only Gandalf could have taken the Ring and had a 50/50 chance against Sauron when speaking of Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf the Grey. Furthermore, Gandalf the White is certainly above both members of the Eldar, as describes himself as second only to Sauron in might, with the Witch-King only becoming a contender at the height of his power.
    • Note, there are descriptions of Galadriel as the greatest of the Noldor besides Fëanor, but she lacks the displays of power to put her there. She is unfortunately historically inactive for most of the First and Second Ages. Furthermore, it is contradictory to her inability to resist Sauron outside her own domain. Only the power of Nenya allows her to fend off Sauron, and this does not extend beyond her borders. - "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
    • Furthermore, the description of her being the greatest surviving member of the Eldar is specific in stating that she bcame so following Gil-Galad's death. It implies she was likely beneath him, which makes sense if you consider how she compares to Gandalf. - "Elendil and Gil-Galad were partners; but this was "the Last Alliance" of Elves and Men. In Sauron's final overthrow, Elves were not effectively concerned at the point of action. Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers. Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action."
    • My conclusion here is this. Glorfindel, and thus Galadriel, gain an "at most" scale to 7-A alongside a "likely far higher" rating. This would however bring Gandalf the Grey (and those who scale to him) up to the "at most" scale, which includes Saruman and the Balrogs.
• The Nazgûl and the Witch-King
  • The Witch-King is pretty simple, as he should have two keys. His first key is above the other Nazgûl, but should not scale actually near the might of Gandalf the White prior to the Return of the King, as he actually only gained the might required to face the White Wizard during the Third Book (explaining why Gandalf did not mention him when describing his own might compared to other characters) - "The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force." - Letter 210
  • The Nazgûl in general are a tricky topic.
  • Letter 210 states that the Nazgûl themselves aren't that dangerous individually. They aren't that physically impressive compared to many of their foes, but are more dangerous due to the fear they cause - "Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness."
  • However, they do appear to be genuinely more powerful at night (and in dark) in comparison. For example, in the Fellowship, the collective Nine are unable/unwilling to face Gandalf the Grey in day, but are willing to do so at night - "‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Suˆl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old."
    • This number does include the Witch-King, but he is not as powerful as he will be later, and the story does not emphasise his presence as a key reason as to why the Nazgûl could face Gandalf.
  • Moreover, it is stated that the combined power of the Nine is too much for both Aragorn and Glorfindel to face, even together. This is especially notable as it was day (notable also, as that puts Glorfindel below Gandalf who could face the combined Nine at night) - "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once."
  • They should therefore be collectively superior to Glorfindel during day, and a bit above Gandalf the Grey at night, as the line follows - "At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more."
  • Individually they thus downscale heavily, being roughly in the same tier, but far weaker. Aragorn also sees a nice boost, as he is outright considered capable of repulsing the Nazgûl to an extent
    • According to the Unfinished Tales, the Rangers might have been able to repulse the Nazgûl from entering the Shire if Aragorn was there with them "They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them." - Notable as it is a "maybe"
    • Apparently, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (a scholarly work) got their hands on a some unpublished notes, with one part of the "Hunt for the Ring" from the Unfinished Tales stating - "The camp is attacked by night by five Riders; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. The Witch-King now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two." - which has obvious implications. I lack a copy of the text digitally or physically, but it is an extract that Tolkien himself wrote, according to Tolkien Gateway
    • Aragorn is considered alongside Glorfindel when discussing their odds at repulsing the Nine, although Aragorn was using fire, a weakness of the Nazgûl
    • He drives off 5 of the Nazgûl, although he again uses fire here. However, if simply having their weakness was enough, it is likely the Rangers could have just used that to repulse them. Indeed, the Unfinished Tales note that the Nazgûl also fear water, but are able to somehow overcome that fear to cross rivers. Thus, it must have been due to Aragorn's personal might to an extent - "My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive in Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider (who was in fact Khamûl of Dol Guldur, see note 1) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed (The Fellowship of the Ring I 5) it is said that "he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement and that the Nazgûl would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only "a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge" (p. 277). My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain" - note, elvish waters are not the only cause of fear, as Christopher discusses how his father emphasised water overall was a fear for them
    • It also helps that Aragorn has no major anti-feats. He is unharmed throughout the entire book (although he notably dodges arrows, but even Eldar Lords like Finrod can apparently be slain by orcs, so Tolkien doesn't really write in a way that helps battle boarding) and is even willing to fight a damn Balorg!
      • "With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed. 'He cannot stand alone!’ cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. ‘Elendil!’ he shouted. ‘I am with you, Gandalf!’ ‘Gondor!’ cried Boromir and leaped after him." - Fellowship: THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD- DUM - The balls on those two.
• The Balrogs
  • They do drive off Ungoliant, but it should be noted that Tolkien's work does not exactly go well with battleboarding. Orcs are a threat to Noldor Lords afterall, and they can fend off Balrogs.
  • Moreover, the Balrogs don't seem to harm Ungoliant personally. They destroy her webs and drive her off. "Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb"
    • "Ungoliant had fled from the whips of the Balrogs" - again, no description of injury within the published Silmarillion
  • Overall, they appear to have driven her off, and must have used more force than Morgoth's scream to do so, but they don't seem to actually damage her (also, scaling them to her is a massive scaling issue).

Eldar scaling to the Greater Maiar:

• Fëanor
  • Rather lacking in personal feats. All his potential scaling comes off of whether he scales above Fingolfin's duel or not.
  • Fëanor actually isn't the strongest of the Noldor interestingly enough - "Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Eärwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualondë, Olwë’s daughter."
  • An immediate demerit, however, this is likely in regards to physical strength alone, as the Silmarillion later states him to be the "mightiest" Noldo and the greatest of all the Incarnates - "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
• Fingolfin
  • Blatantly described as the strongest of the Noldor - "Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant."
  • Permanently maims Morgoth - "Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish... Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed..."
  • However, the question is whether or not we can consider this to his normal state. Fingolfin was afterall, in a rather interesting state during this duel - "Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar." - However, it appears that this is not a DB style power up, as he was only in a state of rage. Overall, this does just seem to be his normal levels of strength, but with himself being enraged.
  • If we accept this as his normal state, Fëanor likely scales, as he would be considered mightier, albeit physically weaker.
• Finrod (How does best Noldo lack a profile damn it!)
  • He magically duels Sauron... that's basically all I need to say - "Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian" - POV, you are an orc
  • Notably, Finrod likely received the same treatment Glorfindel gained, but we cannot give him a key as it is literally one line in the Silmarillion - "They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin’s son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar."
• Ecthelion (again, no profile)
  • Ecthelion slays Gothmog (and vice-versa) "...much is told in The Fall of Gondolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other..."
  • "But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drive at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldor, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, 42 and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters." - The Fall of Gondolin text expands on it a bit more.

Others

• Ungoliant
  • Almost merks Morgoth, although he had begun waning in might - "But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him; and she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him."
  • Interestingly, she appears to have been a spirit of some kind, at least in origin - "He became more and more incapable (like Ungoliantë!) of extricating himself and finding scape in the vastness of Eä, and became more and more physically involved in it." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XV THE NÚMENÓREAN CATASTROPHE & END OF “PHYSICAL” AMAN
  • Notably flees from the wrath of Valinor.
• Tom Bombadil.
  • No profile, and he would fall if Sauron regained the Ring, albeit he would outlast all others, including Gandalf the White.
• Ancalagon
  • I gave my thoughts in the Revision thread.

 

[Tyranno223]

Nearly, forgot him, but Carcharoth would scale to the Greater Maiar via dueling and slaying Huon. Although this would only be in his second key.

 

[Tyranno223]

On second thought, I do have some more detailed input. I'm on vacation so I don't have my books with me for specific citations, but this ought to be enough for a conversation. This scaling only includes the stronger characters of the verse, since their profiles are the ones that have gone up and down and up and down on the wiki for the past six years or so.

Ah, most of my thoughts on your post are covered in my own summary. The Silmaril tier you came up with definitely helped out with justifying Sauron, and those who scale to him, to go in that tier.

 

[TheMerchant66]

We've mostly talked about a lot of these points, I agree with most but have certain different POVs ofc.

When it comes to Galadriel being lesser than Gandalf the Gray cause of the ring statement, I always assumed that was because Gandalf most likely would end up "shedding" his mortal form, I guess that's just headcanon but it makes sense. Another way of putting it is Gandalf most likely would be able to use his full potential Maia power with the One Ring removing said inhibitors.

Main reason why I think Galadriel>Glorfindel>Gandalf the Gray is cause of Balrog scaling.

Gandalf died against his Balrog whilst Glorfindel actually would have walked away fron the fight if the Balrog didn't grab his hair. Ignoring that, Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray seens to be the likeliest form of scaling.

Glorfindel then gets a boost that puts him bigh equal to the Maia in Valinor and while that sounds like a contradiction it can be justified by assuming it is referring to Olórin, not Gandalf the Gray.

Galadriel still being called the mightiest Eldar in ME despite a resurrected Glorfindel running around is why I put her above Gandalf the Gray + their respective Balrog fights.

Galadriel>Post resurrected Glorfindel>Pre Resurrected Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray.

The only wrench to this scaling is Tolkien upgrading Balrogs power as time goes on, but I think Glorfindel fighting the Balrog most likely would have been kept intact since it seems something that Tolkien expanded upon with the ressurection bit rather than change it completely.

 

[Tyranno223]

We've mostly talked about a lot of these points, I agree with most but have certain different POVs ofc.

When it comes to Galadriel being lesser than Gandalf the Gray cause of the ring statement, I always assumed that was because Gandalf most likely would end up "shedding" his mortal form, I guess that's just headcanon but it makes sense. Another way of putting it is Gandalf most likely would be able to use his full potential Maia power with the One Ring removing said inhibitors.

Main reason why I think Galadriel>Glorfindel>Gandalf the Gray is cause of Balrog scaling.

Gandalf died against his Balrog whilst Glorfindel actually would have walked away fron the fight if the Balrog didn't grab his hair. Ignoring that, Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray seens to be the likeliest form of scaling.

Glorfindel then gets a boost that puts him bigh equal to the Maia in Valinor and while that sounds like a contradiction it can be justified by assuming it is referring to Olórin, not Gandalf the Gray.

Galadriel still being called the mightiest Eldar in ME despite a resurrected Glorfindel running around is why I put her above Gandalf the Gray + their respective Balrog fights.

Galadriel>Post resurrected Glorfindel>Pre Resurrected Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray.

The only wrench to this scaling is Tolkien upgrading Balrogs power as time goes on, but I think Glorfindel fighting the Balrog most likely would have been kept intact since it seems something that Tolkien expanded upon with the ressurection bit rather than change it completely.

I suppose that's a fair point. I'll need to look into it more before I give my final opinion, but that does mean we can have then scale to 7-A (be it possibly or solidly) without the Balrogs or Gandalf the Grey.

They would still be below Gandalf the White overall however, given statements of him being only below Sauron.

That being said, where would you put Saruman the White? He was likely the strongest on the White Council.

Edit: I'll have to maintain my current stance for now due to the Nazgul.

Gandalf is able to fight off all 9 at night, while not even the combined might of Aragorn and Glorfindel can match the Nazgul at day.

It is also suggestible that Durin's Bane might have been a stronger Balrog than the one Glorfindel fought, as the tier we have is really just the baseline for what they achieved. Individual Balrogs may or may not be stronger, we just don't have the info.

 

[Gasper]

Can i ask what are the abilities you are planning to give maiar, valar and eru?

 

[Tyranno223]

Can i ask what are the abilities you are planning to give maiar, valar and eru?

Haven't had too long to look at it, bu there is some substantial stuff.

Concept Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Fear Manipulation (potent enough to chase out someone's soul with fear), Matter Manipulation, NPI, Immortality etc.

 

[Gasper]

Do valar have abstract existence?

 

[Tyranno223]

Do valar have abstract existence?

It's possible, but the evidence for no outweighs it. The chief evidence for it is the fact that the usage of concepts is like breathing for them, but that could be another way of showing their control over concepts.

They have Higher Dimension Existence though (5-D).

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

This is looking pretty good so far. I would say that most of the time "Greater Maiar" is a fan term used to distinguish those of the Maiar that have statements of being especially great or strong for their type, which the wizards' unrestricted forms certainly are, so I would still be for scaling their unrestricted forms. Other than that, I agree. It would be nice to see Aragorn get that bump, too.

 

[Tyranno223]

This is looking pretty good so far. I would say that most of the time "Greater Maiar" is a fan term used to distinguish those of the Maiar that have statements of being especially great or strong for their type, which the wizards' unrestricted forms certainly are, so I would still be for scaling their unrestricted forms.

I'm wary of scaling them too high though, as they are "mighty", but they only scale to Sauron in his origin, before Melkor got him. We know Melkor gave his servants some of his power, and we even see Sauron do the same for the Witch-King.

Greater Maiar actually is a Tolkien term, although it's written as "Greater Mayar" in his notes.

Other than that, I agree. It would be nice to see Aragorn get that bump, too.

Ikr. Shame none of the Fellowship scale to him from memory.

Btw, have you any thoughts on the Gandalf the Grey, Galadriel, and Glorfindel issue? It's the only real point of contention I believe, and I remember you had Galadriel higher than the Grey.

 

[Gasper]

I remember from sillmarilion where Morgoth is so huge his head was above clounds. Cound be wrong though.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

My reasoning was the same as Merchant's, due to the Balrog scaling chain. Galadriel definitely > Glorfindel by statements, and Glorfindel > Gandalf the Grey by feats (unless we assume that Durin's Bane was for some reason stronger than Durin's Bane).

As far as the Wizards go, scaling to origin-form Sauron is still pretty solid. We don't know that Melkor made Sauron massively more powerful immediately, and he was already elite among Aule's supporters before his corruption.

Edit: I feel that an "At most" or "possibly" rating for the Istari's true forms scaling to Sauron would also make sense, since there is some subjectivity here.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I remember from sillmarilion where Morgoth is so huge his head was above clounds. Cound be wrong though.

He does use a gigantic form several times, mostly when Arda was still a mess of lava and ocean.

 

[Tyranno223]

My reasoning was the same as Merchant's, due to the Balrog scaling chain. Galadriel definitely > Glorfindel by statements, and Glorfindel > Gandalf the Grey by feats (unless we assume that Durin's Bane was for some reason stronger than Durin's Bane).

The issue is the Nazgul. We have a direct showing of Gandalf matching all 9 at night, while not even Aragorn + Glorfindel could match them at day (until they got to the river).

Durin's Bane could be superior to a normal Balrog. The Balrog page is a generalisation, as we don't know how they individually varied. Gothmog for instance seems to be a "Greater Maia" (although a pathetically weak one for the group).

As far as the Wizards go, scaling to origin-form Sauron is still pretty solid. We don't know that Melkor made Sauron massively more powerful immediately, and he was already elite among Aule's supporters before his corruption.

That's fair. I'll concede there.

Edit: I feel that an "At most" or "possibly" rating for the Istari's true forms scaling to Sauron would also make sense, since there is some subjectivity here.

I'll concede with "At Most", as Sauron might have been weaker prior to his joining Melkor.

 

[Tyranno223]

Aside from the Grey, Glorfindel, and Galadriel issue, we do need to decide how to treat the non Eönwë and Ilmarë profiles. I'm in favour of a "possibly" rating for most of them, but which ones do you guys think should get a solid rating? (if any).

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

The issue is the Nazgul. We have a direct showing of Gandalf matching all 9 at night, while not even Aragorn + Glorfindel could match them at day (until they got to the river).

Durin's Bane could be superior to a normal Balrog. The Balrog page is a generalisation, as we don't know how they individually varied. Gothmog for instance seems to be a "Greater Maia" (although a pathetically weak one for the group).


That's fair. I'll concede there.


I'll concede with "At Most", as Sauron might have been weaker prior to his joining Melkor.

I understood the passage referring to Aragorn and Glorfindel not being able to withstand the Nine on horseback as simply saying that while on foot they wouldn't be able to protect Frodo from nine mounted and powerful opponents, not necessarily that they themselves wouldn't be able to win. That would eliminate the scaling problem there.

While Durin's Bane could indeed be superior to a normal Balrog, it's just as likely that it's inferior. We don't have any in-text evidence stating its relative power level within the Balrog hierarchy, so placing it as any different from the one that fought Glorfindel is headcanon. If anything, it's more probable that it's weaker since it fled the War of Wrath and hid for millennia.

An "At Most" key works for me.

 

[Gasper]

Is gothmog from return of the king the same character from sillmarilion?

 

[Tyranno223]

Is gothmog from return of the king the same character from sillmarilion?

No, he's seperate. It's unknown what he was. The movies had him as an orc, the LOTRO game had him as a wraith.

 

[Tyranno223]

I understood the passage referring to Aragorn and Glorfindel not being able to withstand the Nine on horseback as simply saying that while on foot they wouldn't be able to protect Frodo from nine mounted and powerful opponents, not necessarily that they themselves wouldn't be able to win. That would eliminate the scaling problem there.

That's a fair reading. I think I'll concede for this point then. So Saruman, Glorfindel, and Galadriel all downscale to Olorin then, although below Gandalf the White.

While Durin's Bane could indeed be superior to a normal Balrog, it's just as likely that it's inferior. We don't have any in-text evidence stating its relative power level within the Balrog hierarchy, so placing it as any different from the one that fought Glorfindel is headcanon. If anything, it's more probable that it's weaker since it fled the War of Wrath and hid for millennia.

That's also fair, although survival could imply it to be stronger. We lack context for its flight, as it may have fought its way out and fled.

An "At Most" key works for me.

Wunderbar.

 

[Gasper]

Are there any arguments for 6-D lotr?

 

[Tyranno223]

Are there any arguments for 6-D lotr?

I'm unaware of any good arguments for it. You could probably get something from Eru's relation to Sub-Creators, but I've found nothing suggesting a state qualitative superiority.

Being omnipotent compared to someone doesn't make you an entire dimensional tier higher.

 

[Gasper]

I'm unaware of any good arguments for it. You could probably get something from Eru's relation to Sub-Creators, but I've found nothing suggesting a state qualitative superiority.

Being omnipotent compared to someone doesn't make you an entire dimensional tier higher.

I see.

On unrelated note, Morgoth getting decapitated and regenerating is from dagor dagorath, right?

If so, does he have any other regeneration feats?

 

[Tyranno223]

I see.

On unrelated note, Morgoth getting decapitated and regenerating is from dagor dagorath, right?

If so, does he have any other regeneration feats?

The Ainur don't really have any good regeneration feats. However, they can discard and remake a body around their spirit, so they get some form of pseudo-regen from that.

Actually bodily death is traumatic for them though, and takes a while to recover from, although this seems to be more the case for Ainur who are properly tied to their body (like the Istari or Morgoth), as Sauron initially recovers decently quickly from bodily death.

Morgoth in his later years actually lacks the feature, as he became tied to his body until physical death due to him pouring his spirit into the material. He ends up physically crippled in fact.

 

[Tyranno223]

For scaling, we still need to agree on the way we treat the various "Greater Maiar" tier characters.

I'm in favour of "possibly" for most fo them, but we can probably give some of them solid tiers.

Ossë is the one I believe should get solid scaling for example, as he has no anti-feats and as he was meant to be used as a weapon against Ulmo, the 3rd greatest of the Valar.

I can see arguments for Sauron as well, but I'd like to see what both Merchant and Destroyer think.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Osse should definitely get solid scaling. I'm on the side of Sauron getting solid scaling as well in his First and Second Age keys, (due to a combination of statements and the Carcharoth scaling chain) with a "possibly" rating for his Third Age since it was never quantified how much weaker he'd become. It may be worth considering to have a Necromancer key as well, since that was by far the weakest of his forms.

I wouldn't be against "possibly" or "likely" for Arien and Tilion, since the Valar wouldn't have entrusted them with the Sun and Moon unless they legitimately believed they were qualified and powerful enough to protect their respective charges.

Anybody that scales to the Silmarils should get solid tiers (Carcharoth, Huan). Additional solid tier scaling should go to Fingolfin for fighting Morgoth, Feanor for being neck-and-neck with Fingolfin depending on statements, and Finrod for dueling Sauron and actually doing fairly well.

Ungoliant scales to Morgoth. So does Thorondor.

POSSIBLY:

• Gothmog should have "possibly" since he killed a weakened and injured Feanor.
• Ecthelion scales to Gothmog.
• The unrestricted forms of the Istari downscale from Sauron's First Age pre-corruption, which shouldn't be significantly different from his post-corruption
• Maybe Tom Bombadil? Maybe? We know that he'd at least put up a good fight against a hypothetical Third Age Sauron with the Ring, which we never saw happen but we know would be far stronger than the Sauron that's more powerful than Galadriel or Gandalf the White.
• Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody.

 

[Tyranno223]

Osse should definitely get solid scaling. I'm on the side of Sauron getting solid scaling as well in his First and Second Age keys, (due to a combination of statements and the Carcharoth scaling chain) with a "possibly" rating for his Third Age since it was never quantified how much weaker he'd become.

Sauron really should not scale in the Third Age. He was critically weakened during that stage, lacking most of his power.

I agree with the First and Second Ages though.

It may be worth considering to have a Necromancer key as well, since that was by far the weakest of his forms.

I suppose, but it's not like we have much to work off. I suppose he should be above any individual member of the White Council, as Gandalf the Grey thought all of them were needed to defeat the Necromancer.

I wouldn't be against "possibly" or "likely" for Arien and Tilion, since the Valar wouldn't have entrusted them with the Sun and Moon unless they legitimately believed they were qualified and powerful enough to protect their respective charges.

Arien I agree, but Tilion unfortunately lacks any statements or feats. He only fights unquantifiable evil spirits, which are likely below the Balrogs, since they were considered "dreadful" and powerful for Morgoth's army.

Although I am looking into the merits of 5-C Tilion and maybe 4-C Arien (though that's no longer going to change much).

Anybody that scales to the Silmarils should get solid tiers (Carcharoth, Huan). Additional solid tier scaling should go to Fingolfin for fighting Morgoth, Feanor for being neck-and-neck with Fingolfin depending on statements, and Finrod for dueling Sauron and actually doing fairly well.

Ungoliant scales to Morgoth. So does Thorondor.

Well if we agree on Sauron as solid, I agree here.

POSSIBLY:

• Gothmog should have "possibly" since he killed a weakened and injured Feanor.
• Ecthelion scales to Gothmog.
• The unrestricted forms of the Istari downscale from Sauron's First Age pre-corruption, which shouldn't be significantly different from his post-corruption

Almost all agree here. Although I maintain that the Istari should only be "At Most" due to our lack of knowledge on Sauron in his origin.

• Maybe Tom Bombadil? Maybe? We know that he'd at least put up a good fight against a hypothetical Third Age Sauron with the Ring, which we never saw happen but we know would be far stronger than the Sauron that's more powerful than Galadriel or Gandalf the White.

I don't know, but Sauron, of he regained the One Ring, would definetly be weaker than his Second Age self, but it's unknown by how much.

• Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody.

Melian I suppose can scale based on her fending off Ungoliant (although a weakened one) and being chief of the Istari.

Luthien and Huon are comparable to Sauron and the latter fights off Carcharoth.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Agreed. Melian should scale, as well as Luthien (at least via hax) and Huan scales physically to amped Carcharoth.

What are we missing?

 

[Tyranno223]

Agreed. Melian should scale, as well as Luthien (at least via hax) and Huan scales physically to amped Carcharoth.

What are we missing?

I think we should be all good really. We should probably see Merchant's thoughts before we push the scaling into the revision thread. It's a massive change afterall, since we're finally covering the Elves as well (and Aragorn).

 

[Gasper]

While looking at Morgoth's profile, I noticed he has Death Manipulation via: "Kept Húrin alive throughout all his years of imprisonment"
That sounds more like age manipulation than anything imo

 

[Tyranno223]

While looking at Morgoth's profile, I noticed he has Death Manipulation via: "Kept Húrin alive throughout all his years of imprisonment"
That sounds more like age manipulation than anything imo

Abilities are heavily outdated. They need massive revisions.