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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

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Not open for further replies.
Antvasima said:
So what currently needs to be done here?
Click to expand...
The previously agreed scaling chain and High 3-A upgrades need to be applied when I get some time for it.

My new proposal is regarding a "possibly 5-C" rating for characters that scale to/above Tilion. The evidence for that is listed above.

For the record, I did consider making this part of the original proposal, but I didn't believe it had any merit at the time. I only found it suggestible after looking into it some more.

There's also a 4-C suggestion for one character, but if you check my post, you can see that I find it rather iffy.
 
Tyranno223 said:
The previously agreed scaling chain and High 3-A upgrades need to be applied when I get some time for it.

My new proposal is regarding a "possibly 5-C" rating for characters that scale to/above Tilion. The evidence for that is listed above.

For the record, I did consider making this part of the original proposal, but I didn't believe it had any merit at the time. I only found it suggestible after looking into it some more.

There's also a 4-C suggestion for one character, but if you check my post, you can see that I find it rather iffy.
Click to expand...

Sorry Tyranno, but do you want to discuss abilities for Ainur, and maybe a little for Eru, after this scaling process is complete?
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Is there anything else that needs to be discussed before the scaling chain gets applied?
Click to expand...
Just trying to get the 5-C thing evaluated for now. I don't believe there's anything else since we agreed Glaurung and those above him scale "at most" to High 3-A (since Gothmog is the only Balrog to be in that tier, is never directly compared, and is only "possibly" in that tier).

I suppose we could discuss who scales to Aragorn, but that's best better to deal with when we decide to cover the lower tiers. One thing's for sure though, most of the Fellowship should not scale to him.
 
Can somebody explain or quote everything that we currently need to evaluate here please?
 
Tyranno223 said:
The Moon and Sun
I was considering making this part of the earlier universal or scaling revisions, but at the time I lacked information, and the topic itself is a bit off the beaten track with the former.

In the Legendarium, the Moon and Sun are, at their core, the last two offspring of the Two Trees that shone across the world before the sun and moon (and provided their light so that the Silmarils could be made).

"Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold. "

"Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"

The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor​

Previously, this has been used to dismiss the possibility of scaling either object to 5-C or 4-C, but I do believe there is some counter-evidence for this.

The Moon
In LOTR, the Moon and Sun are not just the flower/fruit, but also the containers they are housed in. For Isil, aka the Moon, the container's descriptions are fairly congruent with our real world Moon.

Island
  • Starting off with some weaker evidence, the Moon is repeatedly described as an island, rather than as a ship or boat (as previously thought on this site).
    • "...he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • "...the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • Earlier versions also add some extra context with descriptions such as "...the youth who steered the floating island of the Moon was Tilion.", and while they are unapplicable, they help convey Tolkien's intent
  • Now, "island" on its own simply makes it clear that the vessel housing the Moon was not just some boat, but rather a landmass of unknown size. This is important in conjunction with later stuff.

Real-life phenomenon
  • Isil exhibits many of the same properties that are seen in our Moon.
    • In LOTR and the Silmarillion, the Moon is shown to wane or axe, and can be seen as a sickle
      • "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl’s command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon..." - The Silmarillion: Of Maeglin
      • "‘The Moon’s the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it’s out of its running, or I’m all wrong in my reckoning. You’ll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we’d been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country." - The Lord of the Rings: The Great River
      • "The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’"
      • On that note, it also has Lunar Cycles - "Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • The Moon is a light-reflector, not a light-giver (this is more contentious, as the narration implies it gives light, but Tolkien's notes, aka the authoritative and omniscient perspective, says it is the former)
      • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B
    • The Moon is "stained" with craters as time goes on (love this rendition).
      • "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone..." - The Lord of the Rings: A Journey in the Dark
    • The Moon is said to cause Solar Eclipses
      • "Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

The world of LOTR is meant to become parallel to our world
  • See this post
  • Essentially, as the world of LOTR is meant to become the same as our world in the future, it stands to reason that the Moon itself simply is the same as our Moon, at least on a physical level. Ignoring the fruit, we know the Moon is an island, presumably of rock, we know it has craters, we know it reflects light, and we know it follows Lunar cycles. It stands to reason that the Moon is simply our Moon that happens to also have a Maia that steers it, and a magically powerful fruit on it somewhere.

Thus the Moon is a landmass of some unknown size
The Moon exhibits the natural phenomenon our Moon does as well
The Moon is meant to be parallel with our word's Moon

The Moon: Scaling

So what does this affect? Tilion does not directly push the Moon, he merely steers it, and the Valar who made the Moon scale far above a mere Moon. However, Tilion does scale to the spirits that Morgoth sent to destroy the Moon, as he ultimately defeats them after an extended clash.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."

Now, there is a clear issue with directly scaling Tilion and the spirits to the Moon, as Morgoth specifically sent them to attack Tilion, but it is likely that they were also meant to destroy the Moon, as his specific source of strife was the existence of the Moon (and Sun) itself. Thus, while you may not want to directly scale Tilion to the Moon, he "likely" should.

In regards to who scales to Tilion and the Spririts, Arien is notably above Tilion, as Morgoth does not even entertain the idea of his spirits being able to assail her (and maybe even himself - see the scaling chain)

The Balrogs also likely scale to the spirits sent to assail Tilion, as spirits are usually in reference to Ainur (unless otherwise specified), and the Balrogs are considered to be some of the mightier Ainur under Morgoth's command
  • "And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days." - The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
    • An example of spirits as Ainur
  • "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
    • Dreadful - the ability to cause suffering - a trait that is worsened the more powerful one of the Fallen Maiar are, for instance, Sauron is the more terrible/dreadful of their number
  • "Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED - X: Orcs
    • "In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology'" - This section is on Tolkien's late writings, his final thoughts on the Legendarium
    • "I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs. It is necessary to explain something of the relations of this text." - Christopher describes this writing as a finished piece by Tolkien on the Orcs. It is thus relatively authoritative

If this is accepted, Tilion, and thus those who scale to or above him, would thus be something akin to

Low 7-B, possibly 7-A to 5-C, likely far higher

The "to 5-C" would apply to the TA Sauron, Ancalagon, and LA tiers as well

The Sun
This one is a bit more troublesome to directly scale. We have far less descriptions of the Sun itself, and any consideration of it as being akin to our Sun comes from the nature of the Legendarium's universe as largely the same as our own. Otherwise, we have already noted above that

  • The Sun is a light giver
  • Natural phenomenon like Solar Eclipses can occur

There is a bit to discuss however.
  • The Sun gives off immense heat
    • "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened. " - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
  • The Sun is not contained in a physical vessel, but a vessel of flame
    • Outside the immediate vessel containing just the flower, the Sun is essentially made of the flame of Arien, who transformed herself into a naked flame - "Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
      • Admittedly, this isn't a description of plasma or the like, but we are working with a fantastical setting, not a scientific one
    • This flame is immensely hot, being capable of scorching the Moon and Tilion as well - "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

However, I am rather iffy on the Sun itself, as there are evident and obvious issues with its depictions. I would say that the size is likely comparable to our Sun at least, given the IRL nature of the wider universe, but it's all rather troubled. I have no real suggestion here.

NOTE:
"But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them, and Aulë and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon."

This reference to vessels to hold and house the Sun and Moon are likely not the same as the vessels that Tilion and Arien steer. Their purposes are as vessels that preserve the fruit/flower, while the containers or vessels that are being steered are very much larger in size, to the point of being called an "island".

Alternatively, if you do argue they're the same, then they may just be far larger than an initial look would imply. Also, if you're concerned about size issues, I doubt we can really argue that the Moon would affect the gravity of Arda, when the First Age, aka the age it was made, had a flat world.

Moreover, Arien is the vessel who carries the Sun, so it could just be that she grew out the flame as she ascended into space.
Click to expand...
This is the post I'm referring to.
 
Thank you. What are the reasons for the Low 7-B and 7-A scaling? Is that what we use currently?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you. What are the reasons for the Low 7-B and 7-A scaling? Is that what we use currently?
Click to expand...
Yes, the Low 7-B and 7-A come from the Balrogs and Sauron (in the Third Age, aka during the events of the trilogy) respectively.

Glorfindel has reason to downscale to an "at least 7-A" character, Gandalf the Grey is comparable to him, and the Balrogs are somewhat comparable to Gandalf.

Tilion should be, at bare minimum, comparable to High Elven Lords, who have repeatedly been shown combating Balrogs to certain extents, hence the usage of those tiers. I put "possibly 7-A to 5-C" as both 7-A and 5-C are "possibly" ratings. Balrogs should scale above Tilion, as the spirits sent to attack him should be inferior to Balrogs, as the fire demons are the greatest spirits under Morgoth's army (minus Sauron).

Likely far higher comes from both the Low 7-B rating having possibly far higher scaling (to tier 6) and as the 7-A rating is tied to an "at most High 3-A" rating (which is not outright used as it is a somewhat shaky link, and a level of power far above what is displayed in the timeframe).
 
Last edited:
Bumps on the road are a cause of many vehicular accidents. If you see one, please report it to the nearest authority to prevent undue harm of even death
 
Tyranno223 said:
He's gonna get some skill stuff as well. Went through the entire WoTR without getting injured once. Plus he upscales from pretty much everyone involved in the war, including the several thousand years old warrior, Legolas.
Click to expand...
Can't wait for us to discuss it in more detail one day, even if it looks a bit complicated for Jaime
 
Tyranno223 said:
The Moon and Sun
I was considering making this part of the earlier universal or scaling revisions, but at the time I lacked information, and the topic itself is a bit off the beaten track with the former.

In the Legendarium, the Moon and Sun are, at their core, the last two offspring of the Two Trees that shone across the world before the sun and moon (and provided their light so that the Silmarils could be made).

"Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold. "

"Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"

The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor​

Previously, this has been used to dismiss the possibility of scaling either object to 5-C or 4-C, but I do believe there is some counter-evidence for this.

The Moon
In LOTR, the Moon and Sun are not just the flower/fruit, but also the containers they are housed in. For Isil, aka the Moon, the container's descriptions are fairly congruent with our real world Moon.

Island
  • Starting off with some weaker evidence, the Moon is repeatedly described as an island, rather than as a ship or boat (as previously thought on this site).
    • "...he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • "...the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • Earlier versions also add some extra context with descriptions such as "...the youth who steered the floating island of the Moon was Tilion.", and while they are unapplicable, they help convey Tolkien's intent
  • Now, "island" on its own simply makes it clear that the vessel housing the Moon was not just some boat, but rather a landmass of unknown size. This is important in conjunction with later stuff.

Real-life phenomenon
  • Isil exhibits many of the same properties that are seen in our Moon.
    • In LOTR and the Silmarillion, the Moon is shown to wane or axe, and can be seen as a sickle
      • "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl’s command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon..." - The Silmarillion: Of Maeglin
      • "‘The Moon’s the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it’s out of its running, or I’m all wrong in my reckoning. You’ll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we’d been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country." - The Lord of the Rings: The Great River
      • "The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’"
      • On that note, it also has Lunar Cycles - "Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
    • The Moon is a light-reflector, not a light-giver (this is more contentious, as the narration implies it gives light, but Tolkien's notes, aka the authoritative and omniscient perspective, says it is the former)
      • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B
    • The Moon is "stained" with craters as time goes on (love this rendition).
      • "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone..." - The Lord of the Rings: A Journey in the Dark
    • The Moon is said to cause Solar Eclipses
      • "Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

The world of LOTR is meant to become parallel to our world
  • See this post
  • Essentially, as the world of LOTR is meant to become the same as our world in the future, it stands to reason that the Moon itself simply is the same as our Moon, at least on a physical level. Ignoring the fruit, we know the Moon is an island, presumably of rock, we know it has craters, we know it reflects light, and we know it follows Lunar cycles. It stands to reason that the Moon is simply our Moon that happens to also have a Maia that steers it, and a magically powerful fruit on it somewhere.

Thus the Moon is a landmass of some unknown size
The Moon exhibits the natural phenomenon our Moon does as well
The Moon is meant to be parallel with our word's Moon

The Moon: Scaling

So what does this affect? Tilion does not directly push the Moon, he merely steers it, and the Valar who made the Moon scale far above a mere Moon. However, Tilion does scale to the spirits that Morgoth sent to destroy the Moon, as he ultimately defeats them after an extended clash.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."

Now, there is a clear issue with directly scaling Tilion and the spirits to the Moon, as Morgoth specifically sent them to attack Tilion, but it is likely that they were also meant to destroy the Moon, as his specific source of strife was the existence of the Moon (and Sun) itself. Thus, while you may not want to directly scale Tilion to the Moon, he "likely" should.

In regards to who scales to Tilion and the Spririts, Arien is notably above Tilion, as Morgoth does not even entertain the idea of his spirits being able to assail her (and maybe even himself - see the scaling chain)

The Balrogs also likely scale to the spirits sent to assail Tilion, as spirits are usually in reference to Ainur (unless otherwise specified), and the Balrogs are considered to be some of the mightier Ainur under Morgoth's command
  • "And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days." - The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
    • An example of spirits as Ainur
  • "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
    • Dreadful - the ability to cause suffering - a trait that is worsened the more powerful one of the Fallen Maiar are, for instance, Sauron is the more terrible/dreadful of their number
  • "Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED - X: Orcs
    • "In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology'" - This section is on Tolkien's late writings, his final thoughts on the Legendarium
    • "I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs. It is necessary to explain something of the relations of this text." - Christopher describes this writing as a finished piece by Tolkien on the Orcs. It is thus relatively authoritative

If this is accepted, Tilion, and thus those who scale to or above him, would thus be something akin to

Low 7-B, possibly 7-A to 5-C, likely far higher

The "to 5-C" would apply to the TA Sauron, Ancalagon, and LA tiers as well

The Sun
This one is a bit more troublesome to directly scale. We have far less descriptions of the Sun itself, and any consideration of it as being akin to our Sun comes from the nature of the Legendarium's universe as largely the same as our own. Otherwise, we have already noted above that

  • The Sun is a light giver
  • Natural phenomenon like Solar Eclipses can occur

There is a bit to discuss however.
  • The Sun gives off immense heat
    • "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened. " - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
  • The Sun is not contained in a physical vessel, but a vessel of flame
    • Outside the immediate vessel containing just the flower, the Sun is essentially made of the flame of Arien, who transformed herself into a naked flame - "Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
      • Admittedly, this isn't a description of plasma or the like, but we are working with a fantastical setting, not a scientific one
    • This flame is immensely hot, being capable of scorching the Moon and Tilion as well - "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

However, I am rather iffy on the Sun itself, as there are evident and obvious issues with its depictions. I would say that the size is likely comparable to our Sun at least, given the IRL nature of the wider universe, but it's all rather troubled. I have no real suggestion here.

NOTE:
"But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them, and Aulë and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon."

This reference to vessels to hold and house the Sun and Moon are likely not the same as the vessels that Tilion and Arien steer. Their purposes are as vessels that preserve the fruit/flower, while the containers or vessels that are being steered are very much larger in size, to the point of being called an "island".

Alternatively, if you do argue they're the same, then they may just be far larger than an initial look would imply. Also, if you're concerned about size issues, I doubt we can really argue that the Moon would affect the gravity of Arda, when the First Age, aka the age it was made, had a flat world.

Moreover, Arien is the vessel who carries the Sun, so it could just be that she grew out the flame as she ascended into space.
Click to expand...
Looks good to me.
 
Hey fellas, can I get a rundown on why Aragorn is scaled to both Balrogs and Maiar and has higher ratings than Gandalf/Saruman for every key save for their Tier 1 keys?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Hey fellas, can I get a rundown on why Aragorn is scaled to both Balrogs and Maiar
Click to expand...
He upscales from individual Nazgul, who can threaten and overwhelm the likes of Gandalf the Grey or Glorfindel in large enough numbers. Six was enough to force Gandalf the Grey to flee after one night of combat for example.

  • Aragorn beat back 5 of the Nazgul from Weathertop (including the Witch-King)
  • Tolkien postulates that, if he had been present at Sarn Ford, the Dunedain Rangers might have been able to fend off all Nine Ringwraiths
  • The Witch-King considered him to be a great power
All of this is before he gains Anduril btw.

On some weaker notes, Aragorn also tries to confron the Balrog, but Gandalf breaks the bridge before he can try and help... but Boromir does the same, and he had difficulty hurting a troll. Also, he had Anduril at this point in the story

Mr._Bambu said:
has higher ratings than Gandalf/Saruman for every key save for their Tier 1 keys?
Click to expand...
Everyone is being updated. It's a bit of slow process.

Saruman heavily upscales from Aragorn anyway, and Gandalf the Grey would do so as well (to a lesser extent).

Btw, I posted the scaling revisions earlier in this thread, so it's all there if you want to see the detailed reasoning.
 
Tyranno223 said:
He upscales from individual Nazgul, who can threaten and overwhelm the likes of Gandalf the Grey or Glorfindel in large enough numbers. Six was enough to force Gandalf the Grey to flee after one night of combat for example.

  • Aragorn beat back 5 of the Nazgul from Weathertop (including the Witch-King)
  • Tolkien postulates that, if he had been present at Sarn Ford, the Dunedain Rangers might have been able to fend off all Nine Ringwraiths
  • The Witch-King considered him to be a great power
All of this is before he gains Anduril btw.

On some weaker notes, Aragorn also tries to confron the Balrog, but Gandalf breaks the bridge before he can try and help... but Boromir does the same, and he had difficulty hurting a troll. Also, he had Anduril at this point in the story


Everyone is being updated. It's a bit of slow process.

Saruman heavily upscales from Aragorn anyway, and Gandalf the Grey would do so as well (to a lesser extent).

Btw, I posted the scaling revisions earlier in this thread, so it's all there if you want to see the detailed reasoning.
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Surely you can agree, though, that scaling even Numenoreans to full-on Balrogs and Maiar creates certain problems within the verse

Listen, I don't intend to go back and read Lord of the Rings again to prove this is silly, as I'm sure you yourself can probably substantiate what I'm saying. Aragorn being scaled to god-tiers on Ea is very very silly, even if he did fend off the Nazgul. "Great power" is also far too vague for my tastes. Aragorn's consistent feats show him as a superior to men, that much is obviously true, but not to such an extreme extent like this. If this evidence alone is used to scale Aragorn so crazily high, then I'm against it.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Surely you can agree, though, that scaling even Numenoreans to full-on Balrogs and Maiar creates certain problems within the verse
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It's not that contradictory. Elendil fights and kills Sauron (weakened yes, but still in possession of the One Ring) alongside Gil-Galad. Personally I find it off (heck, I find High 3-A Sauron off), but the way powerscaling works makes this point moot.

The displays of feats and scaling ends up with this result, this kind of argument is from pure incredulity

Mr._Bambu said:
Listen, I don't intend to go back and read Lord of the Rings again to prove this is silly,
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I know what you mean, but this doesn't help the argument from incredulity issue here.

Mr._Bambu said:
as I'm sure you yourself can probably substantiate what I'm saying. Aragorn being scaled to god-tiers on Ea is very very silly, even if he did fend off the Nazgul. "Great power" is also far too vague for my tastes. Aragorn's consistent feats show him as a superior to men, that much is obviously true, but not to such an extreme extent like this. If this evidence alone is used to scale Aragorn so crazily high, then I'm against it.
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He's got no real anti-feats that bring him down. He is legitimately never harmed in the books, with the Siege of Gondor emphasizing this with him. Moreover, we have humans like Turin who killed a dragon that upscales from Balrogs. Elendil we know as well to slay Sauron's physical form.

Aragorn being at this level isn't contradicted (heck, letter 155 even notes "A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'" which mainly refers to healing, but has other obvious implications).
 
Aragorn's rating is surprisingly solid. If you have a problem with it, you need a better argument than incredulity, otherwise I'd have downgraded 60% of the verse.
 
It's not that contradictory. Elendil fights and kills Sauron (weakened yes, but still in possession of the One Ring) alongside Gil-Galad. Personally I find it off (heck, I find High 3-A Sauron off), but the way powerscaling works makes this point moot.
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Consistency and outliers are still very large considerations. Powerscaling is one thing, yes, but if it flies in the face of what the character is generally able to do, then it doesn't count for squat.

I would not consider scaring off the Nazgul to be enough to consistently put Aragorn at this level. That's my two cents on the topic.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Consistency and outliers are still very large considerations. Powerscaling is one thing, yes, but if it flies in the face of what the character is generally able to do, then it doesn't count for squat.

I would not consider scaring off the Nazgul to be enough to consistently put Aragorn at this level. That's my two cents on the topic.
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Again, what is the anti-feat? Where is the outlier? Aragorn is never harmed, never really struggles against humans, and is emphasised as above the average man in every way.

Sauron fears him. The Witch-King considers him to be powerful. He fends off groups of Nazgul, even Tolkien outright says he could have helped his fellow rangers defeat all Nine Nazgul if he was present.
 
I would not, personally, go with the idea that "above the average man" equates to "being a nuclear bomb amongst the field of battle".

Like I said, I don't intend to re-read Lord of the Rings to show you the numerous instances of Aragorn in a desperate situation against... orcs. Just normal orcs. Normally outnumbered, but definitely conceivably in danger of losing. I can personally vouch, at least, that Aragorn dodges attacks from normal guys with sincerity.
So great a power and royalty was revealed in Aragorn, as he stood
there alone above the ruined gates before the host of his enemies, that
many of the wild men paused, and looked back over their shoulders to
the valley, and some looked up doubtfully at the sky. But the Orcs
laughed with loud voices; and a hail of darts and arrows whistled
over the wall, as Aragorn leaped down.
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If he is a greater power than Gandalf, why is it not him saving Helm's Deep? Why does he not simply turn the tide of battle? Why does he bother parleying with the Uruk-Hai?

Like I said, I don't intend to read 1000ish pages of just the main book, again, to prove you wrong. I think you're more than capable of seeing my point. But this was just Helm's Deep, a passage that struck out in my mind of a case where like... our ratings would have to be obviously massively wrong for the book to be like that, and yet it is one of the most significant passages of the entire novel.
 
Fighting against the Nazgul is, in my opinion, also not the best indicator of strength, given how the strongest one of them goes out.

"Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground...; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing..., a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."

Not only does Eowyn, who I doubt is a moon buster, famously kill him, but even Merry manages to injure him significantly. I'm not saying that their ratings are unfair, but they are at the very least very inconsistent.
 
The Nazgul seem very inconsistent themselves but I'm less certain about downscaling them.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Like I said, I don't intend to re-read Lord of the Rings to show you the numerous instances of Aragorn in a desperate situation against... orcs. Just normal orcs. Normally outnumbered, but definitely conceivably in danger of losing. I can personally vouch, at least, that Aragorn dodges attacks from normal guys with sincerity.
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Finrod Felagund nearly died to orcs. Sauron struggled to defeat him

Sauron is genuinely driven back by Numenorean armies

Feanor was injured by orcs

LotR as a verse is full of these sorts of moments that we would consider PIS or just plain dumb from a scaling position. Aragorn isn't too affected by this, as note dbelow.

Mr._Bambu said:
If he is a greater power than Gandalf, why is it not him saving Helm's Deep? Why does he not simply turn the tide of battle? Why does he bother parleying with the Uruk-Hai?
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Your memory of the book is a bit off. The parley was not a real one (even the Uruks noted as such), Aragorn simply went outside, warned the army to F off or die, and then went back inside and charged out.

He actually does turn the tide of battle alongside the sallying defenders. Plus he literally slaughters Uruks every time he engages them in battle. He's never in danger. The real issue is that he's a guy with a sword. A strong guy with a sword, but there's only so many he can cut at a time.

Mr._Bambu said:
Like I said, I don't intend to read 1000ish pages of just the main book, again, to prove you wrong. I think you're more than capable of seeing my point. But this was just Helm's Deep, a passage that struck out in my mind of a case where like... our ratings would have to be obviously massively wrong for the book to be like that, and yet it is one of the most significant passages of the entire novel.
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I'm sorry, but in this case I can't agree that much. Aragorn is a battle turner. Every time he shows up to a battle, he slaughters the enemy and the battle is won, or is about to be won.

Helms deep is the exception, and even then, he personally slaughters the enemy army with not issue. The problem is that he's one guy.


Armorchompy said:
"Over the bridge!" cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. "Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you."

This being about the Balrog, obviously.
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Yes, the Balrog scales above Aragorn. This was never in contention. Aragorn scales above Nazgul who downscale from Balrog level characters.

Armorchompy said:
Fighting against the Nazgul is, in my opinion, also not the best indicator of strength, given how the strongest one of them goes out.

"Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground...; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing..., a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."

Not only does Eowyn, who I doubt is a moon buster, famously kill him, but even Merry manages to injure him significantly.
Click to expand...
This is an incredibly poor take. The weapon Merry has is literally enchanted to undo the Witch-King's protections and magics. It's only when he's stabbed with it that Eowyn can kill him.
 
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