The Moon and Sun
I was considering making this part of the earlier universal or scaling revisions, but at the time I lacked information, and the topic itself is a bit off the beaten track with the former.
In the Legendarium, the Moon and Sun are, at their core, the last two offspring of the Two Trees that shone across the world before the sun and moon (and provided their light so that the Silmarils could be made).
"
Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold. "
"
Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"
Previously, this has been used to dismiss the possibility of scaling either object to 5-C or 4-C, but I do believe there is some counter-evidence for this.
The Moon
In LOTR, the Moon and Sun are not just the flower/fruit, but also the containers they are housed in. For Isil, aka the Moon, the container's descriptions are fairly congruent with our real world Moon.
Island
- Starting off with some weaker evidence, the Moon is repeatedly described as an island, rather than as a ship or boat (as previously thought on this site).
- "...he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
- "...the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
- Earlier versions also add some extra context with descriptions such as "...the youth who steered the floating island of the Moon was Tilion.", and while they are unapplicable, they help convey Tolkien's intent
- Now, "island" on its own simply makes it clear that the vessel housing the Moon was not just some boat, but rather a landmass of unknown size. This is important in conjunction with later stuff.
Real-life phenomenon
- Isil exhibits many of the same properties that are seen in our Moon.
- In LOTR and the Silmarillion, the Moon is shown to wane or axe, and can be seen as a sickle
- "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl’s command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon..." - The Silmarillion: Of Maeglin
- "‘The Moon’s the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it’s out of its running, or I’m all wrong in my reckoning. You’ll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we’d been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country." - The Lord of the Rings: The Great River
- "The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’"
- On that note, it also has Lunar Cycles - "Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
- The Moon is a light-reflector, not a light-giver (this is more contentious, as the narration implies it gives light, but Tolkien's notes, aka the authoritative and omniscient perspective, says it is the former)
- "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B
- The Moon is "stained" with craters as time goes on (love this rendition).
- "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone..." - The Lord of the Rings: A Journey in the Dark
- The Moon is said to cause Solar Eclipses
- "Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day" - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
The world of LOTR is meant to become parallel to our world
- See this post
- Essentially, as the world of LOTR is meant to become the same as our world in the future, it stands to reason that the Moon itself simply is the same as our Moon, at least on a physical level. Ignoring the fruit, we know the Moon is an island, presumably of rock, we know it has craters, we know it reflects light, and we know it follows Lunar cycles. It stands to reason that the Moon is simply our Moon that happens to also have a Maia that steers it, and a magically powerful fruit on it somewhere.
Thus the Moon is a landmass of some unknown size
The Moon exhibits the natural phenomenon our Moon does as well
The Moon is meant to be parallel with our word's Moon
The Moon: Scaling
So what does this affect? Tilion does not directly push the Moon, he merely steers it, and the Valar who made the Moon scale far above a mere Moon. However, Tilion does scale to the spirits that Morgoth sent to destroy the Moon, as he ultimately defeats them after an extended clash.
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But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious."
Now, there is a clear issue with directly scaling Tilion and the spirits to the Moon, as Morgoth specifically sent them to attack Tilion, but it is likely that they were also meant to destroy the Moon, as his specific source of strife was the existence of the Moon (and Sun) itself. Thus, while you may not want to directly scale Tilion to the Moon, he "likely" should.
In regards to who scales to Tilion and the Spririts, Arien is notably above Tilion, as Morgoth does not even entertain the idea of his spirits being able to assail her (and maybe even himself -
see the scaling chain)
The Balrogs also likely scale to the spirits sent to assail Tilion, as spirits are usually in reference to Ainur (unless otherwise specified), and the Balrogs are considered to be some of the mightier Ainur under Morgoth's command
- "And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days." - The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
- An example of spirits as Ainur
- "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
- Dreadful - the ability to cause suffering - a trait that is worsened the more powerful one of the Fallen Maiar are, for instance, Sauron is the more terrible/dreadful of their number
- "Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED - X: Orcs
- "In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology'" - This section is on Tolkien's late writings, his final thoughts on the Legendarium
- "I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs. It is necessary to explain something of the relations of this text." - Christopher describes this writing as a finished piece by Tolkien on the Orcs. It is thus relatively authoritative
If this is accepted, Tilion, and thus those who scale to or above him, would thus be something akin to
Low 7-B, possibly
7-A to
5-C, likely far higher
The "to
5-C" would apply to the TA Sauron, Ancalagon, and LA tiers as well
The Sun
This one is a bit more troublesome to directly scale. We have far less descriptions of the Sun itself, and any consideration of it as being akin to our Sun comes from the nature of the Legendarium's universe as largely the same as our own. Otherwise, we have already noted above that
- The Sun is a light giver
- Natural phenomenon like Solar Eclipses can occur
There is a bit to discuss however.
- The Sun gives off immense heat
- "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened. " - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
- The Sun is not contained in a physical vessel, but a vessel of flame
- Outside the immediate vessel containing just the flower, the Sun is essentially made of the flame of Arien, who transformed herself into a naked flame - "Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
- Admittedly, this isn't a description of plasma or the like, but we are working with a fantastical setting, not a scientific one
- This flame is immensely hot, being capable of scorching the Moon and Tilion as well - "But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened." - The Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
However, I am rather iffy on the Sun itself, as there are evident and obvious issues with its depictions. I would say that the size is likely comparable to our Sun at least, given the IRL nature of the wider universe, but it's all rather troubled. I have no real suggestion here.
NOTE:
"
But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them, and Aulë and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon."
This reference to vessels to hold and house the Sun and Moon are likely not the same as the vessels that Tilion and Arien steer. Their purposes are as vessels that preserve the fruit/flower, while the containers or vessels that are being steered are very much larger in size, to the point of being called an "island".
Alternatively, if you do argue they're the same, then they may just be far larger than an initial look would imply. Also, if you're concerned about size issues, I doubt we can really argue that the Moon would affect the gravity of Arda, when the First Age, aka the age it was made, had a flat world.
Moreover, Arien is the vessel who carries the Sun, so it could just be that she grew out the flame as she ascended into space.
