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I'm glad this is finally happening. The LotR pages have needed this revision for years.
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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tyranno223
- Start date
- 2,804
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- Thread starter
- #82
Ikr. It's been slow for ages, but at least we can finally bring the High Elves up to speed. We do need a good look into the normal elves, dwarves and humans though. Characters like Legolas, Gimli, etc are rated based off a movie calc. New pages should also eventually be made.
Then there's abilities, which is a whole other monster to tackle.
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That'll be quite the task. At least it won't be nearly as controversial, since the vast majority of the members of the humanoid races don't remotely scale to their own top tiers.
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- #84
Yup. Plus most of the stuff is pretty blatant. We even have Tolkien outright state stuff like Elves being able to move their hands and stuff FTE when motivated.
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We currently rate that as Subsonic, yeah?
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- #86
I believe so. It would only be combat speed though.
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That's the only one that really matters on this wiki anyway, so I'll take it.
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- #89
Don't know. The closest thing would be Morgoth returning through the Door of Night from the Timeless Void.
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Had a few more thoughts on the White Council scaling, as our current course would see them gain a "At Most High 3-A" rating, which completely shatters the scaling chain.
But firstly, let me note that the Nazgul, Gandalf the Grey, and the Balrogs should probably scale to 7-A, be it solidly or "likely" or "possibly".
The Unfinished Tales discusses the meeting between the Nazgul and Saruman of Many Colours, noting first
"Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment." - The dread here is twofold, the dread of failing to deceive or serve Sauron is present, but also the potential dread of coming to ruin and torment with the arrival of the Witch-King and the Nine.
There's some more to note here, as "The Lord of the Nazgûl spared the life of the Wormtongue, not out of pity, but because he deemed that so great a terror was upon him that he would never dare to speak of their encounter (as proved true), and he saw that the creature was evil and was likely to do great harm yet to Saruman, if he lived. So he left him lying on the ground, and rode away, and did not trouble to go back to Isengard. Sauron's vengeance could wait. " - implying the Nazgul could have done harm to Saruman had they elected to go back to Isengard and attack.
Version C of this text expands on this and notes - "In C, on the other hand, the Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear and despair, and perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, and to beg for his pardon and help." - potentially implying the combined might of the Nine is something Saruman fears.
Thus, it is suggestible Saruman can be harmed by the Nazgul, which is congruent to Glorfindel being unable to withstand all the Nine (be it circumstantial or otherwise). There is also this
"Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself. " - Which implies that, while it would take great effort, the Nazgul could have assailed Isengard and won if they had elected to, as the only company the Witch-King had was his fellow Ringwraiths.
Gandalf the Grey was able to fend off the combined Nine at night, albeit only that night as he had to flee immediately, which allows him to scale too. The Balrogs naturally scale as well. They are thus all comparable, and thus ratable as 7-A from downscaling to Sauron's shaking of Mordor. That key of Sauron should then gain an "At Least" in my opinion, doubly so since he was doing that as a casual message.
Now, to the earlier problem. Glorfindel is comparable to the Maiar in Valinor who were his friends, and Olorin was one of them. However, Glorfindel and Galadriel (who is above him) scale below Gandalf the White who is below himself as Olorin to an unknown degree, and is below Sauron (W/O Ring) whose best feats are only around 7-A, albeit somewhat casually. We can just say screw it, and have everyone under the sun have an "At Most High 3-A" key, but it simply doesn't work with how the displays of might work in LOTR. At least in the Silmarillion, we know the Ainur are capable of cosmic feats, with the Greater Maiar being used against Valar as weapons while being comparable, while the Valar themselves are able to make constellations and control the material universe at will. The Eldar then scale off that.
In LOTR, we lack that solidity, as the Istari are meant to be limiting their power, Sauron is a crippled mess, and all the powerful Eldar who scale directly to the Greater Maiar are gone. All the best feats are relatively limited, and the only tie to the upper scaling comes from Glorfindel being almost a peer to the Maiar of Valinor. But this is a general statement, which may imply he is a peer to Olorin, or only the lesser Maiar who would be far weaker than Olorin (like... Tilion somehow...) Now, I may be arguing from incredulity here to some extent, but it feels incredibly iffy to scale everyone from Aragorn to the Nazgul to the Greater Maiar based on a line about Glorfindel that may or may not refer to the likes of Olorin.
My suggestion is to do the same thing we are doing with Ancalagon, and give him a "likely far higher" note, to acknowledge he may scale to the likes of Olorin, but that it is not certain, due to the general way the statement may be applied, and due to the lack of displayed showings that he can scale to. The same applies to those who scale to him.
But firstly, let me note that the Nazgul, Gandalf the Grey, and the Balrogs should probably scale to 7-A, be it solidly or "likely" or "possibly".
The Unfinished Tales discusses the meeting between the Nazgul and Saruman of Many Colours, noting first
"Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment." - The dread here is twofold, the dread of failing to deceive or serve Sauron is present, but also the potential dread of coming to ruin and torment with the arrival of the Witch-King and the Nine.
There's some more to note here, as "The Lord of the Nazgûl spared the life of the Wormtongue, not out of pity, but because he deemed that so great a terror was upon him that he would never dare to speak of their encounter (as proved true), and he saw that the creature was evil and was likely to do great harm yet to Saruman, if he lived. So he left him lying on the ground, and rode away, and did not trouble to go back to Isengard. Sauron's vengeance could wait. " - implying the Nazgul could have done harm to Saruman had they elected to go back to Isengard and attack.
Version C of this text expands on this and notes - "In C, on the other hand, the Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear and despair, and perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, and to beg for his pardon and help." - potentially implying the combined might of the Nine is something Saruman fears.
Thus, it is suggestible Saruman can be harmed by the Nazgul, which is congruent to Glorfindel being unable to withstand all the Nine (be it circumstantial or otherwise). There is also this
"Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself. " - Which implies that, while it would take great effort, the Nazgul could have assailed Isengard and won if they had elected to, as the only company the Witch-King had was his fellow Ringwraiths.
Gandalf the Grey was able to fend off the combined Nine at night, albeit only that night as he had to flee immediately, which allows him to scale too. The Balrogs naturally scale as well. They are thus all comparable, and thus ratable as 7-A from downscaling to Sauron's shaking of Mordor. That key of Sauron should then gain an "At Least" in my opinion, doubly so since he was doing that as a casual message.
Now, to the earlier problem. Glorfindel is comparable to the Maiar in Valinor who were his friends, and Olorin was one of them. However, Glorfindel and Galadriel (who is above him) scale below Gandalf the White who is below himself as Olorin to an unknown degree, and is below Sauron (W/O Ring) whose best feats are only around 7-A, albeit somewhat casually. We can just say screw it, and have everyone under the sun have an "At Most High 3-A" key, but it simply doesn't work with how the displays of might work in LOTR. At least in the Silmarillion, we know the Ainur are capable of cosmic feats, with the Greater Maiar being used against Valar as weapons while being comparable, while the Valar themselves are able to make constellations and control the material universe at will. The Eldar then scale off that.
In LOTR, we lack that solidity, as the Istari are meant to be limiting their power, Sauron is a crippled mess, and all the powerful Eldar who scale directly to the Greater Maiar are gone. All the best feats are relatively limited, and the only tie to the upper scaling comes from Glorfindel being almost a peer to the Maiar of Valinor. But this is a general statement, which may imply he is a peer to Olorin, or only the lesser Maiar who would be far weaker than Olorin (like... Tilion somehow...) Now, I may be arguing from incredulity here to some extent, but it feels incredibly iffy to scale everyone from Aragorn to the Nazgul to the Greater Maiar based on a line about Glorfindel that may or may not refer to the likes of Olorin.
My suggestion is to do the same thing we are doing with Ancalagon, and give him a "likely far higher" note, to acknowledge he may scale to the likes of Olorin, but that it is not certain, due to the general way the statement may be applied, and due to the lack of displayed showings that he can scale to. The same applies to those who scale to him.
- 2,804
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- Thread starter
- #91
For a further expansion, the Istari should be
"At least 7-A, possibly High 7-A, at most High 3-A" in their unrestricted key. At least 7-A for upscaling from Sauron and Gandalf the White, possibly High 7-A, at most High 3-A for possibly being Greater Maiar.
Sauron would be "At least 7-A, likely far higher" for his casual feat, while Gandalf the White would be the same for having an extended spiritual/mental battle with him over Amon Hen, likely making him use more force than he did for a casual message, while the Witch-King's second key would scale to that too.
For the White Council and Nazgul, I would actually like to put them at "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A, likely far higher" for Glorfindel being possibly comparable to the Maiar of Valinor, which may make him comparable (albeit far far weaker) to Olorin. At minimum, he would still scale to Low 7-B just for being far above a Balrog.
The line referring to his second key even notes that it isn't certain that they were friends in Valinor or had met prior, only putting it at probable, making it suggestible to put them at "likely" rather than a solid rating.
"We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among those Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar (2) for ages: from the last years of the First Age, through the Second Age, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle- earth. It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olorin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most power- ful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never re- appeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer."
A later line does put alternatively say they definitely became friends, but the chronology makes it even more iffy, as he became a companion and nigh equal to Maiar before he ever met Olorin, meaning it does not apply to said (potential) Greater Maia. The fact he became a follower of Olorin, makes it clear there was likely a difference between them as well.
"For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the com- panionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru."
"At least 7-A, possibly High 7-A, at most High 3-A" in their unrestricted key. At least 7-A for upscaling from Sauron and Gandalf the White, possibly High 7-A, at most High 3-A for possibly being Greater Maiar.
Sauron would be "At least 7-A, likely far higher" for his casual feat, while Gandalf the White would be the same for having an extended spiritual/mental battle with him over Amon Hen, likely making him use more force than he did for a casual message, while the Witch-King's second key would scale to that too.
For the White Council and Nazgul, I would actually like to put them at "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A, likely far higher" for Glorfindel being possibly comparable to the Maiar of Valinor, which may make him comparable (albeit far far weaker) to Olorin. At minimum, he would still scale to Low 7-B just for being far above a Balrog.
The line referring to his second key even notes that it isn't certain that they were friends in Valinor or had met prior, only putting it at probable, making it suggestible to put them at "likely" rather than a solid rating.
"We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among those Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar (2) for ages: from the last years of the First Age, through the Second Age, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle- earth. It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olorin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most power- ful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never re- appeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer."
A later line does put alternatively say they definitely became friends, but the chronology makes it even more iffy, as he became a companion and nigh equal to Maiar before he ever met Olorin, meaning it does not apply to said (potential) Greater Maia. The fact he became a follower of Olorin, makes it clear there was likely a difference between them as well.
"For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the com- panionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru."
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Agreed with the proposed scaling
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Great. I believe that's the last major issue resolved. Should we wait for Merchant some more or just push this into the revision thread some time and let him give his thoughts while it's going on?
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I don't see why we can't move forward as long as we make sure he can give his thoughts in either thread
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- #95
Sure. I'll make an abridged version of our agreed scaling before pushing it into the revision thread some time in the future. I'll link it back here in case people want to see the full process.
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Sounds like a plan. I'll be there to provide any necessary commentary
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Bit of a pain, but I just realised Arien no longer has reason to scale to Ancalagon as "Greater Maiar" are just flat out High 3-A. That makes her "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A, probably High 3-A." What a damn mouthful.
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- #99
They created the material universe in LOTR and the concepts within it. However, Eru was the one to actually give life to the universe. Their role as sub-creators is a bit different from Sub-Creators like Tolkien, who wrote the Legendarium.
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Wait is Tolkien meant to be like fictional representation of him or something as a Sub-Creator?
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- #102
He views Eru as a literal manifestation of God to a certain extent. All fictions are just part of God's infinite potential in Tolkien's view.
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God is Eru. See the links on the profile.
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Then i may misunderstand you.
I thought you said Eru is a manifestation of a greater god or something.
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- #106
All good. There is actually a whole "Christian theology + Aristotelian thought" aspect to the Legendarium in the background, but I'm avoiding it until the profiles are up to a better standard.
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Interesting.
Can i see what are the ideas behind this "Christian theology" in Legendarium or should i wait till everything is accepted?
Sorry if i'm a little to nosey. Lol
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- #108
There's not much right now. I haven't given it a good look yet. Stuff I have seen is the Catholic idea of God being outside the world but sustaining it and stuff.
Well it is a discussion thread, so no worries. Just keep it in moderation. For example, I don't know why Tolkien decides to randomly switch to a fox's POV in the Fellowship, nor do I know where the Ent-wives are.
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- #111
They created concepts, so yes. Not sure about transduality.
Probably, but it'll be far below High 3-A.
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- #113
Perhaps, but the only characters involved in that clash scale quite far above it.
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- #115
Well she does literally devour light and... excretes darkness (as belches), but I'm unsure if that's Void Manipulation. Although, characters who affect the Timeless Void (like Eru) should probably get it.
Not sure. Is that a reference to the destruction of Beleriand? If so, that was the result of a war with at least 1 Greater Maia (2 if you count Thoronodr), a host of Great Eagles (also Maiar), armies of Unwearied High Elves, likely some dwarves, men, and Elves (Sindar and Noldor) vs Balrogs, Dragons (winged and wingless), orcs, and Trolls.
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Hmmm, well, her being described as "emptiness" should help, could be wrong.
I think so.
Though i don't think trolls, orcs, Elves, dwarves and man contributed to that.
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“But the ultimate problem of Free Will in its relation to the Foreknowledge of a Designer (both of the plane of Umbar and of the Mind and the blending of both in Incarnate Mind), Eru, “the Author of the Great Tale”, was of course not resolved by the Eldar… Until the appearance of Will all is mere preparation, interesting only on a quite different & lower plane: like mathematics or observing the physical events of the world or in a similar way the workings of a machine.”
“Umbar thus relates to the net-work of “chances” (largely physical) which is, or is not, used by rational persons with “free will”. That aspect of things which we might include in Fate – the “determination” that we each carry about with us in our given created character (which later acts and experience may modify but not fundamentally change) was not included in Umbar by the Eldar; who said that if it was in any way similar it was on a different “plane”. But the ultimate problem of Free Will in its relation to the Foreknowledge of a Designer (both of the plane of Umbar and of the Mind and the blending of both in Incarnate Mind), Eru, “the Author of the Great Tale”, was of course not resolved by the Eldar.”
“And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.”
”About all the World are the Ilurambar or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.”
“Umbar thus relates to the net-work of “chances” (largely physical) which is, or is not, used by rational persons with “free will”. That aspect of things which we might include in Fate – the “determination” that we each carry about with us in our given created character (which later acts and experience may modify but not fundamentally change) was not included in Umbar by the Eldar; who said that if it was in any way similar it was on a different “plane”. But the ultimate problem of Free Will in its relation to the Foreknowledge of a Designer (both of the plane of Umbar and of the Mind and the blending of both in Incarnate Mind), Eru, “the Author of the Great Tale”, was of course not resolved by the Eldar.”
“And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.”
”About all the World are the Ilurambar or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.”
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Can we calculate the lifting feat for Ulmo lifting the island across the Ocean?
"Tol Eressëa 'The Lonely Isle' (also simply Eressëa), on which the Vanyar and the Noldor and afterwards the Teleri were drawn across the ocean by Ulmo, and which was at last rooted in the Bay of Eldamar near the coasts of Aman, On Eressea the Teleri long remained before they went to Alqualonde, and there dwelt many of the Noldor and the Sindar after the ending of the First Age." - The Silmarillion
And a few feats for Melkor:
He can effect all of arda, if not all of Eä.
"For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Eä."
He destroyed a big chunk of the Earth and created the moon.
"But this Melkor could not do, for the Earth may not be wholly destroyed against its fate; nevertheless Melkor took a portion of it, and seized it for his own, and reft it away; and he made it a little earth of his own, and it wheeled round about in the sky, following the greater earth wheresoever it went, so that Melkor could observe thence all that happened below, and could send forth his malice and trouble the seas and shake the lands. And still there is rumour among the Eldar of the war in which the Valar assaulted the stronghold of Melkor, and cast him out, and removed it further from the Earth, and it remains in the sky, Ithil whom Men call the Moon. There is both blinding heat and cold intolerable, as might be looked for in any work of Melkor, but at least it is clean, yet utterly barren; and naught liveth there, nor ever hath, nor shall. And herein is revealed again the words of Iluvatar; for Ithil has become a mirror to the greater Earth, catching the light of the Sun, when she is invisible; and because of the malice silver gas veeb made of gold, and moonlight of sunlight, and Earth in its anguish and loss has been greatly enriched."
Able to destroy all of Arda and return everything back to the formless Chaos.
"Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled into a formless chaos."
In his True state, his light was so powerful that not even other Ainur could endure the brightness. Literally Low 1-C light manipulation lol
"As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look;"
Edit: mention of more than one Eä:
"For they hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä."
"Tol Eressëa 'The Lonely Isle' (also simply Eressëa), on which the Vanyar and the Noldor and afterwards the Teleri were drawn across the ocean by Ulmo, and which was at last rooted in the Bay of Eldamar near the coasts of Aman, On Eressea the Teleri long remained before they went to Alqualonde, and there dwelt many of the Noldor and the Sindar after the ending of the First Age." - The Silmarillion
And a few feats for Melkor:
He can effect all of arda, if not all of Eä.
"For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Eä."
He destroyed a big chunk of the Earth and created the moon.
"But this Melkor could not do, for the Earth may not be wholly destroyed against its fate; nevertheless Melkor took a portion of it, and seized it for his own, and reft it away; and he made it a little earth of his own, and it wheeled round about in the sky, following the greater earth wheresoever it went, so that Melkor could observe thence all that happened below, and could send forth his malice and trouble the seas and shake the lands. And still there is rumour among the Eldar of the war in which the Valar assaulted the stronghold of Melkor, and cast him out, and removed it further from the Earth, and it remains in the sky, Ithil whom Men call the Moon. There is both blinding heat and cold intolerable, as might be looked for in any work of Melkor, but at least it is clean, yet utterly barren; and naught liveth there, nor ever hath, nor shall. And herein is revealed again the words of Iluvatar; for Ithil has become a mirror to the greater Earth, catching the light of the Sun, when she is invisible; and because of the malice silver gas veeb made of gold, and moonlight of sunlight, and Earth in its anguish and loss has been greatly enriched."
Able to destroy all of Arda and return everything back to the formless Chaos.
"Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled into a formless chaos."
In his True state, his light was so powerful that not even other Ainur could endure the brightness. Literally Low 1-C light manipulation lol
"As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look;"
Edit: mention of more than one Eä:
"For they hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä."
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Experiment12 is working on a calc for Nùmenor. Tol Erressea could be calced, but the Valar already have the ability to control nigh all matter in the universe. That seems to be usable for lifting.
All the Valar are already at that level, but it is a good supporting feat.
I believe this is an old version of events, as Ithil/Moon is created by the Valar in the Published Silmarillion
Arda is just a planet, so it's not too notable. Especially since this is in a potential scenario where no Ainur or Eru is there to preserve it. Just 5-B
The Children refers to humans, elves, and dwarves. Not the Ainur.
We are already aware of a possible wider cosmology, as Tolkien considers all fictions to be "sub-creations" under God/Eru. There is a potentially infinite "multiverse", but it's not a conventional one. More akin to every individual story being considered to be its own thing.
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Yes, i meant it to be only a lifting feat.
Alright
I know, but does "formless chaos" refer only to "the outer space" or..?
I thought they didn't exist yet at that time?
Yeah, i know, but i didn't see anyone talking about multiple Eä's.
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