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Great. But as I was saying. I'm pretty convinced on Carcaroth and related characters by proxy, but not so big on Ancalagon.Continuing the scaling conversation here as requested
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Great. But as I was saying. I'm pretty convinced on Carcaroth and related characters by proxy, but not so big on Ancalagon.Continuing the scaling conversation here as requested
That's fair, although we don't currently have a page for Thorondor.That's fair enough. We should probably still have a high tier Thorondor, though, since he succeeded in permanently scarring Morgoth after the duel with Fingolfin.
Sounds good. Now we just need to agree on who goes into the latter grouping. I'll present my views in a summary post some time this week.So it looks like there's a couple groups.
"Silmaril" tier: Those who scale to a Silmaril-level energy output, which is sufficient to injure Morgoth. Includes the Carcharoth-Huan-Sauron scaling chain. This can also be support for the Greater Maiar.
"Greater Maiar" tier: Those Maiar that either have author statements of being especially powerful or other entities that obviously match them or the Valar somewhat in power. Such as Sauron, Eonwe, Arien, Osse and the top tier elves like Fingolfin, Feanor, Finrod, and maybe a handful of others like potentially the Istari and Galadriel.
Sounds good. Who else would be providing feedback?Sounds good. Now we just need to agree on who goes into the latter grouping. I'll present my views in a summary post some time this week.
You and Merchant both have your own views on the topic. I wouldn’t mind your own summaries or at least commentary on mine.Sounds good. Who else would be providing feedback?
Ah, most of my thoughts on your post are covered in my own summary. The Silmaril tier you came up with definitely helped out with justifying Sauron, and those who scale to him, to go in that tier.On second thought, I do have some more detailed input. I'm on vacation so I don't have my books with me for specific citations, but this ought to be enough for a conversation. This scaling only includes the stronger characters of the verse, since their profiles are the ones that have gone up and down and up and down on the wiki for the past six years or so.
I suppose that's a fair point. I'll need to look into it more before I give my final opinion, but that does mean we can have then scale to 7-A (be it possibly or solidly) without the Balrogs or Gandalf the Grey.We've mostly talked about a lot of these points, I agree with most but have certain different POVs ofc.
When it comes to Galadriel being lesser than Gandalf the Gray cause of the ring statement, I always assumed that was because Gandalf most likely would end up "shedding" his mortal form, I guess that's just headcanon but it makes sense. Another way of putting it is Gandalf most likely would be able to use his full potential Maia power with the One Ring removing said inhibitors.
Main reason why I think Galadriel>Glorfindel>Gandalf the Gray is cause of Balrog scaling.
Gandalf died against his Balrog whilst Glorfindel actually would have walked away fron the fight if the Balrog didn't grab his hair. Ignoring that, Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray seens to be the likeliest form of scaling.
Glorfindel then gets a boost that puts him bigh equal to the Maia in Valinor and while that sounds like a contradiction it can be justified by assuming it is referring to Olórin, not Gandalf the Gray.
Galadriel still being called the mightiest Eldar in ME despite a resurrected Glorfindel running around is why I put her above Gandalf the Gray + their respective Balrog fights.
Galadriel>Post resurrected Glorfindel>Pre Resurrected Glorfindel~Gandalf the Gray.
The only wrench to this scaling is Tolkien upgrading Balrogs power as time goes on, but I think Glorfindel fighting the Balrog most likely would have been kept intact since it seems something that Tolkien expanded upon with the ressurection bit rather than change it completely.
Haven't had too long to look at it, bu there is some substantial stuff.Can i ask what are the abilities you are planning to give maiar, valar and eru?
It's possible, but the evidence for no outweighs it. The chief evidence for it is the fact that the usage of concepts is like breathing for them, but that could be another way of showing their control over concepts.Do valar have abstract existence?
I'm wary of scaling them too high though, as they are "mighty", but they only scale to Sauron in his origin, before Melkor got him. We know Melkor gave his servants some of his power, and we even see Sauron do the same for the Witch-King.This is looking pretty good so far. I would say that most of the time "Greater Maiar" is a fan term used to distinguish those of the Maiar that have statements of being especially great or strong for their type, which the wizards' unrestricted forms certainly are, so I would still be for scaling their unrestricted forms.
Ikr. Shame none of the Fellowship scale to him from memory.Other than that, I agree. It would be nice to see Aragorn get that bump, too.
He does use a gigantic form several times, mostly when Arda was still a mess of lava and ocean.I remember from sillmarilion where Morgoth is so huge his head was above clounds. Cound be wrong though.
The issue is the Nazgul. We have a direct showing of Gandalf matching all 9 at night, while not even Aragorn + Glorfindel could match them at day (until they got to the river).My reasoning was the same as Merchant's, due to the Balrog scaling chain. Galadriel definitely > Glorfindel by statements, and Glorfindel > Gandalf the Grey by feats (unless we assume that Durin's Bane was for some reason stronger than Durin's Bane).
That's fair. I'll concede there.As far as the Wizards go, scaling to origin-form Sauron is still pretty solid. We don't know that Melkor made Sauron massively more powerful immediately, and he was already elite among Aule's supporters before his corruption.
I'll concede with "At Most", as Sauron might have been weaker prior to his joining Melkor.Edit: I feel that an "At most" or "possibly" rating for the Istari's true forms scaling to Sauron would also make sense, since there is some subjectivity here.
I understood the passage referring to Aragorn and Glorfindel not being able to withstand the Nine on horseback as simply saying that while on foot they wouldn't be able to protect Frodo from nine mounted and powerful opponents, not necessarily that they themselves wouldn't be able to win. That would eliminate the scaling problem there.The issue is the Nazgul. We have a direct showing of Gandalf matching all 9 at night, while not even Aragorn + Glorfindel could match them at day (until they got to the river).
Durin's Bane could be superior to a normal Balrog. The Balrog page is a generalisation, as we don't know how they individually varied. Gothmog for instance seems to be a "Greater Maia" (although a pathetically weak one for the group).
That's fair. I'll concede there.
I'll concede with "At Most", as Sauron might have been weaker prior to his joining Melkor.
No, he's seperate. It's unknown what he was. The movies had him as an orc, the LOTRO game had him as a wraith.Is gothmog from return of the king the same character from sillmarilion?
That's a fair reading. I think I'll concede for this point then. So Saruman, Glorfindel, and Galadriel all downscale to Olorin then, although below Gandalf the White.I understood the passage referring to Aragorn and Glorfindel not being able to withstand the Nine on horseback as simply saying that while on foot they wouldn't be able to protect Frodo from nine mounted and powerful opponents, not necessarily that they themselves wouldn't be able to win. That would eliminate the scaling problem there.
That's also fair, although survival could imply it to be stronger. We lack context for its flight, as it may have fought its way out and fled.While Durin's Bane could indeed be superior to a normal Balrog, it's just as likely that it's inferior. We don't have any in-text evidence stating its relative power level within the Balrog hierarchy, so placing it as any different from the one that fought Glorfindel is headcanon. If anything, it's more probable that it's weaker since it fled the War of Wrath and hid for millennia.
Wunderbar.An "At Most" key works for me.
I'm unaware of any good arguments for it. You could probably get something from Eru's relation to Sub-Creators, but I've found nothing suggesting a state qualitative superiority.Are there any arguments for 6-D lotr?
I see.I'm unaware of any good arguments for it. You could probably get something from Eru's relation to Sub-Creators, but I've found nothing suggesting a state qualitative superiority.
Being omnipotent compared to someone doesn't make you an entire dimensional tier higher.
The Ainur don't really have any good regeneration feats. However, they can discard and remake a body around their spirit, so they get some form of pseudo-regen from that.I see.
On unrelated note, Morgoth getting decapitated and regenerating is from dagor dagorath, right?
If so, does he have any other regeneration feats?
Sauron really should not scale in the Third Age. He was critically weakened during that stage, lacking most of his power.Osse should definitely get solid scaling. I'm on the side of Sauron getting solid scaling as well in his First and Second Age keys, (due to a combination of statements and the Carcharoth scaling chain) with a "possibly" rating for his Third Age since it was never quantified how much weaker he'd become.
I suppose, but it's not like we have much to work off. I suppose he should be above any individual member of the White Council, as Gandalf the Grey thought all of them were needed to defeat the Necromancer.It may be worth considering to have a Necromancer key as well, since that was by far the weakest of his forms.
Arien I agree, but Tilion unfortunately lacks any statements or feats. He only fights unquantifiable evil spirits, which are likely below the Balrogs, since they were considered "dreadful" and powerful for Morgoth's army.I wouldn't be against "possibly" or "likely" for Arien and Tilion, since the Valar wouldn't have entrusted them with the Sun and Moon unless they legitimately believed they were qualified and powerful enough to protect their respective charges.
Well if we agree on Sauron as solid, I agree here.Anybody that scales to the Silmarils should get solid tiers (Carcharoth, Huan). Additional solid tier scaling should go to Fingolfin for fighting Morgoth, Feanor for being neck-and-neck with Fingolfin depending on statements, and Finrod for dueling Sauron and actually doing fairly well.
Ungoliant scales to Morgoth. So does Thorondor.
Almost all agree here. Although I maintain that the Istari should only be "At Most" due to our lack of knowledge on Sauron in his origin.POSSIBLY:
- Gothmog should have "possibly" since he killed a weakened and injured Feanor.
- Ecthelion scales to Gothmog.
- The unrestricted forms of the Istari downscale from Sauron's First Age pre-corruption, which shouldn't be significantly different from his post-corruption
I don't know, but Sauron, of he regained the One Ring, would definetly be weaker than his Second Age self, but it's unknown by how much.
- Maybe Tom Bombadil? Maybe? We know that he'd at least put up a good fight against a hypothetical Third Age Sauron with the Ring, which we never saw happen but we know would be far stronger than the Sauron that's more powerful than Galadriel or Gandalf the White.
Melian I suppose can scale based on her fending off Ungoliant (although a weakened one) and being chief of the Istari.
- Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody.
I think we should be all good really. We should probably see Merchant's thoughts before we push the scaling into the revision thread. It's a massive change afterall, since we're finally covering the Elves as well (and Aragorn).Agreed. Melian should scale, as well as Luthien (at least via hax) and Huan scales physically to amped Carcharoth.
What are we missing?
Abilities are heavily outdated. They need massive revisions.While looking at Morgoth's profile, I noticed he has Death Manipulation via: "Kept Húrin alive throughout all his years of imprisonment"
That sounds more like age manipulation than anything imo