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Let's the chaos begin! Kamijou Touma vs Iihiko

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I am just saying what would happen if he indeed was counted as Supernatural, nothing more.
And I'm not sure about that...? Shiranui doesn't have super muscles, so it's obvious that Iihiko is doing something unnatural when he possess her and she gets even stronger than Iihiko in his old body.

Anyway, I was just clearing stuff up. I don't care much for this match up.
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well she does have super muscle, she is city block and like everyone in medaka has super human strength
 
Malox1696 said:
range too is considered stomp, same reason why sword vs sniper rifle is a stomp (as range is just like speed in a sense9
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Iihiko might pick up a stick to fight Touma with, which would give Touma a chance to touch him
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
This is Touma's win con
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no he was fine even after defeat(literally next chap), that really seems his body

Iapitus The Impaler said:
Iihiko might pick up a stick to fight Touma with, which would give Touma a chance to touch him
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Why him picking up a stick would let touma touch him ? Especially considering the range and both want to beat each other
 
@Malox Except she's still not even Medaka Level but the moment Iihiko possess her, her body can manhandle Medaka easily and it's way stronger than his old body, which Medaka had to use her strongest attack to date to defeat. That's not natural.

Also, just a reminder that kinetic energy caused by supernatural reasons gets poofed when Touma touches it. It's the whole reason he could punch that Golem that would have destroyed his arm if not by Imagine Breaker, or negating Othinus's arrows that could pierce through the planet, or even punching Gungnir with only 2 broken fingers after it was thrown at him.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
@Malox Except she's still not even Medaka Level but the moment Iihiko possess her, her body can manhandle Medaka easily and it's way stronger than his old body, which Medaka had to use her strongest attack to date to defeat. That's not natural.
Also, just a reminder that kinetic energy caused by supernatural reasons gets poofed when Touma touches it. It's the whole reason he could punch that Golem that would have destroyed his arm if not by Imagine Breaker, or negating Othinus's bows that could pierce through the planet, or even punching Gungnir with only 2 broken fingers after it was thrown at him.
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that depends, accel trowing thing are not negated and anything saints do while not using magic does not get negated,etc, it depends on if the thing is constantly supernaturally maintained all the things u mentioned are supernatural things

and as i already said most medaka characters are super human already and her profile already mentions it (fought kumogawa) 8 b is already more than enough
 
If he himself is supernatural, then it already counts. Shiranui's muscles certainly aren't the thing letting her wreck everyone else when Iihiko possess her.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
If he himself is supernatural, then it already counts. Shiranui's muscles certainly aren't the thing letting her wreck everyone else when Iihiko possess her.
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he used his ability to wreck everything


and 8b is already enough

btw this does not really matter has touma has no chance of hitting him considering the range and martial artist advantage (touma can't block if he just trows thing at him with super strength )
 
Except it was... shiranui's body that isn't that strong.

I fail to see the not supernatural aspect of him possessing someone, giving them horns and goddamn claws, making them way way stronger than their body has shown at any point to be, and saying that it's just "muscles".

So by this, Iihiko would have changed Shiranui's own muscles, which is pretty damn supernatural. And considering Iihiko had been passed down all the years through the Shiranui village, even the Iihiko we see its not his original body, so this also applies here.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Except it was... shiranui's body that isn't that strong.
I fail to see the not supernatural aspect of him possessing someone, giving them horns and goddamn claws, making them way way stronger than their body has shown at any point to be, and saying that it's just "muscles".

So by this, Iihiko would have changed Shiranui's own muscles, which is pretty damn supernatural. And considering Iihiko had been passed down all the years through the Shiranui village, even the Iihiko we see its not his original body, so this also applies here.
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him possessing her is obv supernatural but remember his ability is like dura negation and medaka is still 8 b dura, she was already 8b by fighting kumogawa there was no need to boost her in any way in the first place

here he is using his body, not possessing anyone (btw his current body should be his simply cause when defeated he was back in it, nobody popped out when he possessed others or was defeat https://manganelo.com/chapter/lfy4492263564564/chapter_184)

edit: int he first place he mentions the power gap between his new body and the old so it does not seem to have boosted it
 
Except Iihiko displays a very clear physical feat by destroying the entire hospital building and talks about how this fresh new body is incredible, since he had already been abusing his old one for 100 years. He point blank mentions this and the difference in power.

And no, he has been passed down the Shiranui village for 5000 years and there's no way his body is around. Even if you somehow decided to argue that doesn't imply or prove his original body is dead he, again, says he had been abusing his old body for 100 years. His old body is not his real body, this much is crystal clear.

... He mentions how Shiranui's body is fresh while he had abused his previous one for a century, and his display of destructive power is more than anything he did before. How this doesn't imply that his power was boosted is beyond me and you are getting confused.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Except Iihiko displays a very clear physical feat by destroying the entire hospital building and talks about how this fresh new body is incredible, since he had already been abusing his old one for 100 years. He point blank mentions this and the difference in power.
And no, he has been passed down the Shiranui village for 5000 years and there's no way his body is around. Even if you somehow decided to argue that doesn't imply or prove his original body is dead he, again, says he had been abusing his old body for 100 years. His old body is not his real body, this much is crystal clear.

... He mentions how Shiranui's body is fresh while he had abused his previous one for a century, and his display of destructive power is more than anything he did before. How this doesn't imply that his power was boosted is beyond me and you are getting confused.
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again she is already city block she fought kumogawa before this, and correction he actually says the body is better than one he had before, but he didn't boost it or anything in fact he has trouble controlling it https://manganelo.com/chapter/lfy4492263564564/chapter_181

btw again it seems his body is his body and there is no other person inside after gettign defeat he simply woke up again later (he didn't disappear or anything)
 
Except Iihiko in his old body manhandled everyone including Misogi and Medaka, the same Misogi that wasn't really being serious with Shiranui, and then manhandled her harder than previous Iihiko did when he gained her body. You ignoring that she's obviously way stronger than she was ever shown to be and the whole scene is framed to show Iihiko is stronger than he was before, doesn't mean these things never happened. Not to mention he also mentions "getting used to this new body" that is very different from his previous one plus the power difference. This only implies even more that he's stronger.

He possessed it again...? His body doesn't need to become smoke the moment he moves away from it you know? Not to mention he's still only used that body for 100 years, while being passed down the Shiranui village for 5000 years. There's no way you can explain this, so the body he leaves was just the latest body he was inhabiting or everything he says and the purpose of the Shiranui village suddenly make no sense and stop mattering.
 
OK rereading again i have got it, he is like a title not a soul or anything, if it passes u get his power and "personality", but that does not change the fact the body is real and it's just passing the power, pretty much the new one takes the place as they are double made for keeping the legend alive as they already have the parameters installed, do u even call it possession in this case ? it's more similar to copy pasting an hard drive to another, it's not really possessing once the other personality is removed, that's why he was still alive after passing the legend early and called himself an echo, i don't believe IB can negate that actually once he fully overwrites as it's already normalized at that point (example aleister possibilities and coronzon avatar)

considering his ability it's obvs he manhandled everyone, and again he never showed destructive feat beyond 8b, and we know she is at least 8b so again there is no problem here about enhancing her strength not that it would matter anyway as again he has enough strength already (8b vs 9c)

btw returning on topic it does not really matter, if he just throws something it's not gonna get negated(only the break anything part gets negated the object and the force beyond don't)
 
Like I said already, if we decide to think Touma can dispel Iihiko with a touch, then he can combat only needs to intercept his attacks with his arm which makes it more fair.

Otherwise, Iihiko can just as easily hit him with wind attacks that also have irreversible destruction and that's it, which is not fair at all.
 
Has touma ever nulled ke just because the person creating the force was supernatural.

Afaik every case of him nulling something has been due to the attack or object having supernatural properties behind it.

Irreversible destruction isn't even supernatural
 
He negated Gabriel, an Angel. The simple fact that it was an Angel made it supernatural and thus IB negated its existence.

Also, Invisible Thing is like, 5-B to High 1-C in dura. Iihiko can't harm it.
 
There's Touma negating Othinus Gungnir after it was fired at him, there's him smacking the Golem's fist which would normally break his arm and the only reason it got hurt was smacking rock at full power, there's him diverting one of Othinus Arrows with their absurd power upwards so he can get close to Othinus and undue the fairy spell eating her up, there's him not getting hurt by Mikoto's ironsaw sword made from iron she collects, there's him smacking past Accelerator's hands even after they got boosted with kinetic energy through vector control or when he throws anything...

Yes, I do believe we have ample examples. Iihiko's body before Shiranui is not even his actual body, as he himself says he's been abusing it for 100 years. Just because he's inhabiting a physical body, I don't think the force he exerts becomes any less superhuman. Especially in the case of someone like Shiranui where she never displayed any power on the level of Iihiko using her body.

And are you really gonna tell me styles, minuses and abnormalities or what Iihiko does isn't supernatural? You are kidding right? I would understand if you meant Munakata's super desire to kill or the hyper reflexes or Koga's superhuman abilities made through 'normal' science, but Oudo's weighted words and other more absurd abnormalities aren't "normal" at all.
 
Gungnir is supernatural which is why its ke was nulled same thing with the golem. Othinus' arrows are also supernatural. The sword is made with supernatural means. They were boosted with ke from vector control which is what he nulled.

He has only nulled the ke of things that are supernatural in nature or come from a supernatural power not things that come from someone supernatural but use natural means
 
My point is that doesn't matter. He never nulled an attack just because the user is supernatural he's only nulled attacks that are supernatural on their own.

Irreversible destruction is a style which is language so even if you want to say the ke would be nulled the style wouldn't
 
... if the source of your strength is supernatural, what is the actual difference? Do you think a person gets to punch Touma with supernatural 6-B for example just because they aren't an inanimate bullet? What kind of logic is that?

And the styles ARE SUPERNATURAL. Or are you gonna say sealing people, destroying attacks so they are ineffective, multiplying into 800 exact copies and pulling down the moon after you die isn't supernatural because "language"? That is absurd.
 
No they dont get to punch with a supernatural 6-B but if they are 6-B with a natural attack and just supernatural in their own nature they can still hit with the 6-B attack because the attack itself is 6-B through natural means.

Those may be supernatural effects but the method isn't really supernatural. Irreversible destruction itself isn't really supernatural either the only part of it that can be considered supernatural is the part where the wounds can't heal if Iihiko inflicts them. That could be nulled potentially but it also negates durability which isn't really supernatural. and yes I am going to say styles aren't supernatural because they are language.
 
Which would be good and all... if this was living Iihiko.

Which it isn't. There's no natural 7-B strength because he's possessing people. And if we decide to say it is indeed natural, then Touma can't affect anything and dies from the slightest tap, so we still end up with a mismatch.
 
The attack is naturally that strong though. He is supernatural yes but the strength of the attack isn't.

Let's just say for a second that he could null the ke. He is not reacting the the rubberband if even Ajimu couldn't. Speed equal keeps projectiles as a higher speed if they were originally faster than the combatants. If he used air he could null the ke of it if it touched his right arm but if it touches anywhere else he gets obliterated.
 
I would love to hear where it has ever been said that the projectiles are kept relatively higher if they were. There was a thread about that long ago, but nothing conclusive was ever reached. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much "do you really think he couldn't evade that at this range with speed equal?", it's not even mentioned anywhere like battle assumptions.

Also, again, realize what you are saying. The only way this thread isn't a stomp or a mismatch is if Imagine Breaker could dispel Iihiko himself. And imagine breaker was actually destroyed with pure strength... by Othinus, who WASN'T dispelled touching it. But he also destroyed something that used pure strength... The stone Golem, which WAS dispelled when he touched it.

Do you see the contradiction in saying Iihiko doesn't get KE nulled if the attack touches IB but gets dispelled if he touches IB? Also, Iihiko also uses Irreversible Destruction with Zenkichi's glasses... they don't even budge. Normal glasses that even a normal person could break. Not supernatural my ass.
 
Othinus was a Magic God at that point already. Magic Gods and comparable beings are beyond IB... Which is contradicted when it negated Gungnir's High 1-C attack, both its reality destroying effects and the KE.

Imagine Breaker and Invisible Thing have negated supernatural existences too.
 
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