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That's it
Ikki FRA
Ikki FRA
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Let's get this over with. Yujiro Hanma vs Ikki Kurogane.
- Thread starter XSOULOFCINDERX
- Start date
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8n-verse there is the simple fact that it's not a linear stat amp, outside of it is just pulling out speed ratings out of nowhere through wonky reasoning.
Regardless, if you want to upgrade his speed rating, that is to be done on a crt
Regardless, if you want to upgrade his speed rating, that is to be done on a crt
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Because aim dodging is a thing. You're not faster than a thrown baseball, but you can easily catch it. Because you see it coming from far away.KGiffoni said:
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I see. Anyways, this is a very good amp out of Yujiro's many other speed amps. There's his "near-death" speed amp, Mach Punch also blitzes people who blitz you, Cockroach Tackle also blitzes people who blitz you, and probably some others that i'm forgetting as of rnFirephoenixearl said:
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So, the TLDR of my points were as follows:
Sangan (Doppo goes from being blitzed to casually knocking away all of his opponent's attacks)
Demon Back (4x to all stats)
Apnea Rush (so fast, someone of a comparable speed to user could only block, couldn't counter or evade, and was only able to stop it by tanking several unguarded punches and punching through the attack)
Cockroach Tackle (it ain't magical 0 accel, but an accel boost is better than no boost at all)
Flying Swallow Barrage (someone who was at least Superhuman, possibly Subsonic+ utterly blitzed someone who was Supersonic+)
Hand Pocket (outspeeds 0.5 and gives a Supersonic+ a Hypersonic+ speed amp)
Hitless Blow (a Hypersonic+ outsped a faster Hypersonic+ despite only starting the move while his naturally faster enemy was less than an inch away from decking him)
Jab ( Baki completely blitzes someone with speed comparable to Yujiro, and the only way he could stop the attack is by using precog telepathy to stop the punch before it is thrown)
Leaning Forward Stance (Outspeed the tail of a T-Rex, which is ~ as fast as the Hitless Blow)
Mach Punch (allowed a naturally slightly faster character to blitz a naturally slower character, but both were Supersonic+)
Quadruple Median Line Strike (allowed one character of comparable speed to the other to hit him 4 times before he could react)
Triceratops Fist (minor speed amp. Unqualified, as every use has been clashed, not dodged)
Not all moves can be used at once, but several of the moves could be stringed together for major amps.
Possible combos:
Sangan+DB+ Cockroach Tackle from a Forward Leaning Stance into an Apnea Rush of Hans Pockets and Jabs
Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike pattern
Ikki dodging a combo like this with no amps= major "Press X to doubt" vibes
Sangan (Doppo goes from being blitzed to casually knocking away all of his opponent's attacks)
Demon Back (4x to all stats)
Apnea Rush (so fast, someone of a comparable speed to user could only block, couldn't counter or evade, and was only able to stop it by tanking several unguarded punches and punching through the attack)
Cockroach Tackle (it ain't magical 0 accel, but an accel boost is better than no boost at all)
Flying Swallow Barrage (someone who was at least Superhuman, possibly Subsonic+ utterly blitzed someone who was Supersonic+)
Hand Pocket (outspeeds 0.5 and gives a Supersonic+ a Hypersonic+ speed amp)
Hitless Blow (a Hypersonic+ outsped a faster Hypersonic+ despite only starting the move while his naturally faster enemy was less than an inch away from decking him)
Jab ( Baki completely blitzes someone with speed comparable to Yujiro, and the only way he could stop the attack is by using precog telepathy to stop the punch before it is thrown)
Leaning Forward Stance (Outspeed the tail of a T-Rex, which is ~ as fast as the Hitless Blow)
Mach Punch (allowed a naturally slightly faster character to blitz a naturally slower character, but both were Supersonic+)
Quadruple Median Line Strike (allowed one character of comparable speed to the other to hit him 4 times before he could react)
Triceratops Fist (minor speed amp. Unqualified, as every use has been clashed, not dodged)
Not all moves can be used at once, but several of the moves could be stringed together for major amps.
Possible combos:
Sangan+DB+ Cockroach Tackle from a Forward Leaning Stance into an Apnea Rush of Hans Pockets and Jabs
Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike pattern
Ikki dodging a combo like this with no amps= major "Press X to doubt" vibes
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Oh thank God
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I'm like 99% sure that Cockroach Tackle isn't a speed amp, just allows the user to go top speed from the get go. Even then it's not a consistent and it can't be upheld for very long.
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@Baki
I'll answer those later, but many of those aren't valid, because of the fact that you're using calced speeds. Multipliers off of scaling are not taken into account otherwise we would have stuff like Stella having over 100 mil times boosts via scaling, which just isn't happening.
I'll answer those later, but many of those aren't valid, because of the fact that you're using calced speeds. Multipliers off of scaling are not taken into account otherwise we would have stuff like Stella having over 100 mil times boosts via scaling, which just isn't happening.
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There are still many multiple blitzes of characters clear shown to be of comparable speeds, if not one clearly being faster than the other. But I'll be here waitin for a responseFirephoenixearl said:
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Fire btw I'm down to debate Sasaki vs Ikki more at some point tomorrow or the day after since I've gathered a lot more detailed feats.
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If it's a speed amp it's a pretty shitty speed amp considering the user can't change directions with it. Also saying Baki blitzed Yujiro is completely false whenever he could prepare himself and block in time.
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Sure xD. But he has far too little screentime to dethrone ikki. Also you mean a skill debate or an actual fight?The Prince of Counters said:
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Skill debate fam.
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You guys lack power to go into skill debate with this guy
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Not being able to change direction doesn't really make it shitty. The purpose is to be fast, not to be able to shoot around the arena and feint a bunch of timesThe Prince of Counters said:
Yujiro'a being able to react after seeing once is clearly due to him knowing about the move and anticipating it. He even says something along the lines of "You didn't expect that to work twice in a row, did you? You can't just rely on one trick over and over"
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2. No, i meant average as in when being used by the average martial artist of that martial art. It's obvious that very few, if any, martial arts are useless when used by a true master, both in real life and in the Bakiverse.Firephoenixearl said:
3. I've asked on the Grappler Baki Discussion Thread since i don't remember all the 800+ chapters of Grappler Baki perfectly. Anyways, it's said in Goki Shibukawa's profile that he has Chi Manip via Aiki so believe it.
It can reflect grapples. Shibukawa did it in his fight against Jack, watch it. As for blade attacks, the sword isn't 100% edge y'know. Actually, most of it isn't, and Yujiro's not exactly an idiot anyways.
4. 30:30 " Isn't it funny? Death came to pick him just in time... " - Yujiro
" As a result of my actions, i avoided an unstoppable and destructive punch. By faking my death, i stopped the fist that would've killed me for real. " - Kaku Kaioh himself
The logic between piercing and cutting is the same: good force distributed through a very small area, maximizing damage. Piercing with a fencing sword is logically superior to cutting someone with a katana thanks to the smaller area, however it's not noticeably better to make up for Yujiro's mastery over Xiao Lee summed with his naturally superior durability.
8. Instinctive Reaction, 6th sense.
9. I agree with the first point. Anyways, Ikki only uses Rasetsu if completly cornered, and i think Yujiro can defeat Ikki before that happens since he one-shots.
10. Yeah, but he only did that in that specific situation. In an actual battle, he uses a good variety of martial arts, specially when fighting someone who he doesn't curbstomp in everything, such as when he fought Baki at the end of SOO.
11. I'm not North American, i searched "Central Park" in Google Images and a good majority of them show relatively open fields.
Alright.
While i do agree Ikki would eventually catch on to it, not only does it make him vulnerable, but...
a) He has to get very vulnerable (against someone who one-shots) to make it; b) He has to do it for every attack if he wants them to do anything; c) And even then they wouldn't do much thanks to Yujiro's superior durability.
That's because he's always in control in his verse, the only person who ever somewhat got comparable to Yujiro both physically and mentally was end of SOO Baki and even then, just barely. It's even revealed that, before his fight with Baki, Yujiro is shown to be a, deep inside, depressed person thanks to the fact nobody is truly comparable to him.
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Could you please retract your vote until we end our arguments? I think it's more fair that way.
No, you two have argued for over 100 posts and I've repeatedly found Fire and risci's points to be better, no offense.
If I waited until you were done, we would be here by 500
No, you two have argued for over 100 posts and I've repeatedly found Fire and risci's points to be better, no offense.
If I waited until you were done, we would be here by 500
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Schnee just wanted to take this off his chest lol.
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Btw i will respond to both KG and Baki tomorrow, since im lazy af now.
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@Baki I'll only cover the possible combinations:
Sangan + DB + Cockroach Tackle from Forward stance to Apnea rush or Hand Pocket.
Sangan = Doesn't contribute to movement speed.
DB = 4x i guess. Iirc that's just cus of scaling, but it's not like 3x or 4x would really make a difference so im fine with it, though what was the proof that it doesn't boost only strength?
Cockroach Tackle = Just speeds up acceleration, doesn't even contribute when your opponent is someone who doesn't accel at all.
Forward Stance = This is barely an upgrade at all. If i take a stance before running i can also run a tad faster. It doesn't mean the upgrade is anything worth noting though.
Apnea Rush = Not really faster, if your classmate punches you, it doesn't mean you're capable of dodging it without expecting it first. Try it. And even if you do wanna say faster, it is so little, it's not even useful.
Hand Pocket = Scaling speed multiplier, it's not really anything quantifiable.
So at best even being lenient on all of these it is still no more than a 10x amp, which ikki deals with casually.
Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike patter
Sangan and DB stated above.
Triceratop Fist = I mean you say yourself it's not even a speed amp.
Flying Swallow Barrage = Again scaling speeds, unquantifiable.
Hitless Blows = Not a speed amp, pure whipping motion, it's faster than a regular punch, but nothing special. It is barely a speed amp but the user's arm is destroyed after this one so...
Quadruple Meridian Line Strike = This is plain wrong. If you're refering to Katsumi vs Dorian, Katsumi was immensly faster. Hell, from being hanged, Katsumi turned around with a kick and kicked his face, and Dorian couldn't even block against it. If you're interpreting everything like this i'll start to doubt the validity of each of these "speed amps".
And even this while it may be better than the first one, it still isn't better than the 10 x 10 feat.
Sangan + DB + Cockroach Tackle from Forward stance to Apnea rush or Hand Pocket.
Sangan = Doesn't contribute to movement speed.
DB = 4x i guess. Iirc that's just cus of scaling, but it's not like 3x or 4x would really make a difference so im fine with it, though what was the proof that it doesn't boost only strength?
Cockroach Tackle = Just speeds up acceleration, doesn't even contribute when your opponent is someone who doesn't accel at all.
Forward Stance = This is barely an upgrade at all. If i take a stance before running i can also run a tad faster. It doesn't mean the upgrade is anything worth noting though.
Apnea Rush = Not really faster, if your classmate punches you, it doesn't mean you're capable of dodging it without expecting it first. Try it. And even if you do wanna say faster, it is so little, it's not even useful.
Hand Pocket = Scaling speed multiplier, it's not really anything quantifiable.
So at best even being lenient on all of these it is still no more than a 10x amp, which ikki deals with casually.
Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike patter
Sangan and DB stated above.
Triceratop Fist = I mean you say yourself it's not even a speed amp.
Flying Swallow Barrage = Again scaling speeds, unquantifiable.
Hitless Blows = Not a speed amp, pure whipping motion, it's faster than a regular punch, but nothing special. It is barely a speed amp but the user's arm is destroyed after this one so...
Quadruple Meridian Line Strike = This is plain wrong. If you're refering to Katsumi vs Dorian, Katsumi was immensly faster. Hell, from being hanged, Katsumi turned around with a kick and kicked his face, and Dorian couldn't even block against it. If you're interpreting everything like this i'll start to doubt the validity of each of these "speed amps".
And even this while it may be better than the first one, it still isn't better than the 10 x 10 feat.
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@Kg
2. Argue only those you have feats for, don't get into generalizations. That's the last i'll say on this point.
3. Ok when you find the scan link it. About reflecting grapples, no, it is the very thing that it can't reflect. He can turn around and do wonky shit to mess with your wrist not reflect it. There is a reason Jack slowly approached his hand trying to grab him, because he knew Gouki would attack there because he knew Aiki couldn't do anything about it. 6:54.
4. Because even normal Yujiro punches were slamming him against the wall where he couldn't reflect them. Normal punches almost killed him, now what would happen if Yujiro had used his strongest punch with the same effect of not being able to reflect it?
Im not saying "no level of AP can get past it", but Yujiro's level of AP only got past it because of the walls around.
Not the point, the idea is where he is attacked. Slashing was a bisect attempt, a VERY wrong move against someone who would just flip to avoid the damage. Piercing on the other hand, flip all you want you'll never deflect a blow to the center of gravity (the place there where the flippling happens). As for the fencing guy, it was mostly a feat of speed, as Baki willingly turned around to counter attack, doesn't in anyway scale to Xiao Lee.
8. Nope, not enough. Insinctive reaction is still when you can at least perceive something. At least until proven wrong.
9. Not really, it has been used as an oppening move, 3 times. And as a last resort twice (even though the 2nd time he had planned to use it from the start he just needed an opening). And ikki has actual precog on top of analytical prediction, he knows exactly when to use it. He's not reluctant to use it, he's just wary of using it as he can't waste it. Anyway i don't want to argue this yet.
10. Yujiro used these techniques against baki EoS?
11. Im not sure how this qualifies as "an open field". There are trees and other obstacles everywhere. And beyond that there are tons of buildings and other things like that.
a)Very vulnerable, not really.
b) Not really
c) Fair enough, but this is just more reason on why Yujiro wouldn't use Xiao Lee.
And he'll somehow know right away that Ikki is a dude more skilled than him and has a bunch of other shit? Because 1 Madoka would severely handicap Yujiro. The 2nd will be end of the fight.
2. Argue only those you have feats for, don't get into generalizations. That's the last i'll say on this point.
3. Ok when you find the scan link it. About reflecting grapples, no, it is the very thing that it can't reflect. He can turn around and do wonky shit to mess with your wrist not reflect it. There is a reason Jack slowly approached his hand trying to grab him, because he knew Gouki would attack there because he knew Aiki couldn't do anything about it. 6:54.
4. Because even normal Yujiro punches were slamming him against the wall where he couldn't reflect them. Normal punches almost killed him, now what would happen if Yujiro had used his strongest punch with the same effect of not being able to reflect it?
Im not saying "no level of AP can get past it", but Yujiro's level of AP only got past it because of the walls around.
Not the point, the idea is where he is attacked. Slashing was a bisect attempt, a VERY wrong move against someone who would just flip to avoid the damage. Piercing on the other hand, flip all you want you'll never deflect a blow to the center of gravity (the place there where the flippling happens). As for the fencing guy, it was mostly a feat of speed, as Baki willingly turned around to counter attack, doesn't in anyway scale to Xiao Lee.
8. Nope, not enough. Insinctive reaction is still when you can at least perceive something. At least until proven wrong.
9. Not really, it has been used as an oppening move, 3 times. And as a last resort twice (even though the 2nd time he had planned to use it from the start he just needed an opening). And ikki has actual precog on top of analytical prediction, he knows exactly when to use it. He's not reluctant to use it, he's just wary of using it as he can't waste it. Anyway i don't want to argue this yet.
10. Yujiro used these techniques against baki EoS?
11. Im not sure how this qualifies as "an open field". There are trees and other obstacles everywhere. And beyond that there are tons of buildings and other things like that.
a)Very vulnerable, not really.
b) Not really
c) Fair enough, but this is just more reason on why Yujiro wouldn't use Xiao Lee.
And he'll somehow know right away that Ikki is a dude more skilled than him and has a bunch of other shit? Because 1 Madoka would severely handicap Yujiro. The 2nd will be end of the fight.
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To address each point:
Sorry, in the original post that got eaten, I outlined that the purpose of Sangan was to help Yujiro keep up with any counters or evades Ikki attempts
DB on the site is accepted as a flat boost (it's probably because of fights like Yujiro vs Baki and Yujiro vs Doppo, but I don't know for sure)
Okay, sure, but a move with fast acceleration is objectively better than a move with slower acceleration in terms of speed, regardless of the opponent. If Ikki can deal with 0 accel, that's fine, but he can deal with slow accel better than fast accel, even if he can casually deal with both
Instead of trying to apply real life logic, look at the example of which it's used: it allows Pickle to outsped Dinosaurs like the T-Rex tail that he is either in the same speed tier or considerably slower (depending on whether or not he needs to transform, as it's implied in his fight with Baki that he's only need to transform to kill a T-Rex once)
Apnea Rush allowed one person of a similar speed to another to completely blitz. Without tanking punches, Hanayama literally couldn't do anything except block. That's a far cry from "not even useful"
Again, Oliva should be insanely faster with being able to keep up with Baki and Yujiro, and someone comparable to mid NGB characters could tag him even when he was actually trying, not exactly unquantifiable
Considering all the blitzes amongst people with similar or faster speeds, I seriously doubt that
Right, except that's not what I said: I said it was a minor speed amp. His AP amp is said to come from his speed amp (the amount of speed he has allows him to hit as hard as he does)
Seems pretty quantifiable to me, someone this site would list as, at most, Subsonic+ blitzed someone this site has listed as Supersonic+
It can't not be a speed amp and barely be a speed amp, but it is a speed amp, as Katsumi's only means of hurting Pickle and outspending him. And about it's toll, that doesn't apply to Yujiro, as it is specifically outlined that the damage comes from breaking the sound barrier with your fist (one character thought the damage came from hittting Pickle's hard muscles, but it was explained that it was the sound barrier). Yujiro causally does this twice in his fight with Baki with no backlash
No, Katsumi wasn't "immensely faster", they both scale to NGB Retsu. Katsumi may have been faster, but four hits before Dorian even reacted is more than "a little faster", but you're free to doubt as you please
Still highly doubt that with the level of blitzing going on here
Sorry, in the original post that got eaten, I outlined that the purpose of Sangan was to help Yujiro keep up with any counters or evades Ikki attempts
DB on the site is accepted as a flat boost (it's probably because of fights like Yujiro vs Baki and Yujiro vs Doppo, but I don't know for sure)
Okay, sure, but a move with fast acceleration is objectively better than a move with slower acceleration in terms of speed, regardless of the opponent. If Ikki can deal with 0 accel, that's fine, but he can deal with slow accel better than fast accel, even if he can casually deal with both
Instead of trying to apply real life logic, look at the example of which it's used: it allows Pickle to outsped Dinosaurs like the T-Rex tail that he is either in the same speed tier or considerably slower (depending on whether or not he needs to transform, as it's implied in his fight with Baki that he's only need to transform to kill a T-Rex once)
Apnea Rush allowed one person of a similar speed to another to completely blitz. Without tanking punches, Hanayama literally couldn't do anything except block. That's a far cry from "not even useful"
Again, Oliva should be insanely faster with being able to keep up with Baki and Yujiro, and someone comparable to mid NGB characters could tag him even when he was actually trying, not exactly unquantifiable
Considering all the blitzes amongst people with similar or faster speeds, I seriously doubt that
Right, except that's not what I said: I said it was a minor speed amp. His AP amp is said to come from his speed amp (the amount of speed he has allows him to hit as hard as he does)
Seems pretty quantifiable to me, someone this site would list as, at most, Subsonic+ blitzed someone this site has listed as Supersonic+
It can't not be a speed amp and barely be a speed amp, but it is a speed amp, as Katsumi's only means of hurting Pickle and outspending him. And about it's toll, that doesn't apply to Yujiro, as it is specifically outlined that the damage comes from breaking the sound barrier with your fist (one character thought the damage came from hittting Pickle's hard muscles, but it was explained that it was the sound barrier). Yujiro causally does this twice in his fight with Baki with no backlash
No, Katsumi wasn't "immensely faster", they both scale to NGB Retsu. Katsumi may have been faster, but four hits before Dorian even reacted is more than "a little faster", but you're free to doubt as you please
Still highly doubt that with the level of blitzing going on here
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It doesn't help evading, just processing.
Yes but if it has no proof of amping speed, it's not a "flat boost" and being treated like that is a mistake.
Ok but it doesn't matter. It's like saying "It's harder to deal with 1000m/s than it is to deal with 10m/s when the opponent can deal with FTL". It harder sure but it doesn't matter because he casually deals with much beyond, making this useless/gets countered.
Killing a T-Rex doesn't need speed though, it needs AP. As for the rest as i said, it's not a speed amp, it's minor at most unless stated to be greater and it's not a speed amp in the literal sense it just allows a faster acceleration than normal starts.
Ok that's false. First of all Speck is WAY faster than Hanayama. I don't know what speed feat you got where Hanyama actually kept up with him, but no. Second of all, even narration says it's not a speed amp. It's purely attacking without taking breaks, so there is no time for a counter attack, it's not fast, it's just relentless, them being fast is just because Speck is faster than Hanayama.
Excuse me where did Oliva actually kept up with Baki and Yujiro in speed? His whole shtick is being a tank, pure power and defenses, not a speedster.
All of those were scaled speeds, not actual speeds. There is a reason they aren't used for asigning multipliers.
The wiki treats this as an AP amp, so why is this a speed amp at all?
Wait i just checked, are you REALLY counting Jack standing there and tanking 20 punches as "blitz"? 1:07 This is not a blitz. Jack was just toying with him, hell Jack even bit him and he didn't even realize it. Everytime that dude landed a hit on Jack it was because Jack was reluctant to even block or dodge. You see him just standing there looking at him as he's getting punched.
Fair enough on the hand destruction and "the strength of the attack is breaking the sound barrier"....by Supersonic to Hypersonic guys.... And again a normal fast attack is not a stat amp, it's just a fast attack. Otherwise i have stat amp via finger flicking which allows my finger to move faster. It's the same concept but done with the arm.
Dorian got 1 shot by Retsu, idk how you scale them in speed, in a literal 1 attack fight where Retsu borderline stomped. Katsumi proved to be faster tha Dorian in that very same fight when he made a full rotating motion while being hanged with his kick extended and managed to land it on Dorian where as the latter hadn't even been able to put up his guard at all. And "before he even put up his guard" is completely false, Dorian was recovering from getting kicked in the nose, it was made painfully clear that he was not even looking at Katsumi. So yeah 4 attacks when someone is still recovering are not speed amps.
Yes but if it has no proof of amping speed, it's not a "flat boost" and being treated like that is a mistake.
Ok but it doesn't matter. It's like saying "It's harder to deal with 1000m/s than it is to deal with 10m/s when the opponent can deal with FTL". It harder sure but it doesn't matter because he casually deals with much beyond, making this useless/gets countered.
Killing a T-Rex doesn't need speed though, it needs AP. As for the rest as i said, it's not a speed amp, it's minor at most unless stated to be greater and it's not a speed amp in the literal sense it just allows a faster acceleration than normal starts.
Ok that's false. First of all Speck is WAY faster than Hanayama. I don't know what speed feat you got where Hanyama actually kept up with him, but no. Second of all, even narration says it's not a speed amp. It's purely attacking without taking breaks, so there is no time for a counter attack, it's not fast, it's just relentless, them being fast is just because Speck is faster than Hanayama.
Excuse me where did Oliva actually kept up with Baki and Yujiro in speed? His whole shtick is being a tank, pure power and defenses, not a speedster.
All of those were scaled speeds, not actual speeds. There is a reason they aren't used for asigning multipliers.
The wiki treats this as an AP amp, so why is this a speed amp at all?
Wait i just checked, are you REALLY counting Jack standing there and tanking 20 punches as "blitz"? 1:07 This is not a blitz. Jack was just toying with him, hell Jack even bit him and he didn't even realize it. Everytime that dude landed a hit on Jack it was because Jack was reluctant to even block or dodge. You see him just standing there looking at him as he's getting punched.
Fair enough on the hand destruction and "the strength of the attack is breaking the sound barrier"....by Supersonic to Hypersonic guys.... And again a normal fast attack is not a stat amp, it's just a fast attack. Otherwise i have stat amp via finger flicking which allows my finger to move faster. It's the same concept but done with the arm.
Dorian got 1 shot by Retsu, idk how you scale them in speed, in a literal 1 attack fight where Retsu borderline stomped. Katsumi proved to be faster tha Dorian in that very same fight when he made a full rotating motion while being hanged with his kick extended and managed to land it on Dorian where as the latter hadn't even been able to put up his guard at all. And "before he even put up his guard" is completely false, Dorian was recovering from getting kicked in the nose, it was made painfully clear that he was not even looking at Katsumi. So yeah 4 attacks when someone is still recovering are not speed amps.
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2. It's not generalizations. It's basing on real-life statistics. If i say "51% of the human race are males" i'm not generalizing. The same way, most martial arts are effective on combat, SPECIALLY if you're a master at it. I'm not going to make an Excel table with every martial art that exists to prove my point, there's no need to. If a martial art is deemed useless, it shouldn't evolve to the modern world. It's only logical and natural that the effective martial arts are the ones that prevail while the useless ones are forgotten into nonexistence.Firephoenixearl said:
3. Alright. Watch 3:54 and 6:20.
4. It was explictly said that the punch itself would have killed Kaku Kaioh. Not the slam on the wall. And even then, enough force CAN bypass Xiao Lee with the force alone. By instance, Yujiro gave Kaku bloody noses before the wall stuff started to happen. There's also that one time Kaku had to dislocate his jaw to avoid damage.
Except you are? "First, AP and Durability don't matter against Xiao Lee, drop it." - Yourself
Except it doesn't really make a decent difference because the difference between a horizontal cut and a pierce cut isn't as big as the difference between a 10-C and a 7-C Actually, all these guys were said to be faster than Baki. He was training for his first fight against his father, who obviously curbstomped him.
8. 6th sense still stands. And people in Baki can sense auras, when the characters are this strong, their auras become easier to feel.
9. I see. However, that depends on context. By instance, did he have previous knowledge on the fights he started with Rasetsu?
10. Some, yeah. He also utilizes some techniques in other fights, but mostly to flex.
11. Yujiro isn't a doofus. There are very open areas, and if he planned on utilizing Xiao Lee, he'd run for them before using it. That is, if they don't start already on those fields, what isn't specified by SBA afaik.
a) Yeah, it does, mainly because Yujiro's hairs are fairly short so it means getting in H2H range, specially for someone with Yujiro's size.
b) Yes? The trick only makes the body rigid for a fraction of a second, thus the attack has to happen in that very short timeframe. w╠Ât╠Âf╠ ╠Âw╠Âh╠Ây╠ ╠Âd╠Âi╠Âd╠Ân╠Â'╠Ât╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠Âj╠Âu╠Âs╠Ât╠ ╠Âs╠Âh╠Âa╠Âv╠Âe╠ ╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âh╠Âa╠Âi╠Âr╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âl╠Â
c) With that, i can agree. I don't think he'd use it before realizing he's in true danger.
What's a Madoka and how it works? As i said previously, Baki characters can sense auras that are indication of not only physical strenght but rather overall strenght (skill, speed, AP, etc)
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@KG
2. Don't assume the martial arts not shown are good by Baki standards.
3. Do you even know what Aiki is? It's the attack reflection, not the weird thing he does to throw you up. That is just movement. He did that to Jack's bite before even though biting bypassed Aiki. Again grabbing bypasses it.
4. Because he wouldn't be able to reflect it. Yujiro's punches were dealing damage at all only after he started to slam him into the wall which was specifically stated to be a weakness. If his average punches were doing the slams are you saying his most powerful one wouldn't?
On these levels. Or on shown levels. Not saying you can throw Kaku Kaioh at 4-A's and have Xiao Lee work.
Yes because those punches did start to deal damage once they started abusing the weakness of Xiao Lee, same thing for piercing attacks. And it's not a "slash vs piercing" damage contest, it's a mechanic contest. you don't flip from being pierced in your centre of gravity. And about the Baki examples im gonna ask you to stop bringing baki consious movement and equalizing them to natural movement from relaxed muscles. They're literally opposites.
8. Prove it matters with skill.
9. On 2 of them yes, but that's why im not arguing "rasetsu opening move". Though precog makes it in character exactly when needed, my point is pls don't argue this. It's not like Yujiro has any answer what so ever to Ikki using magic. Im trying to keep this a purely skill debate.
10. Some isn't spam everything like there is no tomorrow, but eh, doesn't matter.
11.
>Yujiro
>Running away against a much weaker opponent
Choose better arguments pls. He's never done this, i can understand this as a complete last resort after seeing he's getting beat up by Ikki, but saying the dude whose capabilities pale in comparison ego and confidence as stated by Baki, running away in a fight to gain advantage is in character at any level is purely false.
c) When would he ever realize he's in true danger? He didn't use Xiao Lee against offensive Xiao Lee. He did feel he was truly in danger there.
Madoka is Ikki's attack reflection. You attack him, then you get a slash somewhere in your body cus the energy crossed Ikki's body.
2. Don't assume the martial arts not shown are good by Baki standards.
3. Do you even know what Aiki is? It's the attack reflection, not the weird thing he does to throw you up. That is just movement. He did that to Jack's bite before even though biting bypassed Aiki. Again grabbing bypasses it.
4. Because he wouldn't be able to reflect it. Yujiro's punches were dealing damage at all only after he started to slam him into the wall which was specifically stated to be a weakness. If his average punches were doing the slams are you saying his most powerful one wouldn't?
On these levels. Or on shown levels. Not saying you can throw Kaku Kaioh at 4-A's and have Xiao Lee work.
Yes because those punches did start to deal damage once they started abusing the weakness of Xiao Lee, same thing for piercing attacks. And it's not a "slash vs piercing" damage contest, it's a mechanic contest. you don't flip from being pierced in your centre of gravity. And about the Baki examples im gonna ask you to stop bringing baki consious movement and equalizing them to natural movement from relaxed muscles. They're literally opposites.
8. Prove it matters with skill.
9. On 2 of them yes, but that's why im not arguing "rasetsu opening move". Though precog makes it in character exactly when needed, my point is pls don't argue this. It's not like Yujiro has any answer what so ever to Ikki using magic. Im trying to keep this a purely skill debate.
10. Some isn't spam everything like there is no tomorrow, but eh, doesn't matter.
11.
>Yujiro
>Running away against a much weaker opponent
Choose better arguments pls. He's never done this, i can understand this as a complete last resort after seeing he's getting beat up by Ikki, but saying the dude whose capabilities pale in comparison ego and confidence as stated by Baki, running away in a fight to gain advantage is in character at any level is purely false.
c) When would he ever realize he's in true danger? He didn't use Xiao Lee against offensive Xiao Lee. He did feel he was truly in danger there.
Madoka is Ikki's attack reflection. You attack him, then you get a slash somewhere in your body cus the energy crossed Ikki's body.
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No, what I meant was that it will help him react to and adjust his attacks to whatever actions Ikki takes
You'll need to address that in a CRT
If Yujiro is acting in character, regardless of whether or not it actually makes a difference, if Yujiro is being completely outclassed like you're making this out to be, he's going to try to make a difference in any way possible
What? When did anyone say killing a T-Rex was a speed thing? I said he outsped a T-Rex. Pickle has a transformation that makes him massively faster, but he only needed to amp to kill a dinosaur once was the point, so while he had the AP, if the thing outspeeds him like how it was shown to in the flashback, Pickle could be Boundless and not kill it.
1) Where are you getting that Spec was faster and 2) Where does it ever say it's not a speed amp????
He literally matches Baki's speed constantly in their fight and he keeps up with a casual Yujiro...
Are we not using accepted speeds for the Vs Battle site?
Because the speed of the attack is what makes it an amp
He wasn't even able to retract his arm before the combo, it's obvious that Jack is insanely stronger than him, but the combo itself is clearly an amp. How would a move that amps your combat speed for the duration of the move permanently increase your reaction speed? If anything, Jack biting him without him even being able to react or notice only reaffirms that Jack is considerably faster, yet this basically no name was able to dump out his combo
This should be CRT'd as well then: Statistics Amplification (Via Mach Fist)
Dorian DID get oneshot by Retsu... after fighting Suedo, being hospitalized by Doppo, who absolutely annihilated him, jumping out of a several story building with broken kneecaps, and massive blood loss due to slitting his wrists and blowing off Doppo's face with a bomb in his wrist... They are absolutely scaled closely, at the beginning of the series, they stalemate each other (as well as them being Kaiohs, they both have the same master, etc). As for Katsumi v Dorian, I already said Katsumi was faster, but they are absolutely comparable. You literally just said he'd gotten kicked in the nose and couldn't put up his guard, therefore, he would be unable to react...
You'll need to address that in a CRT
If Yujiro is acting in character, regardless of whether or not it actually makes a difference, if Yujiro is being completely outclassed like you're making this out to be, he's going to try to make a difference in any way possible
What? When did anyone say killing a T-Rex was a speed thing? I said he outsped a T-Rex. Pickle has a transformation that makes him massively faster, but he only needed to amp to kill a dinosaur once was the point, so while he had the AP, if the thing outspeeds him like how it was shown to in the flashback, Pickle could be Boundless and not kill it.
1) Where are you getting that Spec was faster and 2) Where does it ever say it's not a speed amp????
He literally matches Baki's speed constantly in their fight and he keeps up with a casual Yujiro...
Are we not using accepted speeds for the Vs Battle site?
Because the speed of the attack is what makes it an amp
He wasn't even able to retract his arm before the combo, it's obvious that Jack is insanely stronger than him, but the combo itself is clearly an amp. How would a move that amps your combat speed for the duration of the move permanently increase your reaction speed? If anything, Jack biting him without him even being able to react or notice only reaffirms that Jack is considerably faster, yet this basically no name was able to dump out his combo
This should be CRT'd as well then: Statistics Amplification (Via Mach Fist)
Dorian DID get oneshot by Retsu... after fighting Suedo, being hospitalized by Doppo, who absolutely annihilated him, jumping out of a several story building with broken kneecaps, and massive blood loss due to slitting his wrists and blowing off Doppo's face with a bomb in his wrist... They are absolutely scaled closely, at the beginning of the series, they stalemate each other (as well as them being Kaiohs, they both have the same master, etc). As for Katsumi v Dorian, I already said Katsumi was faster, but they are absolutely comparable. You literally just said he'd gotten kicked in the nose and couldn't put up his guard, therefore, he would be unable to react...
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Kek, sure thing, know the feel.KGiffoni said:
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@Baki
Fair enough, though doesn't contribute to speed on attacks so better not mention it.
Well im asking is there any proof that it amps speed? If there is not then sure I'll make a CRT.
That's what im saying it won't make a difference. You're amping acceleration here not speed acceleration amp is literally useless if you're opponent has infinite acceleration. Better stick to just speed.
May need scan on the speed of the trex.
1. He was consistently landing attacks that hanayama wasn't blocking before. Where is your proof hanayama scales? 2. He says it is the oxygen less attack that athletes use. There is no time for a counter attack. Because he doesn't wait before attacking again. It was never meant or stated to be a speed amp its just attacking for a long time.
Casual yujiro because casual yujiro is keen on using speed and need scan for both of those.
The site doesn't allow multipliers off of that.
Scan on that pls.
Jack didn't retract his arm dude. He literally had a calm look on his eyes and was looking right at him, I'm serious a dude looking at you as he doesn't move isn't a speed amp. Jack also doesn't move against the finger on throat thing, doesn't mean he blitzed. He just didn't want to move against attacks that were tickling him at most. Your logic could literally be used to say "a kid blitzed a boxer because the boxer couldn't dodge the punch" it's very obvious from reaction when someone couldn't and when he wouldn't.
Sure.
Yeah then why are you scaling them? They never fought, gaia was said to be comparable to yujiro too, are you gonna use that to scale their every stat? As for the rest as i said dorian was still recovering from the attack and katsumi was faster. So time to ask you? How do you count as blitzing when he was unable to react because of damage, might as well say blitz cus he kicked an unconscious dude.
Fair enough, though doesn't contribute to speed on attacks so better not mention it.
Well im asking is there any proof that it amps speed? If there is not then sure I'll make a CRT.
That's what im saying it won't make a difference. You're amping acceleration here not speed acceleration amp is literally useless if you're opponent has infinite acceleration. Better stick to just speed.
May need scan on the speed of the trex.
1. He was consistently landing attacks that hanayama wasn't blocking before. Where is your proof hanayama scales? 2. He says it is the oxygen less attack that athletes use. There is no time for a counter attack. Because he doesn't wait before attacking again. It was never meant or stated to be a speed amp its just attacking for a long time.
Casual yujiro because casual yujiro is keen on using speed and need scan for both of those.
The site doesn't allow multipliers off of that.
Scan on that pls.
Jack didn't retract his arm dude. He literally had a calm look on his eyes and was looking right at him, I'm serious a dude looking at you as he doesn't move isn't a speed amp. Jack also doesn't move against the finger on throat thing, doesn't mean he blitzed. He just didn't want to move against attacks that were tickling him at most. Your logic could literally be used to say "a kid blitzed a boxer because the boxer couldn't dodge the punch" it's very obvious from reaction when someone couldn't and when he wouldn't.
Sure.
Yeah then why are you scaling them? They never fought, gaia was said to be comparable to yujiro too, are you gonna use that to scale their every stat? As for the rest as i said dorian was still recovering from the attack and katsumi was faster. So time to ask you? How do you count as blitzing when he was unable to react because of damage, might as well say blitz cus he kicked an unconscious dude.
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Comment eaten, rip smartphone
Ill ask on the GD thread why it amps everything
Ill get all the scans you ask for
Hanayama doesnt normally block anything (Ive got scans to explain). it allows you to amp your combat speed by holding your breath, negating the rhythm created by aligning your movements and breathing
I dont understand. Speeds on the site are allowed, right?
Dude visibly damages Jack with Quadruple, but Jack doesn't react. Is that a better example of a blitz? (For context, Quadruple has dura neg)
NGB Retsu and Dorian are scaled to be extremely similar on this site, Gaia and Yujiro are compared on the manga, very different things. Retsu fought Dorian at the beginning of NGB and they stalemated. Dorian has pain tolerance enough to loop a wire around Doppo's hand while getting smashed in the face. If you actually could react, he likely wouldve done something, regardless of what that something may have been.
Ill ask on the GD thread why it amps everything
Ill get all the scans you ask for
Hanayama doesnt normally block anything (Ive got scans to explain). it allows you to amp your combat speed by holding your breath, negating the rhythm created by aligning your movements and breathing
I dont understand. Speeds on the site are allowed, right?
Dude visibly damages Jack with Quadruple, but Jack doesn't react. Is that a better example of a blitz? (For context, Quadruple has dura neg)
NGB Retsu and Dorian are scaled to be extremely similar on this site, Gaia and Yujiro are compared on the manga, very different things. Retsu fought Dorian at the beginning of NGB and they stalemated. Dorian has pain tolerance enough to loop a wire around Doppo's hand while getting smashed in the face. If you actually could react, he likely wouldve done something, regardless of what that something may have been.
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So hanayama not blocking everything means Hanayama somehow scales to Pickle in speed? Hanayama not blocking just means that you can't compare the two. As for the amp, no, by holding your breath you reduce the time between each attack, not the speed of each. Breathing would create gaps between attacks, not breathing makes the stop before each attack faster. Back to the point, it's not "faster" it's just "relentless".
They're allowed for battles, not for multipliers. As calcs have mistakes in them, by doing stuff like taking multipliers off of them, you increase their mistake greatly and other problems arise. Similar reason as to why calc scaling isn't allowed.
No, Quadruple doesn't have dura neg. And no, he did not blitz. This is Jack before the attack starts, and this is Jack after the attack finishes. So now tell me, are those the reactions of a dude who was heavily damaged by 4 kicks? They're mosquito bites to him, he moving to those doesn't mean he got damaged. He was moving from the punches he felt reluctant to block, doesn't mean they actually damaged him. And this point is further proven false by the fact that after these, Jack still does not take action against this guy and lets him land a blow on his throat too, just for fun because why not.
When did they stalemate? Retsu and Dorian i mean. Mind linking the fight? I remember no such thing. As for pain tolerance, completely moot when you count in the fact that Dorian was crouching, had closed his eyes and was keeping his hands around his face. He was not gonna take actions in that state, he had his freaking eyes cloes for ****'s sake, how do you expect the dude to react to the kicks?
They're allowed for battles, not for multipliers. As calcs have mistakes in them, by doing stuff like taking multipliers off of them, you increase their mistake greatly and other problems arise. Similar reason as to why calc scaling isn't allowed.
No, Quadruple doesn't have dura neg. And no, he did not blitz. This is Jack before the attack starts, and this is Jack after the attack finishes. So now tell me, are those the reactions of a dude who was heavily damaged by 4 kicks? They're mosquito bites to him, he moving to those doesn't mean he got damaged. He was moving from the punches he felt reluctant to block, doesn't mean they actually damaged him. And this point is further proven false by the fact that after these, Jack still does not take action against this guy and lets him land a blow on his throat too, just for fun because why not.
When did they stalemate? Retsu and Dorian i mean. Mind linking the fight? I remember no such thing. As for pain tolerance, completely moot when you count in the fact that Dorian was crouching, had closed his eyes and was keeping his hands around his face. He was not gonna take actions in that state, he had his freaking eyes cloes for ****'s sake, how do you expect the dude to react to the kicks?
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I'm severely confused. The two individuals that are comparable in speed are Spec and Hanayama. Spec basically blitzes Hanayama in their fight with Apnea Rush, Pickle doesn't appear for 2 more seasons, and decreasing the time from one hit to the next is literally the description of amping combat speedFirephoenixearl said:
So what would be the proper approach for this situation? Amping this much isn't really something Yujiro does, as he's never really been outspeed before. Of course he would amp if that were the case, but I don't know how to go about it
Limited Durability Negation via Quadruple Median Line Strike (Targets pressure points and can damage opponents stronger than Katsumi). And no, I didn't say "heavily damaged", I said "visibly damaged", as in when the dude uses it on Jack's body instead of pressure points, it literally buckles his leg and cracks his jaw, to Jack's surprise. I'll link it
Ill link both the Retsu v Dorian fight and the Doppo vs Dorian fight part 1 where he's able to do a similar feat. He has senses other than sight to use (such as hearing the whistling of the kick through the air, or mitigation of the kick in some way after feeling the impact)
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**** it, Ikki FRA
Only and exclusively because Yujiro is in-character, it really pushes him back because he has that huge ego of his that makes him unlikely to utilize his best techniques and all that skill he has. I think he could win, but since it's in-character, Ikki FRA.
Only and exclusively because Yujiro is in-character, it really pushes him back because he has that huge ego of his that makes him unlikely to utilize his best techniques and all that skill he has. I think he could win, but since it's in-character, Ikki FRA.
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Pickle getting blitzed by Hitless Blow and remembering the T-Rex tail 5:20 https://youtu.be/LQdQL919Fo0
Young Yujiro vs Oliva https://youtu.be/9UtnUQVGlNc
Oliva fighting a casual adult Yujiro https://youtu.be/qLE0TXyWv5M
Baki v Oliva (this'll be the longest one) https://youtu.be/6bdncEX8wNA and https://youtu.be/wu23BzrVxWo (if you don't feel like watching the whole thing or you don't have the time, I find 2x speed helps)
Jack yeeting nobody Kengo at 4:25 https://youtu.be/HC_qxKjLxPE while Jack doesn't actually take on damage, he is visibly affected, yet Kengo uses the combo completely and only after following up with the good old finger-in-the-throat move does Jack hit him with the "no u"
Retsu v Dorian before Dorian cheats like always https://youtu.be/gDS91iCpmq0 each get an attack, Retsu barely dodged and Dorian barely blocked, with both being fine after
Dorian v Doppo, Doppo blonds him with his duffle bag, and follows with a kick, while Dorian secretly slips a micron wire around his wrist
I think that's all the scans, feel free to watch the full vids for any details or context I missed, I tend to miss stuff when rushing to gather scans and info
Young Yujiro vs Oliva https://youtu.be/9UtnUQVGlNc
Oliva fighting a casual adult Yujiro https://youtu.be/qLE0TXyWv5M
Baki v Oliva (this'll be the longest one) https://youtu.be/6bdncEX8wNA and https://youtu.be/wu23BzrVxWo (if you don't feel like watching the whole thing or you don't have the time, I find 2x speed helps)
Jack yeeting nobody Kengo at 4:25 https://youtu.be/HC_qxKjLxPE while Jack doesn't actually take on damage, he is visibly affected, yet Kengo uses the combo completely and only after following up with the good old finger-in-the-throat move does Jack hit him with the "no u"
Retsu v Dorian before Dorian cheats like always https://youtu.be/gDS91iCpmq0 each get an attack, Retsu barely dodged and Dorian barely blocked, with both being fine after
Dorian v Doppo, Doppo blonds him with his duffle bag, and follows with a kick, while Dorian secretly slips a micron wire around his wrist
I think that's all the scans, feel free to watch the full vids for any details or context I missed, I tend to miss stuff when rushing to gather scans and info
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First of all, they don't scale in speed. Second of all no, he's just deciding not to take breaks between attacks. I can attack you once then attack again after 7 hours. I can also attack once and attack again in a split second. I didn't stat amp, I just decided not to do things in between like breathing taking coffee breaks, monologuing etc. My speed didn't increase im just attacking more often.
You just don't assign multipliers, given that speed is equalized. If it weren't you can say sth like "can blitz hypersonic guys".
No no no. It moved his leg, moved his jaw etc. Where did you even get the crack his jaw? Jack got no damage and even after that he didn't move and let him attack again. Back to the point absolutely not. You trying to scale speed amp cus a fodder attacked a top tier who was literally reluctant to block or dodge ain't happening.
No, I've seen the fight, scaling from hitting a guy that might as well be crying and closed his eyes mid fight is plain stupidity. Just drop it, it's becoming circular.
You just don't assign multipliers, given that speed is equalized. If it weren't you can say sth like "can blitz hypersonic guys".
No no no. It moved his leg, moved his jaw etc. Where did you even get the crack his jaw? Jack got no damage and even after that he didn't move and let him attack again. Back to the point absolutely not. You trying to scale speed amp cus a fodder attacked a top tier who was literally reluctant to block or dodge ain't happening.
No, I've seen the fight, scaling from hitting a guy that might as well be crying and closed his eyes mid fight is plain stupidity. Just drop it, it's becoming circular.
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