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Leftovers from Kirby revisions

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Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
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Very little things are left. Any criticism or doubts from the previous changes are welcome.
  • The low-tiers' speed is unknown right now, they can scale to this (0.64 c - Relativistic+) and other feats that need to be calc'd are the speed of Bandana Dee, Knuckles Joe, and Irom Mom cracking Planet Popstar. Those 3 feats need to be calc'd and then we will see.
  • (✔) Sectonia should have Breaking the Fourth Wall and minor Toon Force as she throws Kirby into the 4th wall here, here and here while there's nothing there, on the latter case Kirby bounces over and over in the limits of the screem where there's nothing there.
  • Some of Kirby's Copy Abilities that can grab things do so against enemies' projectiles, be it things they shoot or those yellow starsI assume are energy, and throw them back at them, so they should have Attack Reflection.
    • They can also grab not very solid things that should fall apart on contact, but I would only go off vague memories if I had to mention them all. So I will list them over time as an album on Imgur and when I'm done add that to base Kirby's NPI.
  • (✔) On Magolor/the Master Crown's feat, I would need this twitter post translated as supporting evidence as it mentions Another Dimension (異空間) collapsing while taking about that feat. I'm unsure if it means "(all of) Another Dimension was collapsing" or "there was a collapse happening in Another Dimension", the latter keeps the feat as it is, the former kinda confirms the feat's 2-C and makes it a bit higher than 15 or 16 universes. And that would be a pain as something that big should not be confirmed in twitter, given how others will see it, yet the Kirby twitter gives canon lore at random and all of Another Dimension collapsing logistically makes too much sense on its own.
Edit:
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Edit 2, from Forgotten Land:
Also see this sandbox.
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From the Mo~Pupu! manga continuity I found other people here giving scans and could draw from there this much info
  • Kirby shows acrobatics Book 13, chapters 1 & 3
  • In Book 13, chapter 7 UFO Kirby shows to levitate some crocodiles (TK ig) and teleport them
  • In Book 13 chapter 5 MK shows Energy Projection
I'm not moving the evidence for that into imgur.

Their speed could also use a calc btw.
 
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Agree with everything.

Regarding the last part, it says "崩壊する異空間のマップ" which I would read "map of the collapsing Another Dimension" (you could technically read it Another Dimension's collapsing map but it just sounds odd imo).
 
I got out of magic a random page from 1 of the Jap. guides from Return to Dream Land



It doesn't say much but we got 2 things from it; it refers to Magolor's super abilities-like attacks as him using super abilities, which is deceptively huge, and Magolor is said to be dominated by the power of the crown, which is the same said for Parallel Landia, further supporting that they're in the same position.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Why would the low tiers randomly scale to that 0.64c calc? I agree with everything else
Click to expand...
If you mean low-tiers as in any random regular enemy (Like that pink mosquito ball thing) then not all of them scale, Helpers like the one who made the feat do.
Armorchompy said:
These are projectiles/strikes/tackles, and as such they don't count as LS.
Click to expand...
Didn't know that, that rule seems kinda weird.
XXKINGXX69 said:
Why are black holes not used as LS?
Click to expand...
They're little more than holes that suck in things in fiction, really. I can't find the standards that would make black holes real black holes but I don't see why bother.
 
Eficiente said:
If you mean low-tiers as in any random regular enemy (Like that pink mosquito ball thing) then not all of them scale, Helpers like the one who made the feat do.

Didn't know that, that rule seems kinda weird.

They're little more than holes that suck in things in fiction, really. I can't find the standards that would make black holes real black holes but I don't see why bother.
Click to expand...
It sucks in the space and stars around, doesn't it?
 
because escaping them is a speed thing, not a LS thing, and I don't think kirby black holes count as "real" anyway
Eficiente said:
Didn't know that, that rule seems kinda weird.
Click to expand...
"While Striking Strength measures the energy of a character's physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means that they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with."

It's kind of a weirdly worded argument but the real reason is if it wasn't that way AP and SS would basically be uniform for literally everything. unless some character had insane LS feats. It would also mean every tier 2 and above character having Immeasurable LS and that would be quite silly

I'll see if I can maybe recall some decent LS feats for Kirby, though I doubt it because of his small size.
Eficiente said:
They're little more than holes that suck in things in fiction, really. I can't find the standards that would make black holes real black holes but I don't see why bother.
Click to expand...
Black Hole Feats in Fiction
 
The versus threads need to be deleted on a case by case basis just like i said in that thread since some fights are new and some aren't contradicting current stats.

Kirby's mistress 0 and future warrior victories can stay since it is the unchanged 4-A key that is being used
Kirby's loss against IF can stay unless you have sth to say against it
Kirby's incon matches seem fine to keep too
Meta knight's wins against dedede and Ilsa can stay since the former is an in-verse fight and the latter is a post-upgrade battle
Dedede's loss to MK stays
Magolor's digitamon fight may stay though that one's up to you to decide.
 
For the record, do we have any info about that one metallic enemy in squeak squad? The big version can be pretty heavy if its of the right material
 
Yeah but it's not a quantifiable feat unless they can pull in heavy objects or something
 
Btw i remember that game where Dedede stole the stars from the night sky. The stars were shown to be smaller than real stars but i remember seeing moments of the game and some seemed to be decently large (not stellar ls but maybe higher than freakin' class 1). Considering dedede dragged them through the sky he could scale
 
this is what i mean
hqdefault.jpg


idk if we can actually calc it but seems plausible. The stars are way way down below and the course kirby completes is always kilometers above the ground all the way above the cloud layer
hqdefault.jpg


here's another example
hqdefault.jpg
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
It sucks in the space and stars around, doesn't it?
Click to expand...
That one's already used as LS at a later point in time, this is for first key Kirby and the Helpers low-tiers.
Armorchompy said:
"While Striking Strength measures the energy of a character's physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means that they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with."

It's kind of a weirdly worded argument but the real reason is if it wasn't that way AP and SS would basically be uniform for literally everything. unless some character had insane LS feats. It would also mean every tier 2 and above character having Immeasurable LS and that would be quite silly
Click to expand...
That doesn't say anything about projectiles/strikes/tackles sending targets flying. If a projectile I use sends a whale flying 20 meters and the same is used on something else then the same amount of lifting out of he ground would be applied. If I use a strike or tackle to send a whale flying 20 meters and the same on something else then the same amount of lifting out of he ground would be applied. Heck what if that target I was attacking has less durability than the whale, and so less of a reason to divert the lifting in the attacks; It should go flying if its LS is lower and if I only send it back a little bit it shows that its LS kinda scales to mine.

There is this feat Kirby has with projectiles in which he pushes back the planet-sized Star Dream many times as if punching it in its face. If a random character were to take that blast from Kirby w/o moving, I would not think it would be affected if it had a truck dropped from above, or a city. Or a country.
Arceus0x said:
The versus threads need to be deleted on a case by case basis just like i said in that thread since some fights are new and some aren't contradicting current stats.
Click to expand...
You said that and then nobody ended up doing the job, hence I need to go over that again. Please don't be stubborn, do you really predict anyone's gonna do that? And even then, I don't even trust the accuracy of how those MUs ended after the revisions I made between AP changing and abilities like sensing power.
Arceus0x said:
this is what i mean
hqdefault.jpg


idk if we can actually calc it but seems plausible. The stars are way way down below and the course kirby completes is always kilometers above the ground all the way above the cloud layer
Click to expand...
Those are not the stars he takes, that's just background stuff. The stars he takes are from enemies when defeated like the plot and guide says, the feat's nonexistent.

More notably, you don't prove what you said by just showing some images, because that alone proves nothing. Imagine if that was the proof profiles gave.
 
Eficiente said:
You said that and then nobody ended up doing the job, hence I need to go over that again. Please don't be stubborn, do you really predict anyone's gonna do that? And even then, I don't even trust the accuracy of how those MUs ended after the revisions I made between AP changing and abilities like sensing power.
Click to expand...
I get it, however the MK vs DDD and MK vs Ilsa may stay as the former is a battle within the verse and the other is a battle that happened after the revisions and was pretty simple and accurate
 
Eficiente said:
That doesn't say anything about projectiles/strikes/tackles sending targets flying. If a projectile I use sends a whale flying 20 meters and the same is used on something else then the same amount of lifting out of he ground would be applied. If I use a strike or tackle to send a whale flying 20 meters and the same on something else then the same amount of lifting out of he ground would be applied. Heck what if that target I was attacking has less durability than the whale, and so less of a reason to divert the lifting in the attacks; It should go flying if its LS is lower and if I only send it back a little bit it shows that its LS kinda scales to mine.
Click to expand...
Striking something and make it flying is Striking Strength, and as such it's not applicable for LS, simple as that. Obviously IRL it's all force but this is a separation that we make. Projectiles are even less applicable. Mind you the whale feat I don't think is a direct consequence of the strike anyway. Just like, use Kirby sucking up a big object, it's the best you're getting probably.
Eficiente said:
There is this feat Kirby has with projectiles in which he pushes back the planet-sized Star Dream many times as if punching it in its face. If a random character were to take that blast from Kirby w/o moving, I would not think it would be affected if it had a truck dropped from above, or a city. Or a country.
Click to expand...
They wouldn't be, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to lift them either afterwards.
 
Replying the first with the second
Armorchompy said:
They wouldn't be, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to lift them either afterwards.
Click to expand...
True, but if other characters can make them move, unlike that planet-moving attack, then those characters scale, and if the former character in turn scales to the latter, then they would in fact be able to deal with said a truck, city or country. And this much happens with Kirby, replace "planet-moving blast" with any projectile, "not moving by it" with any enemy that does that, and scaling to it with Kirby and MK pushing out each other's sword evenly.

So, projectiles/strikes/tackles do use LS because that's how it works on real life, if any of that moves something, but fails to move something else, then the latter scales unless some other factors helped to that. Ex. I throw a ball at a car and that sends the car flying, but then I throw the same at something else and it doesn't move or move notably less, clearly projectiles have LS.

I get that this whale flying is kinda odd as it doesn't do so instantly but puts itself in the middle of the screen and then does so, as in we needing to interpret that final blow, and suspicion being pretty much "maybe it made itself fly out of wanting to make drama", but that makes little sense if said out loud, it seems unconscious when defeated, it doesn't seem to have any reason to do that, placing the whale in the middle first makes sense gameplay wise rather than it flying away from anywhere, and there is a bit of a trend with we needing to interpret the final thing done to a boss based on what it happens to it. Which is mostly them flying away. Another take is "Toon Force made it be in the middle of the screen via TK and fly away while it was unconscious", which I don't believe happened.
 
Eficiente said:
Replying the first with the second

True, but if other characters can make them move, unlike that planet-moving attack, then those characters scale, and if the former character in turn scales to the latter, then they would in fact be able to deal with said a truck, city or country.
Click to expand...
That would be calc stacking, scaling the effects of someone's punch to other people they punch.
Eficiente said:
So, projectiles/strikes/tackles do use LS because that's how it works on real life
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter, we make the distinction here and not allow it..
Eficiente said:
If any of that moves something, but fails to move something else, then the latter scales unless some other factors helped to that. Ex. I throw a ball at a car and that sends the car flying, but then I throw the same at something else and it doesn't move or move notably less, clearly projectiles have LS.
Click to expand...
No, they have force behind them, that's different, we don't consider that force applicable for lifting strength.
Eficiente said:
I get that this whale flying is kinda odd as it doesn't do so instantly but puts itself in the middle of the screen and then does so, as in we needing to interpret that final blow, and suspicion being pretty much "maybe it made itself fly out of wanting to make drama", but that makes little sense if said out loud
Click to expand...
Call it death throes or something like that if you want, it's clearly not being physically tossed around. Mind you the feat would probably be very unimpressive considering Kirby's small size.
 
I'm sorry for the first thing, but you're gonna have to make a thread to have that better written in the LS page, as we don't disallow it and I disagree with it.

Death throes or something makes sense for the first reaction it does, but not much for the spins over and over again when it flies away, and the little pause in between that and the real final hit done is odd if the whale is moving away himself. As I see it, it is a reasonable take, but so is that it got tossed away, and more even.
 
Eficiente said:
I'm sorry for the first thing, but you're gonna have to make a thread to have that better written in the LS page, as we don't disallow it and I disagree with it.
Click to expand...
Nope, that's how we currently treat it. Realize that otherwise literally every single punching feat would be a LS feat too, because tier 7 punch -> character isn't ragdolled by it -> that's calculated as Class G or whatever.
 
also i'd like to add something


potential weather/cloud manipulation for Dark mind's last form since the moment he transforms orange clouds start flowing at colossal speeds in the background
 
Armorchompy said:
Nope, that's how we currently treat it. Realize that otherwise literally every single punching feat would be a LS feat too, because tier 7 punch -> character isn't ragdolled by it -> that's calculated as Class G or whatever.
Click to expand...
If "that's just how we have it" then fine, but the LS page still doesn't say that and nor do I find it accurate.
Arceus0x said:
out of what?
Click to expand...
They were selling it here and I took use out of it.
Arceus0x said:
also i'd like to add something


potential weather/cloud manipulation for Dark mind's last form since the moment he transforms orange clouds start flowing at colossal speeds in the background
Click to expand...

Doesn't look to be the same place.
 
and for goodness sake how are the japanese so good at not pirating stuff. Like this guide is surprisingly popular for a random game guide, how did nobody think of sharing info?
I guess the only thing one can do is search for kirby related internal japanese forums which is nigh-impossible
 
Arceus0x said:
and for goodness sake how are the japanese so good at not pirating stuff.
Click to expand...
Rather, we are too incompetent at not organizing ourselves to share this things online if it's a verse for kids. Touhou has all its stuff transcribed, I could watch most FF guides online if I wanted to, the list goes on but with Kirby people conform too easily.
 
Eficiente said:
Rather, we are too incompetent at not organizing ourselves to share this things online if it's a verse for kids. Touhou has all its stuff transcribed, I could watch most FF guides online if I wanted to, the list goes on but with Kirby people conform too easily.
Click to expand...
its cause kirby fans do this

c0487b09632977314ed5cf491ee686f6.jpg


We are told to do so.
We beat up meta knight because he said not to do so
 
Just updated the blog about canon as I was just informed in twitter that a canon book shows Nintendo Power magazines in it. We really only used info from them as secondary stuff, at best Drawcia having this "potentially Incorporeality (Intuitive by her name and stated in a Nintendo Power magazine, of unclear authority for Kirby canon)"

But now, it very much seems canon. Drawcia should solidly have Incorporeality, and Low-Godly regen as her Sorceress form is said to be physical in contrast, the Jap. guide of her game also states stuff that sounds fitting, that being how her Sorceress form is a fake form she took on from her true form.
 
Eficiente said:
If "that's just how we have it" then fine.
Click to expand...
From my experience, at least. Also, I don't think the whale feat would be worth much considering Kirby's short height, Fatty Whale is probably like, the size of a small dog. The speed it flies at would also probably be slow
 
Armorchompy said:
From my experience, at least. Also, I don't think the whale feat would be worth much considering Kirby's short height, Fatty Whale is probably like, the size of a small dog. The speed it flies at would also probably be slow
Click to expand...
Nah it would be the size of a wailmer but whatever, doesn't matter either way
 
Eficiente said:
Just updated the blog about canon as I was just informed in twitter that a canon book shows Nintendo Power magazines in it. We really only used info from them as secondary stuff, at best Drawcia having this "potentially Incorporeality (Intuitive by her name and stated in a Nintendo Power magazine, of unclear authority for Kirby canon)"

But now, it very much seems canon. Drawcia should solidly have Incorporeality, and Low-Godly regen as her Sorceress form is said to be physical in contrast, the Jap. guide of her game also states stuff that sounds fitting, that being how her Sorceress form is a fake form she took on from her true form.
Click to expand...
Considering Kirby beats up regenerating oppnents constantly shouldn't he have some form of regen negation?
 
That's wank/You're just saying it because other characters have it via similarly weak reasons. Regen isn't just a level but the speed in which it works and its own stamina aside from its user's overall stamina. Drawcia once created a physical form for herself, cool, but we have no reason to believe she can do so again mid-combat.
 
Eficiente said:
That's wank/You're just saying it because other characters have it via similarly weak reasons. Regen isn't just a level but the speed in which it works and its own stamina aside from its user's overall stamina. Drawcia once created a physical form for herself, cool, but we have no reason to believe she can do so again mid-combat.
Click to expand...
so its regen that isn't combat applicable?
 
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