Kingdom Hearts: Re:Vising the Cosmology

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hi.

This is my first CRT of the year.

Let’s start it off with a bang.

The Ocean Between

In Kingdom Hearts, the “Ocean Between”, is described as:

There are two ways to travel, one of which is to use a Gummi Ship like Sora and his friends do to move through the "Ocean Between", the space studded with all the worlds.

— Director’s Secret Report

And once more, by Xehanort:

The World is vast—and the worlds within the greater World, uncountable. Like little islands, they dot a great Ocean Between which keeps them ignorant of each other, uncorrupted.

— Xehanort’s Report II

Thirdly, in the same report, it’s cited to be what’s defined as an “Other Sky”. Following this vein of logic, also Cid describes it as an “interspace”.

The direct size of The Ocean Between is explicitly defined by Xehanort once again, in the Japanese iteration of the report, being a structure that possesses an infinite space in comparison to the rest of the worlds that inhabit it.

For reference, worlds in Kingdom Hearts are recurrently stated to be entire space-times. We see this proven true by Joshua and Riku in KH3D, stating each world has separate flows of time, and again, by Xehanort, in Dark Road.

To top it all off into a final statement, that describes the Ocean Between as a “hyperspace”, one that Maleficent banished Pete to.

All-in-all, this properly concludes The Ocean Between as a Low 1-C structure, an infinite hyperspace that encompasses an uncountable amount of worlds, each with their differentiated flow of space-time.

Subsequently, all that travel through the Ocean Between get an Immeasurable Speed rating. Examples of this include Ventus, from Birth by Sleep, actively fighting one of Vanitas’ weaker Unversed, whilst traveling between worlds. Terra replicates this feat, too, and utilizing that exact same glider in combat, against Sora. These aren’t a one off-feats either, as again, the Director’s Report asserts a Gummi Ship is used to travel through the Ocean Between, in which Sora and co. can fight in it.

The Scaling

Everyone. Mostly.

The ones that were planned to scale to 2-A (or now Low 1-C) are:
Sora, Riku, Kairi
Mickey, Donald, Goofy
Aqua, Terra, Ventus
Roxas, Lea, Xion
All KHIII Real Org XIII members (notably Xehanort)
True KH
X-Blade
All 5 Foretellers, Player, Pet, Ephemer, Skuld
Data-Sora, Data-Riku, Sora's Heartless, Data-Roxas, Maleficent, All Sora’s Summons (yes, including Stitch)
Luxu
Master of Masters

Conclusion

5:19 @Executor_N0 (neutral on immeasurable speed), @DarkDragonMedeus (neutral on immeasurable speed, okay with infinite speed), @DarkGrath (disagrees with immeasurable, neutral on infinite speed), @Antvasima (on Low 1-C), @Bobsican (neutral on immeasurable speed), @Deceived3596 (neutral on immeasurable speed), @Dr._whiteee (neutral on immeasurable speed), @Zencha9 (neutral on immeasurable speed), @thetechmaster36 (neutral on immeasurable speed), @The_2nd_Existential_Seed (neutral on immeasurable speed), @Strife304, @TheKingStrategist13, @ThanatosX (neutral on immeasurable, agrees with infinite), @Neon2hu, @Quantu (with Low 1-C), @Delta333 (neutral on immeasurable), @Abu2411 (agrees with infinite speed), @Comicgyal (neutral on immeasurable, agrees with infinite), @Lukewoesal007 (neutral on immeasurable speed, agrees with infinite speed), @Tarang123 (neutral on infinite speed), @Vietthai96 (on Low 1-C), @ImmortalDread (on Low 1-C, disagrees with immeasurable), @Nehz_XZX (neutral on speed)

1:1 @Everything12, @StrymULTRA

Let’s discuss.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm neutral on Immeasurable speed out of the Tiering System FAQ basically confirming that merely traveling in an Higher-D space isn't inherently that speed, but I'm fine with tier 1.

I'd also note that only Sora's summons in KHII onwards should scale, as anything previous still scales to the current 2-B stuff, Luxu and MoM should also scale, the former could fight with Ava (a Foreteller), and the latter upscales to the Foretellers.

However...

We see this proven true by Joshua and Riku in Birth by Sleep, stating each world has separate flows of time, and again, by Xehanort, in Dark Road.

Uh... the bolded part is incorrect, this bit was in KH3D, not BbS, but it's correct beyond that.

I think the Dark Road link also has a missing time stamp, should be this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I accepted Infinite speed on discord, but need more time to think if this is Immeasurable but so far leaning towards not being sure.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I accepted Infinite speed on discord, but need more time to think if this is Immeasurable but so far leaning towards not being sure.

Take your time, awaiting Ultima and Grath, like before.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm neutral on Immeasurable speed out of the Tiering System FAQ basically confirming that merely traveling in an Higher-D space isn't inherently that speed, but I'm fine with tier 1.

I'd also note that only Sora's summons in KHII onwards should scale, as anything previous still scales to the current 2-B stuff, Luxu and MoM should also scale, the former could fight with Ava (a Foreteller), and the latter upscales to the Foretellers.

However...


Uh... the bolded part is incorrect, this bit was in KH3D, not BbS, but it's correct beyond that.

I think the Dark Road link also has a missing time stamp, should be this.

Made the necessary edits, thanks.

 

[ThanatosX]

After reading everything, I think I agree with Low 1-C. I never actually thought about it, but it seems pretty straight forward. The Ocean Between is stated clearly as being infinite in size, and the characters themselves often emphatizes how small a single world is compared to everything else.
All things considered, the Ocean Between is infinitely bigger than the worlds inside of it, so it should qualify as Tier 1.

For Immeasurable speed, I am not really well verse with it so I might not be the best one to say if it qualify or not, but personally it seems fine to me. I also agree with Infinite speed, in case Immeasurable gets rejected.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Um hi everyone. So this doesn't necessarily mean I'm back for good, but I am here to support a friend's CRT thread. This space of the Oceans Between does seem to qualify as an equivalent to 5D space based on how it is worded and works in-verse. So I'm all for Low 1-C.

 

[Everything12]

How big are each of the worlds that occupy the Oceans Between?

 

[Bobsican]

How big are each of the worlds that occupy the Oceans Between?

Each one is currently accepted as a universe, see here for more information, note that some terminology may be outdated now.

 

[Everything12]

Each one is currently accepted as a universe, see here for more information

Would I correct in believing this CRT is based on similar logic to Ben 10 and Maou Gakuin?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Following. Sorry, don't know enough to give proper input, but this just goes soooo hard.

 

[Bobsican]

Would I correct in believing this CRT is based on similar logic to Ben 10 and Maou Gakuin?

I'm unaware of the tier 1 reasonings for both of those verses, so I can't comment on that.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Would I correct in believing this CRT is based on similar logic to Ben 10 and Maou Gakuin?

I don’t know about those CRTs, nor do I have absolutely any involvement with them.

Following. Sorry, don't know enough to give proper input, but this just goes soooo hard.

Enix together strong.

 

[Everything12]

Then I disagree. Being infinitely bigger than Low 2-C structures is at best 2-A, not Low 1-C.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Meh, disagree too.

Being infinitely bigger than a 2-B multiverse is 2-A and not Low 1-C, unless you think that 2-A is finite-times bigger than 2-B lol.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Then I disagree. Being infinitely bigger than Low 2-C structures is at best 2-A, not Low 1-C.

This is objectively incorrect, as once again, it’s directly called a hyperspace, which by definition is beyond the conventions of a four-dimensional bulk.

Meh, disagree too.

Being infinitely bigger than a 2-B multiverse is 2-A and not Low 1-C, unless you think that 2-A is finite-times bigger than 2-B lol.

It would be if it were just simple space. A hyperspace is not, though, which is what the Ocean Between explicitly is.

 

[Everything12]

This is objectively incorrect, as once again, it’s directly called a hyperspace, which by definition is beyond the conventions of a four-dimensional bulk.

Does it ever detail what a hyperspace means in the series. Because we do not use scientific and mathematical concepts that the series in question does not give descriptions that match it's proper meaning.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Does it ever detail what a hyperspace means in the series. Because we do not use scientific and mathematical concepts that the series in question does not have descriptions that match it's proper meaning.

Yes, it does, I provided evidence already in the OP. Kingdom Hearts fulfills the requirements that is both a realm that allows for faster-than-light travel, and a realm of higher-dimensions, given the fact that it is explicitly stated infinite in size in comparison to other space-times (which we already default as infinite), going as far as to call them “small worlds”.

Which, in contrast to the tiering system, is stated as this:

Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

 

[Everything12]

Yes, it does, I provided evidence already in the OP. Kingdom Hearts fulfills the requirements that is both a realm that allows for faster-than-light travel, and a realm of higher-dimensions, given the fact that it is explicitly stated infinite in size in comparison to other space-times (which we already default as infinite), going as far as to call them “small worlds”.

This is not sufficient evidence to prove that they are equivalent to actual hyperspaces. You would need an actual description that matches how it's described in science.

As far as this is concerned this is simple a fancy name to describe the space between universes and not grounds for Tier 1.

As far as the wiki is concerned. If you (that being the series in questions) want to use scientific terms then you have got to put in the effort to prove you know what your talking about and aren't just using them as a fancy name for a different concept.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Low 1-C seems fine as the worlds are embedded onto the higher dimensional space.

No comments on speed.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is not sufficient evidence to prove that they are equivalent to actual hyperspaces. You would need an actual description that matches how it's described in science.

As far as this is concerned this is simple a fancy name to describe the space between universes and not grounds for Tier 1.

No, you haven’t disproven the evidence, in the slightest, actually. The actual definition of hyperspace is as such:

In science fiction, hyperspace (also known as nulspace, subspace, overspace, jumpspace and similar terms) is a concept relating to higher dimensions as well as parallel universes and a faster-than-light (FTL) method of interstellar travel.

And as I’ve shown here, it fulfills the interstellar travel portion:

There are two ways to travel, one of which is to use a Gummi Ship like Sora and his friends do to move through the "Ocean Between", the space studded with all the worlds.

— Director’s Secret Report

Space-time is inherently accepted as 4-D, and infinitely superior to a 3-D dimensional space on this site, the tiering system says as much.

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space.

Joshua and Riku in KH3D prove that every world operates under a different space-time, stating each world has separate flows of time, and again, by Xehanort, in Dark Road, with Ansem undeniably calling the space “infinite”, in comparison to the “small worlds”, which are entire space-times. There is no way to hand wave this, he objectively refers to the worlds embedded in the Ocean as infinitesimal compared to the greater bulk.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Just as a note, Ultima already agrees with my premise, and will be joining the thread soon. That, and Dark Grath, too.

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah.... Milly Rocking Bandit's arguments are significantly more convincing then Everything's counter arguments.

Agree with Low 1-C, neutral on Immeasurable speed, basically the same opinion as Bob.

 

[Zencha9]

same here i think milly's arguments are more convincing so gonna agree with Low 1-C here
not knowledgeable that much in regards to the specifcs of Immeasurable so i'll stay netrual as well

 

[thetechmaster36]

Low 1-C looks good imo, couldn't care less about Immeasurable speed since that ain't my forte

 

[Strife304]

I wholeheartedly agree with low 1-C.

I'm in agreement with immeasurable speed, but if not, it is at the very least Infinite Speed.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

For whatever it's worth, I am in agreement. Kingdom Hearts, as laid out by Milly, appears to have the proper qualifications for Tier 1. I've always personally believed in Immeasurable as well, and this seems to also make sense to me. So, I agree with the contents of this revision too, and hope this goes through properly.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that Everything12 seems to make sense here.

 

[Antvasima]

@CrimsonStarFallen @SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX @Mr._Bambu @Matthew_Schroeder @Js250476

What do you think about this?

 

[Executor_N0]

This notion of a higher-dimensional space works if we think that since the worlds each have their own time axis and are separate dimensions in regards to the Ocean Between, the space of the Ocean Between that contains the many parallel worlds would be akin to a higher-dimensional space with an additional axis where the many worlds are embedded. Of course, calling it a hyperspace does invoke the idea of something beyond standard spatial dimensions, so it could be something with a fourth+ spatial axis that contains the many worlds.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This notion of a higher-dimensional space works if we think that since the worlds each have their own time axis and are separate dimensions in regards to the Ocean Between, the space of the Ocean Between that contains the many parallel worlds would be akin to a higher-dimensional space with an additional axis where the many worlds are embedded. Of course, calling it a hyperspace does invoke the idea of something beyond standard spatial dimensions, so it could be something with a fourth+ spatial axis that contains the many worlds.

It’s nice to see, you Executor. Should I count this as an agreement or neutral, I don’t wanna assume anything.

 

[Executor_N0]

It’s to see you Executor. Should I count this as an agreement or neutral, I don’t wanna assume anything.

Was more of a comment on the general idea, I would say neutral for now in regards to the speed, but the general construct being Low 1-C is something I can agree with. The problem with the speed is more the same we always have with the concept, if they are capable of accessing the higherdimension on their own, it's fair for me, if they need outside help for that or using a specific power that allows them to access that world, that is generally where the problem is between "can enter and move beyond space-time with a specific ability" and "can transcend into beyond space-time as part of their nature".

 

[ImmortalDread]

While I may not concur with the current assessment of the speed attribute, I am in agreement with the proposed classification of low 1-C. I will provide a detailed evaluation and input on this matter at a later time.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Was more of a comment on the general idea, I would say neutral for now in regards to the speed, but the general construct being Low 1-C is something I can agree with.

Excellent.

The problem with the speed is more the same we always have with the concept, if they are capable of accessing the higherdimension on their own, it's fair for me, if they need outside help for that or using a specific power that allows them to access that world, that is generally where the problem is between "can enter and move beyond space-time with a specific ability" and "can transcend into beyond space-time as part of their nature".

This actually is the case. For instance, in Birth by Sleep, Terra not only opens a hole in space-time, and immediately travels through The Ocean Between. He effectively proves this is combat applicable, too, shown hsre

Terra replicates this feat, too, and utilizing that exact same glider in combat, against Sora.

And here, from Ventus, in the same game.

Examples of this include Ventus, from Birth by Sleep, actively fighting one of Vanitas’ weaker Unversed, whilst traveling between worlds.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Power creep, eh?

I'm good. I don't care to deal with Kingdom Hearts. My distaste for the verse should be well known, and it extends well beyond the shoddy scaling it experiences on this site. I ought not be called in for these'ns.

 

[Bobsican]

The series is only at the beginning of the second arc

 

[Neon2hu]

I also agree with the 1-C upgrade. I've also always been a believer of immeasurable KH so agreements there too.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Thirdly, in the same report, it’s cited to be what’s defined as an “Other Sky”. Following this vein of logic, also Cid describes it as an “interspace”.

I express a high degree of neutrality regarding the question of whether the specific terms in question are explained in more depth within any established canon

The direct size of The Ocean Between is explicitly defined by Xehanort once again, in the Japanese iteration of the report, being a structure that possesses an infinite space in comparison to the rest of the worlds that inhabit it.

Disagree, this is high 3-A

For reference, worlds in Kingdom Hearts are recurrently stated to be entire space-times. We see this proven true by Joshua and Riku in KH3D, stating each world has separate flows of time, and again, by Xehanort, in Dark Road.

The concept of a separate flow of time, while distinct from the idea of multiple timelines, does not inherently confer any benefit. The distinction between the two concepts should be clearly understood, as they have fundamentally different implications for understanding temporal phenomena. The notion of a separate flow of time implies a distinct and independent progression of events, whereas the concept of multiple timelines suggests the possibility of a parallel or alternate reality.

Therefore, it is important to be precise in the usage of these terms, and to consider their implications in any analysis or discussion of temporal phenomena.

To top it all off into a final statement, that describes the Ocean Between as a “hyperspace”, one that Maleficent banished Pete to.

It is asserted with a high degree of conviction that the term in question is not adequately explained within the context of its canonicity. It is essential to have a clear and accurate understanding of the terms used within the canon of this verse. The failure to provide a clear explanation of a term within the context of canonicity raises significant concerns regarding the validity and usefulness of the term in the analysis of the fictional universe in question.

As such, it is imperative that any claims or arguments made in relation to the term are supported by an understanding of the canonicity of the works in question, to ensure the credibility of the analysis.

Subsequently, all that travel through the Ocean Between get an Immeasurable Speed rating. Examples of this include Ventus, from Birth by Sleep, actively fighting one of Vanitas’ weaker Unversed, whilst traveling between worlds. Terra replicates this feat, too, and utilizing that exact same glider in combat, against Sora. These aren’t a one off-feats either, as again, the Director’s Report asserts a Gummi Ship is used to travel through the Ocean Between, in which Sora and co. can fight in it.

I express with the utmost conviction that I completely disagree with the assertion that the current concept under examination is indicative of infinite speed.

 

[Bobsican]

It is asserted with a high degree of conviction that the term in question is not adequately explained within the context of its canonicity. It is essential to have a clear and accurate understanding of the terms used within the canon of this verse. The failure to provide a clear explanation of a term within the context of canonicity raises significant concerns regarding the validity and usefulness of the term in the analysis of the fictional universe in question. As such, it is imperative that any claims or arguments made in relation to the term are supported by an understanding of the canonicity of the works in question, to ensure the credibility of the analysis.

The "hyperspace" statement comes from the KH Character Files book, which is fully licensed from Disney and Square Enix, the former which also owns KH (the latter the the main developer), so I'd say it's very solid as the lore being used here from it doesn't conflict with other known details in the series.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The concept of hyperspace has various definitions in scientific literature and popular culture. It is important to note that in order to fully understand the context of this concept as it is presented in the series in question (canonically as it should be introduced in the series), it is necessary to determine which specific definition of hyperspace is being utilized.

I acknowledge that the individual identified as @Everything12 may have a valid perspective on this issue, and it would be beneficial to consider their thoughts and arguments in relation to this matter.