Infinite Speed and Range.

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I was given permission to make this. This is a three part discussion, one for infinite speed, and another for immeasurable, and third one for dimensional travel. To save headache and clear things up, I will be focusing this thread on infinite speed.

Background: So Sailor Moon recently lost it's infinite speed rating for the feat of Sailor Moon's crystal's light, lighting up the infinite universe and going beyond the universe and lighting up places outside time and space.

The feat in question did happen. Everyone agreed the universe was infinite. Everyone agreed the infinite space was traversed by the light. Yet, the Sailor Moon universe lost it's rating because it was decided that this was a "Range" feat and not applicable to speed.

There are other verses who have the similar feats that have Infinite speed ratings for these feats. For example, Necrozma for lighting up the UltraSpace which is likely Infinite. And Helios (God of War) lighting up the Underworld which is said to be infinite. In that thread it said that such verses would be reviewed and possibly lose their ratings if they don't have any other feats.

My issue with this is that, this is not in the current standards of the wiki, and is not listed as an actual rule.

On infinite speed the wiki says this:

(Able to travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below.)

On attack speed:

The speed at which an attack moves. For example, X character is hypersonic, but he can do an attack that is a natural beam of light, the speed for the attack is different from the speed of the user, hence the attack would be lightspeed even if its user isn't.

If a character's light beam, or projectile, or energy blast can cover an infinite distance in a finite time then that that light beam, projectile, or energy blast has infinite speed. No where on the page says that if a character's power can spread across an infinite area, that feat cannot be used for speed and must be used as a range.

It seems to be a based off another unofficial speed rule: The rule that states characters cannot gain speed ratings from destroying infinite structures. Such as, destroying an infinite universe shouldn't give you infinite speed as that means, every character who is 2-A is infinite. While this rule is not written in the speed page, I understand it's usage and it should be added officially on the page.

This range rule, I believe is good for abilities that don't necessary have projections or emissions. Such as, a character who can manipulate a mind that is infinite distance away. A character who can erase an object that's infinite distance away. Or even a character that can use telekinesis on a character that is infinite way. These abilities seem to work like teleportation. They don't have components that are physically traveling through space. They work at remote locations. Light feats do not fit in this category.

Light feats start from a single point, the character. (In Sailor Moon's case, her crystal) and then travel out through space. You can physically see and track the light as it travels. There is no remote action going on.

So I propose these unofficial rules be made official and put on the speed page, to clear up confusion. But light feats don't fit under this rule and should not be discounted for speed feats under it.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Planck69 @CrimsonStarFallen @DemonGodMitchAubin @Elizhaa @UchihaSlayer96 Your input would be useful here.

 

[KLOL506]

I myself definitely agree that lighting-up feats like Sailor Moon's, Helios' and Necrozma's should definitely not be discounted from qualifying as speed feats (Considering it's their own power), especially if there are people that can react to said feats or blatantly outpace and outmanuever them, as is the case with Helios and those outpacing his light beams consistently (Namely Hermes who dodges Helios' decapitated head's charged sunlight burst), and considering that he isn't exactly destroying anything (Not that it's a deducting point), only lighting up the Underworld (I assume the case is the same for Sailor Moon and that its feat is similar in nature). Even if there's no evidence that the character themselves scale to the attack, the attack itself should be fine to be designated as a speed feat.

As for destroying infinite structures, they are usually kept as range feats simply because of the question of outliers and inconsistencies with other speed feats in the series, hence the scrutiny. But if the intent is made explicitly clear as to whether such an attack can be dodged, outpaced or outmaneuvered, I see no reason to assume it wouldn't scale. But yes, extreme scrutiny should be applied when it comes to obtaining speed from destruction decimating everything within a certain amount of distance or physically consuming everything within said distance.

However,

It seems to be a based off another unofficial speed rule: The rule that states characters cannot gain speed ratings from destroying infinite structures. Such as, destroying an infinite universe shouldn't give you infinite speed as that means, every character who is 2-A is infinite. While this rule is not written in the speed page, I understand it's usage and it should be added officially on the page.

Once again, this is a misconception, it's not because every single character would become 2-A (That would completely butcher the meaning of powerscaling), but mostly because inconsistencies with the feats of the verse or whether it could be outliers or somesuch if there simply isn't enough context or explanation behind said feat. Hence, such feats should always be met with extreme scrutiny.

This range rule, I believe is good for abilities that don't necessary have projections or emissions. Such as, a character who can manipulate a mind that is infinite distance away. A character who can erase an object that's infinite distance away. Or even a character that can use telekinesis on a character that is infinite way. These abilities seem to work like teleportation. They don't have components that are physically traveling through space. They work at remote locations. Light feats do not fit in this category.

I'd argue the "physical components physically travelling through space" is the better argument to justify supporting feats being speed feats for covering a certain amount of distance, it does the job much better than the "remote locations" argument. But yeah, non-physical interactions like Mind Manip, Existence Erasure or Telekinesis and the like should not qualify for this, since I'd argue they lack the aspect of speed by bypassing the middle-man (That being distance, sorry if I butchered the wording) unlike in an explosion or light beams lighting up a certain area where there is a distance to travel.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But if the intent is made explicitly clear as to whether such an attack can be dodged, outpaced or outmaneuvered, I see no reason to assume it wouldn't scale. But yes, extreme scrutiny should be applied when it comes to obtaining speed from destruction decimating everything within a certain amount of distance or physically consuming everything within said distance.

I personally feel like in the rare case that a character can outspeed a AOE destructive attack, like an explosion or an expanding energy ball, that is spreading across an infinite structure, it should count as infinite speed. But that's more because that character themselves are moving across that infinite distance as well and less than the attack spreading an infinite distance. The only example I can think of at the moment is Flash outrunning the destruction of the multiverse. But it would be very difficult to see this ratings for attacks that are HIgh 3-A or 2-A that aren't AOE but are targeted like a beam or blast (if the character that is attacking doesn't have any other infinite speed feats).

 

[KLOL506]

I personally feel like in the rare case that a character can outspeed a AOE destructive attack, like an explosion or an expanding energy ball, that is spreading across an infinite structure, it should count as infinite speed. But that's more because that character themselves are moving across that infinite distance as well and less than the attack spreading an infinite distance.

You don't necessarily need to outspeed it or cross the infinite distance the attack was designed to cover or destroy to qualify, outmaneuvering or dodging it entirely also works. Outspeeding is just one of the ways to qualify for it I believe.

But it would be very difficult to see this ratings for attacks that are HIgh 3-A or 2-A that aren't AOE but are targeted like a beam or blast (if the character that is attacking doesn't have any other infinite speed feats).

It really shouldn't matter if the attack is the same exact attack. I'd say this problem would apply explicitly if the attack used as a targeted beam/blast functions differently from the AOE attack or is not the same thing as the AOE attack but just focused.

Take Helios's case for example. Him passively lighting up the Underworld while being incapacitated and wielded by Atlas's fist (And weakened as a result) is no different than him lighting himself up to attack Kratos, same with Kratos in turn using his decapitated head to light up (And potentially destroy) everything around him (And ironically they are all AoE attacks). They're all the same exact light emitted from Helios's own body (And head). He does not differentiate with his attacks.

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that such feats (lighting up an infinite space from a single point and others like it) are blatantly Infinite Speed, considering that they do the textbook definition of the ratings definition.

Like, I feel like calling it range seems to just be a cop-out by people who for one reason or another have problems with a character's speed being rated that high.

Of course, it would purely be range if no travel component to a power is specified or showcased but I feel that it sort of goes without saying as logically, something that isn't travelling doesn't have a speed.

TL;DR This feels more like an issue with people's interpretation of very clear terms than something that needs changing in the rules themselves to me.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that such feats are blatantly Infinite Speed, considering that they do the textbook definition of the ratings definition.

Like, I feel like calling it range seems to just be a cop-out by people who for one reason or another have problems with a character's speed being rated that high.

Of course, it would purely be range if no travel component to a power is specified or showcased but I feel that it sort of goes without saying as logically, something that isn't travelling doesn't have a speed.

TL;DR This feels more like an issue with people's interpretation of very clear terms than something that needs changing in the rules themselves to me.

Pretty much my sentiments regarding this matter.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Planck69 has pretty much relayed my thoughts on this perfectly.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You don't necessarily need to outspeed it or cross the infinite distance the attack was designed to cover or destroy to qualify, outmaneuvering or dodging it entirely also works. Outspeeding is just one of the ways to qualify for it I believe.


It really shouldn't matter if the attack is the same exact attack. I'd say this problem would apply explicitly if the attack used as a targeted beam/blast functions differently from the AOE attack or is not the same thing as the AOE attack but just focused.

Take Helios's case for example. Him passively lighting up the Underworld while being incapacitated and wielded by Atlas's fist (And weakened as a result) is no different than him lighting himself up to attack Kratos, same with Kratos in turn using his decapitated head to light up (And potentially destroy) everything around him (And ironically they are all AoE attacks). They're all the same exact light emitted from Helios's own body (And head). He does not differentiate with his attacks.

I see what you're getting at.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

Your help would be very appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is what Medeus said earlier. I agree with him.

 

[Vietthai96]

View attachment 239
Here is what Medeus said earlier. I agree with him.

Actually iirc, this comment was long ago, we can see the Synop badge

But anyway i will response to this comment. By all mean, while what DDM is said is not wrong, it is just the effect of Infinite speed and Immeasurable speed user when they using the speed and their perspective on the surrounding. Infinite speed user is so fast that their perception of time = 0, and Immeasurable speed user is so fast that even infinite speed user will be frozen in their eyes. However it is not a strict, mandatory requirement to get those speed rating, due to the inconsistency in almost every fiction in their portrayal of speed, even with finite speed rating like FTL to MFTL. Well it is not related much to the issue of this topic, what OP want is the clear standard on how we get Infinite speed rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, infinite speed is supposed to have quite strict requirements and be hard to reach, in order to avoid very unreliable information and automatically scaling all tier 2 characters and above, who have fought other beings on their level, to the rating, regardless if it is remotely consistent with what has otherwise been shown and stated or not.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, infinite speed is supposed to have quite strict requirements and be hard to reach, in order to avoid very unreliable information and automatically scaling all tier 2 characters and above, who have fought other beings on their level, to the rating, regardless if it is remotely consistent with what has otherwise been shown and stated or not.

Nah, no one going to scaling all High 3-A or tier 2 and above automatically to infinite speed. This thread want to talk about the issue with omnidirectional attack that physically spread out and cover infinite sized area in finite time. Right now admittedly we have some inconsistency in treating these feats is either range or speed

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but that is basically a requirement in order to be able to destroy infinitely large universes or multiverses in the first place...

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, but that is basically a requirement in order to be able to destroy infinitely large universes or multiverses in the first place...

Well, what needed is travelling time is finite and travelling distance is infinite. Destroying multiverse/universe or not is irrelevant, what mattered the most is it spreading and cover the entire multiverse/universe in finite amount of time.

 

[God900]

Well, what needed is travelling time is finite and travelling distance is infinite. Destroying multiverse/universe or not is irrelevant, what mattered the most is it spreading and cover the entire multiverse/universe in finite amount of time.

Viet, this is made cuz of your thread, most likely.

 

[Vietthai96]

Viet, this is made cuz of your thread, most likely.

You mean my DBH speed thread??, but that thread is not even reach to a conclusion. But i doubt it is about my thread. Anyway this not related to the matter at hand

 

[God900]

Anyways, regarding the OP lighting up an infinite space seems more like range feat at hand. Becouse, even if it's made by your own energy, there is actually no proof to say that energy Ball scales to your physical speed, I understand that's a logical assumption, but still an assumption.

And then, if you are able to "dodge" that omnidirectional blast on a "infinite space"...., that just proofs you have Infinite reaction speed, but not necessarily attack or combat speed.
Saying that you have enough speed to outspeed it, even if you didn't show the feat on paper is a blatant assumption and thus we can't really scale it to the full speed.

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyways, regarding the OP lighting up an infinite space seems more like range feat at hand. Becouse, even if it's made by your own energy, there is actually no proof to say that energy Ball scales to your physical speed, that is a logical assumption, but still an assumption.

Physical or magical, speed is still speed, they move through a distance with a timeframe, still speed. You can dismiss the overall speed of the character who perform the attack, but ignore the speed of the attack itself is a bad logic

And then, if you are able to "dodge" that omnidirectional blast on a "infinite space"...., that just proofs you have Infinite reaction speed, but not necessarily attack or combat speed.
Saying that you have enough speed to outspeed it, even if you didn't show the feat on paper is a blatant assumption and thus we can't really scale it to the full speed

Dodging require you to react to an attack and then dodge it, if you don't have the neccessary speed, you can't dodge the attack no matter what

 

[KLOL506]

Anyways, regarding the OP lighting up an infinite space seems more like range feat at hand. Becouse, even if it's made by your own energy, there is actually no proof to say that energy Ball scales to your physical speed, I understand that's a logical assumption, but still an assumption.

Yeah no, can't agree with that. Lighting up an infinite speed literally satisfies the textbook definition of Infinite Speed as Planck just stated.

And then, if you are able to "dodge" that omnidirectional blast on a "infinite space"...., that just proofs you have Infinite reaction speed, but not necessarily attack or combat speed.

I think you need to properly read what "dodging" and "reacting" are. Reacting is being able to allow your neurons fire off at the mere sight of the attack to be able to easily recognize the attack, dodging requires you to move entire body parts to counter the attack, that's textbook combat speed, outpacing it altogether to a safe distance is movement speed through and through.

Saying that you have enough speed to outspeed it, even if you didn't show the feat on paper is a blatant assumption

That's why... you have to show that you can outspeed the attack itself? Doesn't mean you have to actually cover an infinite distance to do so.

and thus we can't really scale it to the full speed.

Uhhhhh... what?

 

[God900]

Physical or magical, speed is still speed, they move through a distance with a timeframe, still speed. You can dismiss the overall speed of the character who perform the attack, but ignore the speed of the attack itself is a bad logic

Yes, but that doesn't mean it scales to the full combat speed of the character.
For example; let's say I can throw a baseball ball faster than a car running at 120 KM/H, well, it doesn't mean that physically I can run faster than said car, nor my travel speed would compare.

Dodging require you to react to an attack and then dodge it, if you don't have the neccessary speed, you can't dodge the attack no matter what

No, reaction speed and attack speed are different.

Yes, you have enough speed to react, but doesn't mean you have enough speed to actually travel through space, or attack with your bare hands at said speed.
That's why we don't assume all FTL characters have constant FTL travel speed, unless it's shown they does.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it scales to the full combat speed of the character.

'Kay and? That means nothing against the attack itself.

For example; let's say I can't throw a baseball ball faster than a car running at 120 KM/H can run, well, it doesn't mean that physically I can run faster than said car, nor my travel speed would compare.

That's why... you need to show you can outrun the speeding ball itself, or at least quickstep alongside it?

No, reaction speed and attack speed are different.

And yet you confused "dodging" with "reacting". Even though dodging is text-book "combat speed".

Yes, you have enough speed to react, but doesn't mean you have enough speed to actually travel through space, or attack with your bare hands at said speed.
That's we don't assume all FTL characters have constant FTL travel speed, unless it's shown they does.

Literally all of that is moot if the character is actually shown to then outpace the attack itself. You don't need anything else beyond that point.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably best if we keep this policy-deciding staff forum thread as staff only to avoid spam.

 

[God900]

Kay and? That means nothing against the attack itself.

You have to literally proof your body can attack at said speed, not just react.

That's why... you need to show you can outrun the speeding ball itself, or at least quickstep alongside it?

Yes, but that doesn't translate into "my punches are now faster than that speeding ball becouse I can react to it".....,you need feats that dictate so, or else it would stay as a reaction speed feat.

And yet you confused "dodging" with "reacting".

Well, in order to dodge, it requires you react.

When a character evades an attack, the "reaction" and "dodging" factor, both come in play.

You can't dodge without reacting and vice versa.

Literally all of that is moot if the character is actually shown to then outpace the attack itself. You don't need anything else beyond that point.

Again, if with "outpace" you mean, having enough speed to react, that's fine, but else doesn't translate into full combat speed.
We need the character to actually outrun the technique in a way, with like, punches, or any attack, to actually give the full speed value.

Example: Let's say that you luckily were able to evade a speeding ball coming at your face, Well, it doesn't mean you can punch and Kick as fast or even faster than the ball does.

 

[KLOL506]

You have to literally proof your body can attack at said speed, not just react.

DUDE.

What part of "moving your body part to counter the attack" do you see as a "react" feat?

Yes, but that doesn't translate into "my punches are now faster than that speeding ball becouse I can react to it".....,you need feats that dictate so, or else it would stay as a reaction speed feat.

Moving a body part to counter a ball is pretty blatantly a combat speed feat. Please kindly read the Combat Speed and Reactions pages for starters.

Well, in order to dodge, it requires you react.

When a character evades an attack, the "reaction" and "dodging" factor, both come in play.

You can't dodge without reacting and vice versa.

And? You're still countering the attack, moving your body in tandem to avoid harm coming to your face. Moving your body to evade something is blatant combat speed through and through.

Again, if with "outpace" you mean, having enough speed to react, that's fine, but else doesn't translate into full combat speed.
We need the character to actually outrun the technique in a way, with like, punches, or any attack, to actually give the full speed value.

Did you seriously think I meant "react" by "outpace"? I meant literally outrunning/outmaneuvering the attack on your own two legs as it approaches you in a blast or beam or similar.

Example: Let's say that you luckily were able to evade a speeding ball coming at your face, Well, it doesn't mean you can punch and Kick as fast or even faster than the ball does.

I don't think you get how combat speed works here bud.

Combat speed is your capacity to evade shit within a given timeframe. Reactions, are in an essence, timeframes.

 

[Planck69]

Anyways, regarding the OP lighting up an infinite space seems more like range feat at hand. Becouse, even if it's made by your own energy, there is actually no proof to say that energy Ball scales to your physical speed, I understand that's a logical assumption, but still an assumption.

What? What does the scaling to physicals have anything to do with the speed of the attack? Since when was that ever a factor in whether or not a feat qualified as speed?

And then, if you are able to "dodge" that omnidirectional blast on a "infinite space"...., that just proofs you have Infinite reaction speed, but not necessarily attack or combat speed.
Saying that you have enough speed to outspeed it, even if you didn't show the feat on paper is a blatant assumption and thus we can't really scale it to the full speed.

What relevance does this even have as to whether or not the feat is speed or range?

Like, I feel like people are dropping in and just automatically assuming they understand the thread without even looking at the feat in question.

 

[God900]

I don't think you get how combat speed works here bud.

Combat speed is your capacity to evade shit within a given timeframe. Reactions, are in an essence, timeframes.

Yeah, I know, but I'm quite iffy on how we are actually treating this.

Just becouse you can evade attacks doesn't necessarily mean you can attack as fast as the enemy punches coming at you.

Also, there are some profiles in which a character evading stuff is actually treated as reaction speed.

Nevermind.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, I know, but I'm quite iffy on how we are actually treating this.

Just becouse you can evade attacks doesn't necessarily mean you can attack as fast as the enemy punches coming at you.

You being able to move your body parts at those speeds without exerting yourself means exactly that. Being able to fight at those speeds as well.

Also, there are some profiles in which a character evading stuff is actually treated as reaction speed.

Because those examples are usually their absolute peaks they can't afford to maintain at all times either due to stamina issues or due to their bodies being unable to handle such speeds or some other reason.

Also reactions on their own are meaningless, our definition for Reactions is literally timeframes, not a meter-per-second value, that'd be handled by combat speed.

 

[KLOL506]

What? What does the scaling to physicals have anything to do with the speed of the attack? Since when was that ever a factor in whether or not a feat qualified as speed?

What relevance does this even have as to whether or not the feat is speed or range?

Yeah, whether a character has enough justification to scale to the attack or not means ****-all for the attack itself.

 

[God900]

What? What does the scaling to physicals have anything to do with the speed of the attack? Since when was that ever a factor in whether or not a feat qualified as speed?

What relevance does this even have as to whether or not the feat is speed or range?

Like, I feel like people are dropping in and just automatically assuming they understand the thread without even looking at the feat in question.

Well, seems that you guys agree that, "X character can light up an infinite space, then the character can freely move wherever wants with it's punches, reaction speed and attack speed"......, I mean you are just giving the character the full speed value based on energy feats not made by the own physicals of said character.

I agree that's a speed feat, but it doesn't necessarily have to scale to the full combat speed of the character.

 

[God900]

You being able to move your body parts at those speeds without exerting yourself means exactly that. Being able to fight at those speeds as well.

I beg to differ in this point, it doesn't always work like this. Without feats this just pure speculation.

I understand your point, but that's just theorazing on something that's not been proven.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, seems that you guys agree that, "X character can light up an infinite space, then the character can freely move wherever wants with it's punches, reaction speed and attack speed"......, I mean you are just giving the character the full speed value based on energy feats not made by the own physicals of said character.

I think you completely misunderstood the point here.

We were more so talking about this:

Character A lights up an infinite-sized universe with just his presence while incapacitated and weakened. Character A then shines his light against Character B with the same exact light in the same AOE manner but Character B can easily outpace Character A's blasts and proceeds to absolutely shitcan Character A. Character B then uses A's head as a light-up torch and unsuccessfully uses it against Character C, who laughs off the blasts and outruns it every time you try to use it against him.

I agree that's a speed feat, but it doesn't necessarily have to scale to the full combat speed of the character.

Aaaaaaaaand we're not talking about scaling to the primary character responsible for the attack just like that, we're talking about secondary characters dodging that exact primary character's attacks that cover an infinite-sized area. Seems like you forgot the most important aspect of the attack altogether.

 

[KLOL506]

I'll give you a better example. The BOG feat.

Goku and Beerus create a massive Energy Ball that threatens to shitcan the universe. The explosion comes from Beerus' side and Goku doesn't have much time to do but go against the attack and nullify it with his own strength after charging into it.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, did you just seriously think Character A would scale to lighting-up-the-universe-feat all by himself without having powerscaling do the work for him in one degree or another?

 

[God900]

I'll give you a better example. The BOG feat.

Goku and Beerus create a massive Energy Ball that threatens to shitcan the universe. The explosion comes from Beerus' side and Goku doesn't have much time to do but go against the attack and nullify it with his own strength after charging into it.

Fair enough. This a case by case issue, but I already knew BOG was qualified for this

 

[Planck69]

Well, seems that you guys agree that, "X character can light up an infinite space, then the character can freely move wherever wants with it's punches, reaction speed and attack speed"......, I mean you are just giving the character the full speed value based on energy feats not made by the own physicals of said character.

I agree that's a speed feat, but it doesn't necessarily have to scale to the full combat speed of the character.

No, we agree it's an Infinite Speed feat for the light. That's it.

At what point does the matter of scaling even come up earlier in this thread?

"I agree with the thread but it doesn't necessarily apply to something that currently isn't being discussed at all" is that last sentence.

 

[God900]

No, we agree it's an Infinite Speed feat for the light. That's it.

At what point does the matter of scaling even come up earlier in this thread?

"I agree with the thread but it doesn't necessarily apply to something that currently isn't being discussed at all" is that last sentence.

Fair enough

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait for the other staff members that I called for earlier please.

 

[Planck69]

I suppose we should.

Is there anything left at this point though? Unless we're somehow revising the basic premise of Infinite Speed, the OP is right in that such feats are indeed Infinite.

And the whataboutisms I've seen in this thread and others are rather silly. Even if half of 2-A somehow ends up scaling, fine. That just means they scale. Any issues like consistency and such are issues within the setting not with the logic itself.

No problem with waiting for more staff but I feel the above really needed to be said.