Kenny Omega Supernatural Willpower CRT

[RandomGuy2345]

Yes. A professional wrestler is about to have Supernatural Willpower. Cry about it.

So I had a discussion with @DemonicDude and @Duedate8898 about this, and we all came to a conclusion that Kenny Omega should have Supernatural Willpower via these reasons:

1. His incredible stamina will allows him to fight even after having every ounce of energy being shredded after being in torture hold (Full clip) with commentator saying he was lacerating from that chair being broken on the skull and Jericho was going split him in two then procced to get up a hit Jericho with full speed 2 Trigger that causes his mouth to bleed
   
   
2. During Kenny Omega's "The belt collector" run in AEW he was already suffering from several injuries yet kept the AEW title for 346 and AAA Mega title for 765 days but in the end had to vacate them as he has been suffering from vertigo (1:14), shoulder injury, a hernia and a leg/knee injury since past three years but kept performing and went through a plasma injury to recover bone damage.
   
   
3. Survived going head first into a glass table being launched on a thic wooden table and kept continue to fight and going through jumping tombstone piledrivers head first on the mat, Went through thumbtacks, glass shards, Solid wooden floor and wire bed along with chair shot on the head with full force that broke the chair on his skull in half.

A simple enough CRT. Hopefully.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

@DemonicDude you owe me big time for this.

 

[DemonicDude]

@DemonicDude you owe me big time for this.

You own my life.

 

[Pikaman]

I’ll need more time to analyse scans, but off the points here alone I guess this works

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Hopefully this CRT doesn't awaken the goon in me.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, type 2 Immortality looks good

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Yeah, type 2 Immortality looks good

 

[DemonicDude]

Yeah, type 2 Immortality looks good

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

1. Why whould that random comment be taken as he literally having zero stamina but still being able to move instead of just the normal 'he is super tired (like anyone after struggle with techniques like that [a boston crab/gyaku-ebi-gatame/ryo-ashi-hishigi in this case] in a combat)'? Like, I don't see what is supposed to be supernatural of this.
2. That is impressive but, aside of be an stamina feat, it wasn't like he didn't had time to rest between his matches and receive some treatment, and the vertigo thing I already commented in a previous thread how that isn't a condition that always affect and individual and rarely activate (I even pointed how Kenny himself said to lear the trigger of his vertigo and how he countered it).
3. That is durability, like from what he scale currently (6.707 Megajoules) those things shouldn't even hurt him as much as you believe.

The page of Supernatural Willpower state the following:

Supernatural Willpower is the ability to exceed one's own limits through sheer willpower to a degree extremely far beyond real human standards.

Although some characters can be considered to have a great will to achieve their goals or give their all in a fight, characters that have a willpower on this level can go vastly beyond what should logically be possible for them, with more extreme cases being able to oppose natural phenomena such as death.

Characters with this ability may be able to resist enormous amounts of pain, act even when unconscious or well beyond what they should be able to endure, resist possession and mind control, affect their environment, or even go against natural phenomena, such as death or the limits imposed by reality.

Note: This ability should only be given to characters that have explicitly displayed far beyond human levels of mental endurance. This may have been demonstrated in the form of a highly reliable statement or a significant event. An example of the latter would be Roronoa Zoro taking in all of Monkey D. Luffy's pain at once.

Kenny don't fulfill the requirements, he haven't endured pain far beyond what humans can withstand.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

1. Why whould that random comment be taken as he literally having zero stamina but still being able to move instead of just the normal 'he is super tired (like anyone after struggle with techniques like that [a boston crab/gyaku-ebi-gatame/ryo-ashi-hishigi in this case] in a combat)'? Like, I don't see what is supposed to be supernatural of this.
2. That is impressive but, aside of be an stamina feat, it wasn't like he didn't had time to rest between his matches and receive some treatment, and the vertigo thing I already commented in a previous thread how that isn't a condition that always affect and individual and rarely activate (I even pointed how Kenny himself said to lear the trigger of his vertigo and how he countered it).
3. That is durability, like from what he scale currently (6.707 Megajoules) those things shouldn't even hurt him as much as you believe.

The page of Supernatural Willpower state the following:

Kenny don't fulfill the requirements, he haven't endured pain far beyond what humans can withstand.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, from memory this was also rejected in the past with the same reason (iirc an staff, I think Ant, told you that to get SW with pain tolerance you need Zoro levels of pain endurance, and you literally said rip)

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I mean, from memory this was also rejected in the past with the same reason (iirc an staff, I think Ant, told you that to get SW with pain tolerance you need Zoro levels of pain endurance, and you literally said rip)

No. These feats in particular were never rejected.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Found the thread and was Saman who told you that this isn't enough:

Meh, this isn't still nearly enough and fit perfectly in the range of peak/Superhuman stamina.

To earn supernatural willpower by withstanding pain, you need bonkers feats such as those from Berserk or Baki, where people keep moving and fighting despite having their body almost completely destroyed.

Supernatural Willpower is very broad in origin and usage, usually you get it from people resisting or causing hax, and then it can be easily classified as Supernatural.

To distinguish it from plain stamina (bearing in mind the two go along, instead of excluding each other), you need to have a character who's so f*cking determined by a goal to reach, they push through what should be impossible to endure even with superhuman stamina.

We don't give the power to people who withstanding tearing their arms off, none WWE ever reaches the requirements for the simple facy you can put the wrestlers through so far.

It's not a matter of pushing through something that should KO you, it's pushing through lethal injuries that wreck your body to a point it would be mechanically impossible to function.

If his head was cracked open like a melon then yes, but if he wasn't even suffering then it becomes immort type 2.

If it was a simple concussion, then it's once again just stamina and dura

Nothing have changed, they still don't reach the level needed.

 

[DemonicDude]

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'm not a Kenny Omega/AEW/NJPW expert like DD is, but I'll try my best here:

1. Why whould that random comment be taken as he literally having zero stamina but still being able to move instead of just the normal 'he is super tired (like anyone after struggle with techniques like that [a boston crab/gyaku-ebi-gatame/ryo-ashi-hishigi in this case] in a combat)'? Like, I don't see what is supposed to be supernatural of this.

That "random comment" actually fits the context of the situation. Chris Jericho put Kenny in multiple torture holds for a prolonged period (after an already lengthy amount of fighting prior to this mind you) to the point where Kenny literally had to use the referee as leverage to force Jericho to break the hold. Of course, not everything the commentators say should be taken as legit (I've admittedly made this mistake a handful of times), but the statement commentary made in this situation in particular makes sense when you look at the context behind what they said. Kenny being able to move doesn't debunk this statement. Ever heard of the phrase "Running on fumes"?

1. That is impressive but, aside of be an stamina feat, it wasn't like he didn't had time to rest between his matches and receive some treatment, and the vertigo thing I already commented in a previous thread how that isn't a condition that always affect and individual and rarely activate (I even pointed how Kenny himself said to lear the trigger of his vertigo and how he countered it).

1. The "Oh, he got hit with this move and rested for 15 seconds, so it's not that impressive" logic doesn't work here due to the fact that Kenny was suffering from multiple injuries throughout the 2 years he was fighting. Using <30 second rest intervals in between matches as a counterargument won't work here.

2. The receiving treatment argument would be valid if there was any shown evidence that Omega was receiving any sort of treatment throughout that 2 year run, which I haven't seen yet.

1. That is durability, like from what he scale currently (6.707 Megajoules) those things shouldn't even hurt him as much as you believe.

Technically, yes. Kenny going through wooden tables, as well as surviving jumping tombstone piledrivers are all durability feats. However, being sent through glass and getting slammed onto thumbtacks are objectively stamina feats, as those can cut through or even get stuck on skin, which can cause severe amounts of bleeding, let alone getting suplexed onto god damn barbed wire.

Also, I might be wrong here, but doesn't durability somewhat tie into a characters' stamina? Kenny surviving all of those things is certainly a durability feat, but to continue on fighting despite taking all of that damage is without a doubt a stamina feat. Like, a pro wrestler surviving getting slammed on the apron (the hardest part of the ring) is a durability feat, but it also counts as stamina because they can continue to fight on despite that. You see where I'm getting at?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

1. The "Oh, he got hit with this move and rested for 15 seconds, so it's not that impressive" logic doesn't work here due to the fact that Kenny was suffering from multiple injuries throughout the 2 years he was fighting. Using <30 second rest intervals in between matches as a counterargument won't work here.

Mentioning this just in case, but if you were referring to Kenny resting after every match he had when you said "It wasn't like he didn't had time to rest between matches", then you might have an argument, but Kenny didn't receive any treatment during that entire 2 year run (at least to my knowledge he hasn't).

 

[DemonicDude]

I'm not a Kenny Omega/AEW/NJPW expert like DD is, but I'll try my best here:


That "random comment"

Random comment to RandomGuy makes perfect sense

actually fits the context of the situation. Chris Jericho put Kenny in multiple torture holds for a prolonged period (after an already lengthy amount of fighting prior to this mind you) to the point where Kenny literally had to use the referee as leverage to force Jericho to break the hold. Of course, not everything the commentators say should be taken as legit (I've admittedly made this mistake a handful of times), but the statement commentary made in this situation in particular makes sense when you look at the context behind what they said. Kenny being able to move doesn't debunk this statement. Ever heard of the phrase "Running on fumes"?

Commentator is NJPW English ceommentary team member Don Callis former WWF wrestler.

Been part of NJPW commentary team since 2017. He is so credible that when Omega left the company in 2020 he joined in as he right hand men serving as his manger of both Omega and The Elite who the founder of ALL ELITE WRESTLING company itself.

• He has been in WWF as an active wrestler,
• Commentator in NJPW
• Manager in AEW and NJPW and Impact Wrestling
• Manges Omega and The Elite regularly on AEW as seen below

If this was some normal crook who has never been in the ring then you could dismiss him like Jimmy Smith or some random commentator but he has 2 decades worth of Professional Wrestling Journalism and commentary experience.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Random comment to RandomGuy makes perfect sense

Commentator is NJPW English ceommentary team member Don Callis former WWF wrestler.

Been part of NJPW commentary team since 2017. He is so credible that when Omega left the company in 2020 he joined in as he right hand men serving as his manger of both Omega and The Elite who the founder of ALL ELITE WRESTLING company itself.

• He has been in WWF as an active wrestler,
• Commentator in NJPW
• Manger in AEW and NJPW and Impact Wrestling
• Manges Omega and The Elite regularly on AEW as seen below

If this was some normal crook who has never been in the ring then you could dismiss him like Jimmy Smith or some random commentator but he has 2 decades worth of Professional Wrestling Journalism and commentary experience.

One thing we forget to mention is that a majority of commentators have decades of experience commentating on matches. Hell, some of the commentators were actually former wrestlers themselves, so it's safe to say they know their shit when it comes to wrestling.

Of course, not everything should be taken legitimately, but commentary is more often than not a credible source.

 

[DemonicDude]

One thing we forget to mention is that a majority of commentators have decades of experience commentating on matches. Hell, some of the commentators were actually former wrestlers themselves, so it's safe to say they know their shit when it comes to wrestling.

Of course, not everything should be taken legitimately, but commentary is more often than not a credible source.

True and Don Callis is not a comedy commentator either like for example some commnetators play the role of good guys (babyface )and some villains (heel) and then there is a third one who is more comedy like for example Jerry the king lawler or sometimes Booker T. This guy takes his job very professionally being the Corey Graves of NJPW and AEW since he actally names wrestling moves and techniques which these days some commentators don't. He is a serious guy so no reason to assume he's gonna be over exaggerating things.

 

[Duedate8898]

As I said when asked, I think Kenny qualifies for Supernatural Willpower. The entire bit of that fight in the first point places a lot of emphasis on him being under great duress and physical tormet and him powering through it. While of course since these are real people and all the acting is confined to things we can do as people, I see the emphasis placed on Kenny powering through and not giving up in face of the stress on his body is good enough for Supernatural Willpower.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

That "random comment" actually fits the context of the situation. Chris Jericho put Kenny in multiple torture holds for a prolonged period (after an already lengthy amount of fighting prior to this mind you) to the point where Kenny literally had to use the referee as leverage to force Jericho to break the hold. Of course, not everything the commentators say should be taken as legit (I've admittedly made this mistake a handful of times), but the statement commentary made in this situation in particular makes sense when you look at the context behind what they said. Kenny being able to move doesn't debunk this statement. Ever heard of the phrase "Running on fumes"?

Well, not random in the sense that it was a completely unreleated comment (because that wouldn't make senses as commentator) but more in the sense that there is no reason to take it extremely literally, it would be like taking a commentator saying 'x is dead tired' as 'x is literally dead from exhaustion', don't know if you see my point with that last example. The fact that he is able to move actually prove that he literally didn't had even a ounce of energy (which would be the result to take literally the comment), also pretty sure that irl fighters can move while in boston crab/gyaku-ebi-gatame/ryo-ashi-hishigi, not move a lot but a bit, like Kenny.

1. The "Oh, he got hit with this move and rested for 15 seconds, so it's not that impressive" logic doesn't work here due to the fact that Kenny was suffering from multiple injuries throughout the 2 years he was fighting. Using <30 second rest intervals in between matches as a counterargument won't work here.

2. The receiving treatment argument would be valid if there was any shown evidence that Omega was receiving any sort of treatment throughout that 2 year run, which I haven't seen yet.

Mentioning this just in case, but if you were referring to Kenny resting after every match he had when you said "It wasn't like he didn't had time to rest between matches", then you might have an argument, but Kenny didn't receive any treatment during that entire 2 year run (at least to my knowledge he hasn't).

I was talking about rest between matches since he isn't constantly fighting 24/7. After matches fighters receive medical treatment, and if you suddenly can't
walk straight and instead fall into a dresser and knock over a bunch of stuff you damn sure will go with a doctor to see what happens, maybe he didn't received specialized big treatments that would make him leave the ring for long periods of time, but that doesn't mean he didn't receive any treatment at all, even more considering how he himself knew that he needed treatment and tried to be careful with his health (things you can see in his comments in the pages linked here in this crt).

Technically, yes. Kenny going through wooden tables, as well as surviving jumping tombstone piledrivers are all durability feats. However, being sent through glass and getting slammed onto thumbtacks are objectively stamina feats, as those can cut through or even get stuck on skin, which can cause severe amounts of bleeding, let alone getting suplexed onto god damn barbed wire.

Also, I might be wrong here, but doesn't durability somewhat tie into a characters' stamina? Kenny surviving all of those things is certainly a durability feat, but to continue on fighting despite taking all of that damage is without a doubt a stamina feat. Like, a pro wrestler surviving getting slammed on the apron (the hardest part of the ring) is a durability feat, but it also counts as stamina because they can continue to fight on despite that. You see where I'm getting at?

Ok, and? If you acknowledge they are bot durability and stamina feats why bring them? Also, he didn't receive super heavy cuts that would put his life in danger and still fought (he received small cuts, something that don't kill you unless great veins are cut), if he received an fatal cut (like for example having his jugular cut) and still fought do to sheer will I could see SW, but that isn't the case here.

I can see the point of being stamina feats, but I don't see nowhere how that is remotely close to the levels of feats stated in the SW page (or in Saman comments) that would grant the ability.

As I said when asked, I think Kenny qualifies for Supernatural Willpower. The entire bit of that fight in the first point places a lot of emphasis on him being under great duress and physical tormet and him powering through it. While of course since these are real people and all the acting is confined to things we can do as people, I see the emphasis placed on Kenny powering through and not giving up in face of the stress on his body is good enough for Supernatural Willpower.

Yes, and no one said that he wasn't going through a lot of pain and physical tormet, however that level is in the realm of the realistically speaking humanly possible and nowhere is close to the feats stated to be needed in the SW page or in Saman comments. Just because they are real persons isn't a reason to be so lenient with them, precisely that was what made them have several ridiculous things accepted in the profiles, if they don't meet the level needed for an power then they just don't get it, as simple as that.

Also, the excuse of the confinement to things we can do as people don't work because 1) We accept the verse as fiction with fictional characters (literally the only reason why the verse is allowed, along with various of its wrestlers) 2) We accept that they can actually do things impossible to humans, Kenny himself for example is accepted as a cyborg that can stop time and travel in time (showcased in one of his videos), so they have the ability to really perfom things that humans can't (through the use of videos mainly), if despite that fact they don't showcase absurdly beyond human level feats that would grant SW then is entirely their fault, they have the means but don't use them like that

 

[DemonicDude]

But he was gonna be split in half via Lion Tamer. Walls of Jericho and Lion Tamer are both deadlier versions of the same move.

 

[Chariot190]

Disagree, supernatural willpower has to be ******* stupid. OP scans ain't it chief.

I agree to something like "Immense Willpower" tho, that should be fine, it's just supernatural will needs something blatantly inhuman, like for example, Bruno being able to fight and save Trish from Diavolo despite his spine punched out and nearly bisected, with it being pointed out his heart had actually been destroyed and the only reason he wasn't dead is through force of will.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Well, not random in the sense that it was a completely unreleated comment (because that wouldn't make senses as commentator) but more in the sense that there is no reason to take it extremely literally, it would be like taking a commentator saying 'x is dead tired' as 'x is literally dead from exhaustion', don't know if you see my point with that last example. The fact that he is able to move actually prove that he literally didn't had even a ounce of energy (which would be the result to take literally the comment), also pretty sure that irl fighters can move while in boston crab/gyaku-ebi-gatame/ryo-ashi-hishigi, not move a lot but a bit, like Kenny.

Uhh...no?

If a commentator said 'x wrestler is dead tired', no one, and I mean no one is going to interpret that as 'x wrestler is literally dead from exhaustion'. Also comparing someone dying to someone just being out of energy/stamina is a bit extreme don't ya think?

The explanation is quite simple:

Kenny's completely drained out of energy thanks to Jericho putting him in torture holds for a prolonged period of time. He then continues to fight despite this, as opposed to a normal human being, who wouldn't be able to go on due to every ounce of energy being drained out of them.

I don't understand the logic of "Kenny was moving, so it's obvious that the statement shouldn't be taken seriously". Kenny continuing to fight despite having every ounce of energy shredded from him is meant to be portrayed as something shocking/impressive. It's just like how the average generic shonen anime MC continuing to fight despite being at his/her limit, and the antagonist and/or the MCs companions being shocked/impressed by this.

Also, Kenny moving while in the boston crab submission caused his energy to drain even more. It wasn't supposed to contradict the statement the commentators made. Kenny used what little energy he had left to reach the ropes to break the hold, which then caused the commentators (with decades of experience commentating wrestling matchups mind you) to say what they said.

I was talking about rest between matches since he isn't constantly fighting 24/7. After matches fighters receive medical treatment, and if you suddenly can't
walk straight and instead fall into a dresser and knock over a bunch of stuff you damn sure will go with a doctor to see what happens, maybe he didn't received specialized big treatments that would make him leave the ring for long periods of time, but that doesn't mean he didn't receive any treatment at all, even more considering how he himself knew that he needed treatment and tried to be careful with his health (things you can see in his comments in the pages linked here in this crt).

So Omega after his 2 year run opened up about his injuries, and what happened when he was dealing with said injuries? That doesn't prove your point.

Also, without clear cut evidence, we can't just say "Oh. He must've been receiving some treatment, even if it was minor". That's a baseless assumption that has nothing to fall back on. Until you have clear, concrete evidence that Kenny was receiving any sort of treatment during that 2 year run, we'd have to say the following:

"Kenny continued fighting for 2 years straight despite suffering from x injuries", not "Kenny continued fighting for 2 years straight despite suffering from x injuries, wHeRE hE mIGhT'vE rECeIvED mInOR mEdICaL tREaTmENt ThROuGhOUt ThOsE 2 YEaRs".

All Kenny stated was that he knew he needed treatment, but he didn't go through with it until he realized he couldn't handle the pain anymore. There's nothing that ouright says he was taking treatment to minimize the pain. Trust me, he would've said it with no hesitation if he was taking treatment/medication.

But he was gonna be split in half via Lion Tamer. Walls of Jericho and Lion Tamer are both deadlier versions of the same move.

Okay. Now that's an exaggeration in a half.

Disagree, supernatural willpower has to be ******* stupid. OP scans ain't it chief.

I agree to something like "Immense Willpower" tho, that should be fine, it's just supernatural will needs something blatantly inhuman, like for example, Bruno being able to fight and save Trish from Diavolo despite his spine punched out and nearly bisected, with it being pointed out his heart had actually been destroyed and the only reason he wasn't dead is through force of will.

I feel like Immense Willpower should be an actual ability so it can contrast with Supernatural Willpower. There should be a difference between the following 3 things:

1. Very good stamina/solid threshold for pain.
2. Immense Willpower.
3. Supernatural Willpower.

Very good stamina is literally just what it says it is. Immense Willpower is something normal humans cannot fight on with, but doesn't quite reach Supernatural territory. And Supernatural Willpower should be something that is ridiculously insane for any person to continue fighting with.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Disagree, supernatural willpower has to be ******* stupid. OP scans ain't it chief.

I agree to something like "Immense Willpower" tho, that should be fine, it's just supernatural will needs something blatantly inhuman, like for example, Bruno being able to fight and save Trish from Diavolo despite his spine punched out and nearly bisected, with it being pointed out his heart had actually been destroyed and the only reason he wasn't dead is through force of will.

I mean, Immense Willpower isn't an ability the same way that Immense Pain Tolerance (one of the things that Kenny had listed in his P&A before I made a crt) isn't a power.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I mean, Immense Willpower isn't an ability the same way that Immense Pain Tolerance (one of the things that Kenny had listed in his P&A before I made a crt) isn't a power.

Sadly true, but I feel like there should be an ability that can contrast with Supernatural Willpower and someone with just very good stamina.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, Immense Willpower isn't an ability the same way that Immense Pain Tolerance (one of the things that Kenny had listed in his P&A before I made a crt) isn't a power.

Doesn't need to be, we have listed similar things before, we do similar things for weapon mastery, martial arts, etc where the character doesn't strictly qualify, but they still have some degree of skill, so we go "Proficient hand to hand combatant" for example.

If it works it works, it's better to index it and point out "hey this dude has some pretty wild will power" then ignore it. After all, that's what hotlinking is for and we are, after all, an indexing wiki, everything should be indexed, not just what fits our limited categories, because we def missing a b u n c h of shit (where's my money manip at????).

Unlike pain tolerance which goes into endurance, given that's literally what pain tolerance is, will power doesn't really fit anywhere else.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Doesn't need to be, we have listed similar things before, we do similar things for weapon mastery, martial arts, etc where the character doesn't strictly qualify, but they still have some degree of skill, so we go "Proficient hand to hand combatant" for example.

If it works it works, it's better to index it and point out "hey this dude has some pretty wild will power" then ignore it. After all, that's what hotlinking is for and we are, after all, an indexing wiki, everything should be indexed, not just what fits our limited categories, because we def missing a b u n c h of shit (where's my money manip at????).

Unlike pain tolerance which goes into endurance, given that's literally what pain tolerance is, will power doesn't really fit anywhere else.

If this is the case, then I can already think of a few wrestlers who fit this category.

Also Money Manipulation is based asf.

 

[Chariot190]

Don't get wild, going by your description, the last one is barely getting by, ignoring the chair bit because wow imagine tanking a chair and being 9-A.

Like I'd say the baseline for even attempting to list this would be something like Jotaro or Pol's wounds by the end of Dio's world (Jotaro had a handful of stab wounds, shattered ribs, collar bone and arm, and a bunch of extreme bruising and stuff). Or for a different example, Snake crawling through a literal microwave in MGS4.
Note, I am being generous here, only due to the last feat's repeated succession of events in a row, any one of those alone is like whatever.

Money manipulation is based asf, shovel knight and milagro man off the top of my head would have it and batman

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If a commentator said 'x wrestler is dead tired', no one, and I mean no one is going to interpret that as 'x wrestler is literally dead from exhaustion'. Also comparing someone dying to someone just being out of energy/stamina is a bit extreme don't ya think?

The explanation is quite simple:

Kenny's completely drained out of energy thanks to Jericho putting him in torture holds for a prolonged period of time. He then continues to fight despite this, as opposed to a normal human being, who wouldn't be able to go on due to every ounce of energy being drained out of them.

I don't understand the logic of "Kenny was moving, so it's obvious that the statement shouldn't be taken seriously". Kenny continuing to fight despite having every ounce of energy shredded from him is meant to be portrayed as something shocking/impressive. It's just like how the average generic shonen anime MC continuing to fight despite being at his/her limit, and the antagonist and/or the MCs companions being shocked/impressed by this.

Also, Kenny moving while in the boston crab submission caused his energy to drain even more. It wasn't supposed to contradict the statement the commentators made. Kenny used what little energy he had left to reach the ropes to break the hold, which then caused the commentators (with decades of experience commentating wrestling matchups mind you) to say what they said.

A irl human would be able to continue fighting after face torture holds (obviously a professionally trained person), need I to remind you what irl can and have endured? Because I can easily copy and paste the examples from the previous stamina crt to prove that Kenny isn't doing something beyond the human realm.

And if he literally had "every ounce of energy shredded" his energy (stamina in this case) would be zero, which mean that it would be impossible to move, and surprise a boston crab (the actual name of the move, not the fancy name Walls of Jericho) don't make people stamina go to zero. In the case of the shonen MC they also get power ups and all sort of supernatural things far beyond the case of WWE, so that example don't really work.

Cool, that isn't beyond human realm to the point that it could grant Supernatural Willpower.

So Omega after his 2 year run opened up about his injuries, and what happened when he was dealing with said injuries? That doesn't prove your point.

Also, without clear cut evidence, we can't just say "Oh. He must've been receiving some treatment, even if it was minor". That's a baseless assumption that has nothing to fall back on. Until you have clear, concrete evidence that Kenny was receiving any sort of treatment during that 2 year run, we'd have to say the following:

"Kenny continued fighting for 2 years straight despite suffering from x injuries", not "Kenny continued fighting for 2 years straight despite suffering from x injuries, wHeRE hE mIGhT'vE rECeIvED mInOR mEdICaL tREaTmENt ThROuGhOUt ThOsE 2 YEaRs".

All Kenny stated was that he knew he needed treatment, but he didn't go through with it until he realized he couldn't handle the pain anymore. There's nothing that ouright says he was taking treatment to minimize the pain. Trust me, he would've said it with no hesitation if he was taking treatment/medication.

You have prove that he didn't receive any sort of medical treatment at all of any sort as a professional fighter? Because if your claim is that he didn't cared enough for his life (which is directly proved that he did in the quotes of the pages linked in this crt) to receive a minimal amount of medical treatment at all despite all his money and the wounds that fighters sustain then fine, in that case we should reduce his intelligence rating to below average.

I feel like Immense Willpower should be an actual ability so it can contrast with Supernatural Willpower. There should be a difference between the following 3 things:

1. Very good stamina/solid threshold for pain.
2. Immense Willpower.
3. Supernatural Willpower.

Very good stamina is literally just what it says it is. Immense Willpower is something normal humans cannot fight on with, but doesn't quite reach Supernatural territory. And Supernatural Willpower should be something that is ridiculously insane for any person to continue fighting with.

No, that is super unnecessary and the stamina page already cover what you call Immense Willpower.

Doesn't need to be, we have listed similar things before, we do similar things for weapon mastery, martial arts, etc where the character doesn't strictly qualify, but they still have some degree of skill, so we go "Proficient hand to hand combatant" for example.

If it works it works, it's better to index it and point out "hey this dude has some pretty wild will power" then ignore it. After all, that's what hotlinking is for and we are, after all, an indexing wiki, everything should be indexed, not just what fits our limited categories, because we def missing a b u n c h of shit (where's my money manip at????).

Unlike pain tolerance which goes into endurance, given that's literally what pain tolerance is, will power doesn't really fit anywhere else.

No, that is an oversimplification, we list certain abilities under certain powers if they are similar enough for that, and literally Weapon Mastery and Martial Arts are the two abilities with more looser requirements in the wiki (reason to why several staffs have voiced the insatisfaction with how the ability is currently used but have also stated that that problem is already too rooted in the community to effectively correct it).

Supernatural Willpower have expecifically strict requirements about what is needed to grant the power, so it can't be given if is acknowledged that a character feats aren't enough.

The argument for Kenny Supernatural Willpower come from having a high(relatively speaking) pain endurace, so it directly fall in the stamina part (something already done in the profile).

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Don't get wild, going by your description, the last one is barely getting by, ignoring the chair bit because wow imagine tanking a chair and being 9-A.

He and almost all WWE supporters go wild if they aren't controled, so that's why one can't be lenient with this sort of thing.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Don't get wild, going by your description, the last one is barely getting by, ignoring the chair bit because wow imagine tanking a chair and being 9-A.

I wasn't the one who mentioned those feats in particular. Those are just supporting feats for all that I know. Go take this up with @DemonicDude not me.

Besides that chair thing, everything else looks good for "Immense Willpower" right?

Like I'd say the baseline for even attempting to list this would be something like Jotaro or Pol's wounds by the end of Dio's world (Jotaro had a handful of stab wounds, shattered ribs, collar bone and arm, and a bunch of extreme bruising and stuff). Or for a different example, Snake crawling through a literal microwave in MGS4.

So feats like the ones you just showed would fall under "Immense Willpower" or "Supernatural Willpower"?

He and almost all WWE supporters go wild if they aren't controled, so that's why one can't be lenient with this sort of thing.

Nah. Pikaman, who's been very critical of the proposals DD and I put out for the verse, even disagrees with some of the arguments you have made before in previous CRTs, but that's a conversation for another day.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Nah. Pikaman, who's been very critical of the proposals DD and I put out for the verse, even disagrees with some of the arguments you have made before in previous CRTs, but that's a conversation for another day.

I mean, iirc he have only disagree with the thing about finishers don't being higher ap (though I haven't don't an crt for that) and some of the skill feats that supposedly put them in the supernatural territory, the rest of the time he don't seem to actually oppose most of my proposals/comments.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I mean, iirc he have only disagree with the thing about finishers don't being higher ap (though I haven't don't an crt for that) and some of the skill feats that supposedly put them in the supernatural territory, the rest of the time he don't seem to actually oppose most of my proposals/comments.

Like I said. It's a conversation for another day.

 

[Chariot190]

No, that is an oversimplification, we list certain abilities under certain powers if they are similar enough for that,

Lad, it isn't an oversimplification because we literally do that. This isn't an oversimplification or an exaggeration, it just kinda be like it do.

and literally Weapon Mastery and Martial Arts are the two abilities with more looser requirements in the wiki (reason to why several staffs have voiced the insatisfaction with how the ability is currently used but have also stated that that problem is already too rooted in the community to effectively correct it).

Not my problem, double standards are double standards, and when it comes to things like that, we either allow it or not at all, point is we do in fact do that. This is no different, the character has shown extreme strength of will, and it should be indexed just like everything else.
Just because it doesn't meet, to be frank, completely arbitrary requirements that vary from person to person, profile to profile, and depending on who you ask this would meet requirements but others would say it doesn't like me and you (aka the power itself doesn't even have strict requirements, it has vague requirements), doesn't mean we should ignore it. Listing it not as supernatural, but listing it, all the same, is a compromise that appeases both camps and stays true to the ability's inane "requirements" but also true to our purpose as a wiki.

I'm going to have to ask you to completely remove that wording practice entirely, otherwise this argument has no merit because as it stands, we can, and very much do, index abilities but compromise by wording it as a step-down or what's accurate to the situation at hand. As long as we do that, at all, I see no reason to ignore these feats or this CRT.

Supernatural Willpower have expecifically strict requirements about what is needed to grant the power, so it can't be given if is acknowledged that a character feats aren't enough.

Arbitrary requirements, unfortunately, I can't budge on this, we must list this in some way, and failing to do so is even worse. I'd sooner agree with just listing it as supernatural willpower flat-out, than refusing to index it at all because at the very least it's getting indexed at some point.

The argument for Kenny Supernatural Willpower come from having a high(relatively speaking) pain endurace, so it directly fall in the stamina part (something already done in the profile).

That's untrue though, from what I could tell the argument is less he ignored the pain, and more the fact despite the injuries themselves he continued on.
In fact, isn't one such feat specifically about how he was at his limit, but continued on anyway?

 

[Chariot190]

He and almost all WWE supporters go wild if they aren't controled, so that's why one can't be lenient with this sort of thing.

It's fine, just threaten them with a Batman or Kamen Rider vs match or some shit.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Not my problem, double standards are double standards, and when it comes to things like that, we either allow it or not at all, point is we do in fact do that. This is no different, the character has shown extreme strength of will, and it should be indexed just like everything else.
Just because it doesn't meet, to be frank, completely arbitrary requirements that vary from person to person, profile to profile, and depending on who you ask this would meet requirements but others would say it doesn't like me and you (aka the power itself doesn't even have strict requirements, it has vague requirements), doesn't mean we should ignore it. Listing it not as supernatural, but listing it, all the same, is a compromise that appeases both camps and stays true to the ability's inane "requirements" but also true to our purpose as a wiki.

You acknowledge however that their feats aren't enough and that you are being lenient:

Note, I am being generous here

And the requirements aren't really arbitrary or vague, the are clear, "far beyond real human standards", what Kenny is doint isn't beyond real human standards. Also, the fact that the standard is beyond real humans also isn't arbitrary because the purpose of the wiki is to index fictional characters.

It's fine, just threaten them with a Batman or Kamen Rider vs match or some shit.

That isn't enough, they still don't learn even with that.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

It's fine, just threaten them with a Batman or Kamen Rider vs match or some shit.

DON'T YOU DARE-

 

[RandomGuy2345]

That isn't enough, they still don't learn even with that.

Or maybe it's because the people who threaten us with those matches are salty over the fact that their character took an L to a fake sport.

 

[Chariot190]

So feats like the ones you just showed would fall under "Immense Willpower" or "Supernatural Willpower"?

"Immense", though it honestly just depends on who you ask because we unironically don't have any baselines for this shit and it's mostly just "eh yeah that checks out ig" logic.
pol is superhuman tho, especially given how he escaped after being turned into a human potato

You acknowledge however that their feats aren't enough and that you are being lenient:

I acknowledge that personally, I don't think it strictly qualifies, but I also acknowledge that our "standards" don't actually exist, there's no requirement, it very much varies depending on who you ask, and even between accepted listings on numerous profiles, it can and does vary, and indexing it is far more important than not indexing it. Don't strawman or twist what I've said.

And the requirements aren't really arbitrary or vague, the are clear, "far beyond real human standards", what Kenny is doint isn't beyond real human standards. Also, the fact that the standard is beyond real humans also isn't arbitrary because the purpose of the wiki is to index fictional characters.

Yeah, and to be frank, that's vague as ****, what are "human standards", average human? Outliers that existed throughout history? What about humans that could only do what they could due to various medical conditions like lack of pain? Let's be real, we have no standards, and a vague "beyond real human standards" means nothing in the grand scheme of things especially when it doesn't actually list any real human examples. Where are the examples? The page should at the very least list real human standard examples as a baseline yet it doesn't, what about the dude who was able to function despite getting a pipe through the head? Would we say he has supernatural will? Or even type 2 immortality? No, because he's an exceptional outlier who while he might have existed irl, isn't at all the conventional standard. So would the minimum for supernatural willpower be "hey survive and continue to be fine after getting a 2 inch thick pipe lodged through your head"? Not really, but you can't deny such a thing happened and should be impossible irl.
And as I've said multiple times before, it's more important to index it.

That isn't enough, they still don't learn even with that.

They'll learn soon enough, they don't know what I'm cooking.