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Kenny Omega (and apparently the rest of the verse) Stamina "Downgrade"

Firestorm808 said:
Taking each other's hits are AP/Durability feats, but let's focus on Stamina.

Stamina is the measure of a character's ability to remain active, exert themselves for long periods of time, and power through harsh circumstances.

Have they shown being beyond the stamina of a peak human in the categories below?
  • Energy exertion time
  • Pain tolerance
  • Injury tolerance
Click to expand...
I showed you statements of the amount of damage The Brogue Kick does to an opponent...
 
Firestorm808 said:
That's not stamina.
Click to expand...
RandomGuy2345 said:
The Brogue Kick is one of the most dangerous moves in all of Pro Wrestling. A referee suffered chronic neck pain when hit with the move. The Brogue Kick was stated to cause extreme nerve damage and tingling in the extremities of the victim. Here's a visual of the damage caused by the Brogue Kick.

Before his match with Sheamus, Triple H was attacked with a lead pipe, which led to him suffering a neck injury so severe it caused nerve damage, which resulted in numbness in his left arm. He basically couldn't use it. He had to rely on pure adrenaline in order to win.

Towards the end of the match, Triple H ended up taking 4 Brogue Kicks. It took 4 Brogue Kicks in order to take down Triple H.

While participating in a grueling ‘Good Old Fashioned Donnybrook’ match, Drew McIntyre was even capable of kicking out of The Brogue Kick. Drew continued to fight on and win the match.
Click to expand...
You're telling me this isn't stamina?

Specifically the last one. Drew continued to fight despite getting hit with The Brogue Kick, and Triple H was already majorly injured before getting hit with The Brogue Kick.
 
Also, the time intervals between when the wrestlers "take breaks" compared to the peak human fighters (1-minute breaks), are noticeably shorter.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
I showed you statements of the amount of damage The Brogue Kick does to an opponent...
Click to expand...
And I asnwered to those things in my post.
Firestorm808 said:
Taking each other's hits are AP/Durability feats, but let's focus on Stamina.

Stamina is the measure of a character's ability to remain active, exert themselves for long periods of time, and power through harsh circumstances.

Have they shown being beyond the stamina of a peak human in the categories below?
  • Energy exertion time (A peak human would have passed out by now, but you're still active)
  • Pain tolerance (The pain would have KO'd a human in general, but you're still kicking)
  • Injury tolerance (Have two broken legs, but you're still standing up and fighting)
Click to expand...
Nope, they are Peak Human indeed (specially the more impressive ones), but they aren't beyond the human real as I showed on my last post, since fighting for long periods of time (and win) with broken fingers, jaws, ribs, necks, etc is something possible to humans and I showed the proofs (heck apparently even fight with a broken skull seem to be possible).
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
Nope, they are Peak Human indeed (specially the more impressive ones), but they aren't beyond the human real as I showed on my last post, since fighting for long periods of time (and win) with broken fingers, jaws, ribs, necks, etc is something possible to humans and I showed the proofs (heck apparently even fight with a broken skull seem to be possible).
Click to expand...
Can you show me those timestamps of those people fighting with broken necks and skulls and how long they fought for with said injury?
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Also, the time intervals between when the wrestlers "take breaks" compared to the peak human fighters (1-minute breaks), are noticeably shorter.
Click to expand...
If you watch those feats you posted you can see how the wrestlers are actually in useless states for quite the time after receive those attacks. I suggest that you read entirely my previous post that I analyzed and explained their fights and your arguments in general.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
If you watch those feats you posted you can see how the wrestlers are actually in useless states for quite the time after receive those attacks. I suggest that you read entirely my previous post that I analyzed and explained their fights and your arguments in general.
Click to expand...
That's because finishers do far more damage than normal moves, which I will summarize once again on how much damage they do.

James Ellsworth's finisher almost gave him the win against AJ Styles.

Keep in mind that Ellsworth was weakened due to being toyed with by AJ throughout the whole match, and the only time where he gained any offense was when AJ got distracted.

AJ Styles is widely considered one of the very best in the WWE verse, being able to defeat the likes of John Cena and Chris Jericho clean.

Basically, a Low Tier almost defeated a God Tier with their finisher alone.

There's a big, and I mean big difference in power between Low and God Tiers.

I'll try my best to not use any multipliers (as using that logic is objectively false), but here's the AP's of both respective tiers:

God Tiers: 5,367,524.97 Joules

Low Tiers: 310.7 Kilojoules

The fact that a Low Tier damn near one shot a God Tier with just their finisher already says a lot.

In fact, there was a top tier who quite literally powered through the pain of a finisher.
 
I already commented various times about that case with James and AJ so not gonna talk more about it. If staff see it as Superhuman stamina feats then ok.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
You're telling me this isn't stamina?

Specifically the last one. Drew continued to fight despite getting hit with The Brogue Kick
Click to expand...
Kicking out of finishers isn’t stamina, it’s either Instinctive Action, Durability, or an outright outlier depending on the situation
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Didn't you say that AJ was on the ground for a few moments?

If so, that makes sense since finishers do far more damage, like I said.
Click to expand...
I basically said that it was only because AJ received the kick to the head unprepared and he had already hit the head seconds before (like 3 seconds before, and the hit showed to hurt him quite a bit) against the ring corner, so under those circunstances it isn't particularly strange if AJ was briefly take down (just a few second).
RandomGuy2345 said:
You also forgot to look at this.
Click to expand...
I'm on phone with 7% battery, so I can't open any video, I don't think I will even post more until I get to home so can't say anything.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
I basically said that it was only because AJ received the kick to the head unprepared and he had already hit the head seconds before (like 3 seconds before, and the hit showed to hurt him quite a bit) against the ring corner, so under those circunstances it isn't particularly strange if AJ was briefly take down (just a few second).
Click to expand...
The thing is that the turnbuckle was nowhere near enough to keep AJ down. In fact, before he got hit with James' finisher, he was approaching him, seemingly ready to attack him. It was James' finisher that did the most damage.

I got more proof of finishers quite literally one-shotting other opponents.
 
Pikaman said:
Depending on the person it’s usually either a massive outlier done for shock factor or something along the lines of inconsistent and irregular limited invulnerability
Click to expand...
I had a feat of Dominik Dijakovic "no-selling" Keith Lee's Spirit Bomb, but he's very noticeably just fighting through the pain rather than just plain out no-selling the move as if it did no damage like someone like Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan would do.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
In fact, there was a top tier who quite literally powered through the pain of a finisher.
Click to expand...
After the slam both were dead tired on the ground until at 7:40 Keith dragged the limp body of Dominik Toretto, make him stand by helping him (because he was tired enough that wasn't able to do so himself), then after Dominik push Keith outside the ring (which wasn't hard since Keith was sitting on the ring corner) both were death tired again in the floor for another 40 seconds before touch between them again (and it was something like Dominik grabing Keith leg while he was climbing the ring corner again), they fought a bit and then at 20:07 the match end with Dominik lose, so basically after Dominik was slamed against the floor at 16:51 the fight lasted 3:16. So considering this things I wouldn't say is a Superhuman stamina feat.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
After Jericho got the fight lasted another 4:57 minutes, after Cena got the hit that made the blood (which didn't seem like blood at all) the fight lasted 12:57 minutes, significantly shorter than the hours feats of James Kelly vs Jonathan Smith and Andy Bowen vs Jack Burke listed on the op.
Click to expand...
...Jericho caused the match to end by DQ on purpose (I think). In fact, he was the last man standing at the end of it all, despite his severe amounts of bleeding he suffered. He was completely fine. He could've gone much longer.

Cena continued fighting without much issue, too. He ended up being the winner of that fight.

Anyways, I found a statement from WWE commentary that Braun Strowman can fight for countless hours.
 
Also, if you want to get into the specifics of Kurt Angle's neck injury, he fractured two vertebrae, herniated two discs, and pulled four muscles in his neck.

Did Jordan Williams suffer this many injuries in his neck?
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
...Jericho caused the match to end by DQ on purpose (I think). In fact, he was the last man standing at the end of it all, despite his severe amounts of bleeding he suffered. He was completely fine. He could've gone much longer.

Cena continued fighting without much issue, too. He ended up being the winner of that fight.

Anyways, I found a statement from WWE commentary that Braun Strowman can fight for countless hours.
Click to expand...
How much longer? Because he didn't continued fighting for 10 minutes. Cena lasted just a bit more than 10 minutes fighting. Both cases certainly are far from long extensions of time fighting. That said however, between all the feats this is debatable the only one that really could fall in the superhuman territory do to the amounts of blood (though that clearly isn't real blood but well, since the argument is that WWE is fiction then I guess is fair), so if staff members are fine with Jericho and Cena having superhuman stamina because of specifically those feats then I suppose is ok.

Cool, can share a feat of him doing that? Because that cleary is just an exaggeration to hype him (which is the normal thing to do because commentarist job is that, entertain spectator by hyping thing).
RandomGuy2345 said:
Also, if you want to get into the specifics of Kurt Angle's neck injury, he fractured two vertebrae, herniated two discs, and pulled four muscles in his neck.

Did Jordan Williams suffer this many injuries in his neck?
Click to expand...
As I showed Kurt was already getting medical treatment by the time he was fighting in the Olympics. I honestly also ask how fair is to use his feat as an olympic athlete to argue WWE wrestlers have superhuman stamina when the feat was performed far before he become a member of the WWE (so there was no script like in WWE fights and the thing is a real life historical feat of human endurance).

Jordan seem that had his C3 broken, along with his nose, orbital bone broken and other fractures, and he still fought various times without getting his neck treated (he in this 24 minutes video even comment in a part how one of his friends athletes also went through something similar, and said how athletes just go through that sort of things without caring too much).

And there is also the case of Jayde Mitchell (will just paste what I previously already wrote anbout his case):
Jayde Mitchell who commented to have withstood in a fight that he won a fight with a broken neck (he give full details of the injury, about how his C6 and C7 vertebrae smashed together, that the punch from his opponent ruptured his C6 and C7 disk and "pushed it halfway through" his spinal cord, which as result paralyzed his arm to the point that he literally didn't had the motorskills needed to do something as simple as scratching his face. He also show image of the scar from it), and this was just in the first round of the fight, he then went nine more rounds with his broken neck (which mean that he fought like 27 minutes while Triple H fight lasted 15:48 minutes). This fight was against Ainiwaer Yilixiati, a big chinese fighter who have won all the fights in his career (at the moment of his fight against Jayde he already was undefeated after 14 fights) except from this only lose against Jayde. After this fight Jayde returned to fight seven months after, something which he stated was too soon which as result caused him having to overcome throughout the next two years even more injuries.
Click to expand...
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
How much longer? Because he didn't continued fighting for 10 minutes. Cena lasted just a bit more than 10 minutes fighting. Both cases certainly are far from long extensions of time fighting. That said however, between all the feats this is debatable the only one that really could fall in the superhuman territory do to the amounts of blood (though that clearly isn't real blood but well, since the argument is that WWE is fiction then I guess is fair), so if staff members are fine with Jericho and Cena having superhuman stamina because of specifically those feats then I suppose is ok.
Click to expand...
Nah. That blood is real. WWE wrestlers (used to) cut themselves open with blades to make the fighting seem more "realistic". Jericho and Cena used blades to cut themselves in those specific matches. Though this has stopped ever since WWE went PG, as well as blading yourself can be a major risk if you cut yourself too deep. Cena and Jericho are just few of many examples of wrestlers who have cut themselves too deep and ended up gushing blood.

Just a fun fact.

Also, for how much longer, Jericho smacked JBL with a steel chair at around 15:27 (using the link here) and kicked JBL's ass for another 2-ish minutes before stopping. However, he didn't seem exhausted whatsoever after the beating he gave JBL, so this very well maybe Superhuman.

Cena fought for, like you said, fought for roughly 13 minutes after getting busted open, which is significantly longer than what Jericho fought for (though Jericho purposely got himself disqualified), so you can make an argument that they're roughly even.

Expectro2000xxx said:
As I showed Kurt was already getting medical treatment by the time he was fighting in the Olympics. I honestly also ask how fair is to use his feat as an olympic athlete to argue WWE wrestlers have superhuman stamina when the feat was performed far before he become a member of the WWE (so there was no script like in WWE fights and the thing is a real life historical feat of human endurance).

Jordan seem that had his C3 broken, along with his nose, orbital bone broken and other fractures, and he still fought various times without getting his neck treated (he in this 24 minutes video even comment in a part how one of his friends athletes also went through something similar, and said how athletes just go through that sort of things without caring too much).

And there is also the case of Jayde Mitchell (will just paste what I previously already wrote anbout his case):
Click to expand...
Fairs.
 
I also have another stamina feat for Eddie Guerrero.

At around 24:32, JBL smacks the living shit out of Eddie with a steel chair, causing him to profusely bleed. This one's a fair bit disturbing compared to the ones I showed for Cena and Jericho, so be warned, as it is a little uncomfortable to watch.

At around 26:05, commentary states that Guerrero very likely has a concussion, but he still has the will to fight on (albeit fairly sluggishly).

In the end, it was Eddie who came out on top, whooping JBL's ass after the match as well, after he got himself purposely disqualified.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
At around 24:32, JBL smacks the living shit out of Eddie with a steel chair, causing him to profusely bleed. This one's a fair bit disturbing compared to the ones I showed for Cena and Jericho, so be warned, as it is a little uncomfortable to watch.

At around 26:05, commentary states that Guerrero very likely has a concussion, but he still has the will to fight on (albeit fairly sluggishly).

In the end, it was Eddie who came out on top, whooping JBL's ass after the match as well, after he got himself purposely disqualified.
Click to expand...
I mean, the thing look like fake blood (which he probably got covered when he put the head inside a table and the camera changed to the other fighter), so don't really think is actually disturbing to see but ok.

Eddie began to actually fight again at around minute 30 (before that he was just really on the floor without being able to do more than react to the occassional count down), and after that he continued for around 6 minutes so the feat seems like around Jericho thing.




So, before this point I actually haven't tried searching about bloodiest fights, but at this point I become a bit curious so I watched two videos (this ones have real wounds so they can get quite disturbing in a real sense, get warned) with a bunch of mma bloody fights and after watching the amounts of bloods bleed through the fights I believe the wrestlers feats aren't probably outside of what is humanly possible, specially since the fights didn't lasted dozens of minutes in such states so the timeframes seem to fit with some of the above examples. I also remembered how in some of the previous videos I send in other posts the fighters were a good chunk of time in a quite bloodied state (like for example the Valdez championship fight) and that even with the fact that in the 1 minute break between rounds their team clean the blood from their bodies, so is probably that if they didn't get cleaned various times they would also be covered in similar amounts of blood.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
I mean, the thing look like fake blood (which he probably got covered when he put the head inside a table and the camera changed to the other fighter), so don't really think is actually disturbing to see but ok.
Click to expand...
...I already explained this. Eddie cut himself with a blade, and he ended up cutting himself too deep, causing him to bleed profusely (outside of kayfabe). AKA the blood is real.

The only time the blood is fake is when wrestlers use mouth capsules to make it seem it like they're coughing up blood to sell a internal injury.

Anyways, getting off topic here. This is the most I can type for now, so give me a bit to respond.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
...I already explained this. Eddie cut himself with a blade, and he ended up cutting himself too deep, causing him to bleed profusely (outside of kayfabe). AKA the blood is real.

The only time the blood is fake is when wrestlers use mouth capsules to make it seem it like they're coughing up blood to sell a internal injury.

Anyways, getting off topic here. This is the most I can type for now, so give me a bit to respond.
Click to expand...
Don't know what more want me to say, the blood don't look like real blood, like the viscosity, the way it shine so much when light hit it, how in less that 10 seconds suddenly cover completely body parts, the way it doesn't dry like real blood, etc. There are many things that point how the thing isn't real blood and instead is a special effect thing.
 
To re-iterate, did any wrestlers continue fighting with injuries that would have left a peak human dead or knocked out? I would consider that as superhuman.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
So, before this point I actually haven't tried searching about bloodiest fights, but at this point I become a bit curious so I watched two videos (this ones have real wounds so they can get quite disturbing in a real sense, get warned) with a bunch of mma bloody fights and after watching the amounts of bloods bleed through the fights I believe the wrestlers feats aren't probably outside of what is humanly possible, specially since the fights didn't lasted dozens of minutes in such states so the timeframes seem to fit with some of the above examples. I also remembered how in some of the previous videos I send in other posts the fighters were a good chunk of time in a quite bloodied state (like for example the Valdez championship fight) and that even with the fact that in the 1 minute break between rounds their team clean the blood from their bodies, so is probably that if they didn't get cleaned various times they would also be covered in similar amounts of blood.
Click to expand...
If the fights get stopped due to the fighters losing a lot of blood, then it's not as comparable as the wrestlers, who didn't get any time whatsoever to stop the fight due to blood. Besides, Jericho and Cena fit in this category, but Eddie Guerrero is above this. He bled a lot more than the fighters shown here.

Expectro2000xxx said:
Don't know what more want me to say, the blood don't look like real blood, like the viscosity, the way it shine so much when light hit it, how in less that 10 seconds suddenly cover completely body parts, the way it doesn't dry like real blood, etc. There are many things that point how the thing isn't real blood and instead is a special effect thing.
Click to expand...
Sigh... You're just not knowledgeable on Pro Wrestling like me and others are, so I shouldn't be shocked you would have this mindset. All I'm going to say is that the wrestlers cut themselves with blades so they can bleed to sell the attacks, which makes the blood real.

I will also like to re-iterate this:
RandomGuy2345 said:
At around 26:05, commentary states that Guerrero very likely has a concussion, but he still has the will to fight on (albeit fairly sluggishly).
Click to expand...

Firestorm808 said:
To re-iterate, did any wrestlers continue fighting with injuries that would have left a peak human dead or knocked out? I would consider that as superhuman.
Click to expand...
Cody Rhodes fought Seth Rollins with a torn pectoral muscle. This wouldn't leave a peak human dead, or likely even knocked out, but there are many different ways to have Superhuman stamina other than just fighting on with injuries that would leave a peak human dead or knocked out.
 
Firestorm808 said:
To re-iterate, did any wrestlers continue fighting with injuries that would have left a peak human dead or knocked out? I would consider that as superhuman.
Click to expand...
Nope, the most impressive things are feats that peak humans have also performed (and most of the time even better). The only maybe debatable thing is some wrestlers fighting covered in blood, but that is quite arguably since they only fought for a short time in said state and from videos that I posted it seems like there are irl fights were people fight similarly covered in blood and in similar timeframes as the wrestlers, there is also how the blood in those cases come from the head which apparently bleed a lot even if a injury isn't serious.
RandomGuy2345 said:
If the fights get stopped due to the fighters losing a lot of blood, then it's not as comparable as the wrestlers, who didn't get any time whatsoever to stop the fight due to blood. Besides, Jericho and Cena fit in this category, but Eddie Guerrero is above this. He bled a lot more than the fighters shown here.
Click to expand...
Read once again that wrestlers don't have breaks between fights.

Proceed to remember all the minutes where they are in a useless state in the floor dying to breath. Also remember Guerrero in the floor for like 6 minutes before being able to fight again for another 6 minutes.
RandomGuy2345 said:
Sigh... You're just not knowledgeable on Pro Wrestling like me and others are, so I shouldn't be shocked you would have this mindset. All I'm going to say is that the wrestlers cut themselves with blades so they can bleed to sell the attacks, which makes the blood real.

I will also like to re-iterate this:
Click to expand...
I already stated the reasons of why I don't think the blood in those specific clips you posted isn't real so not gonna talk more about that part. Anyways there is no point discussing that because even if indeed was fake blood (which pretty sure is) it would still count in verse as real do to how wwe is at the end a fiction work.

About the concussion part 1) Isn't outright confirmed 2) Guerrero didn't showed clear symptoms of a concussion so is certainly not sure if he really got one 3) The effects of a concussion can appear immediately or days and even weeks after, and some symptoms can last just seconds, so considering how tricky is to actually diagnose and how Guerrero didn't had any of the clear symptoms (like emotional change or vomiting for example), the comment don't actually mean much.
RandomGuy2345 said:
Cody Rhodes fought Seth Rollins with a torn pectoral muscle. This wouldn't leave a peak human dead, or likely even knocked out, but there are many different ways to have Superhuman stamina other than just fighting on with injuries that would leave a peak human dead or knocked out.
Click to expand...
Respect to Cody honestly because that's crazy.

I mean, to have superhuman stamina one need to go beyond what is humanly possible as the description itself in the stamina page say, so unless one do something which is literally impossible to irl humans you can't get the rating, and so far wrestlers feats are things that irl humans can pull and have show to do (as I showed through all the thread with proofs), so I don't see why they would get superhuman stamina from things that peak humans do.
 
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