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Issen Speed (Naruto): Staff Only

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Due to some complications, I'm making this subject staff only:

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光速の一刀は飛ぶ斬撃となって、敵を襲う! 名刀黒澤とミフネの剣技が合致した一撃!!

The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!

光速 here literally means speed of light (I call it lightspeed but does it really make a difference?)

The contention comes down to whether or not issen is light speed, or the movement of the arm producing it.

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Issen (Flash) is depicted as a projectile produced from a sword swing.

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Regular samurai can also use it.

Beyond contention on whether is just the projectile speed that is just light speed, the other issue is whether the speed applies to mifune only or all samurai.

Now the wording, I think, pertains more so to Mifune. The speed sentence is followed up with a focus on his blade and swordsmanship in relation to Issen. The databook also shows an image of Mifune specifically. The databooks show images sometimes in relation to a key event or person.

The other contention is whether or not it applies to base mifune. The databooks shows Kurama amped mifune, and he's only ever used issen when amped:

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Other Notes:
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last thing of note is the durability issue brought up by mabui. A plot point in Shippuden is that moving at light speed can destroy the body if you aren't durable enough (need to be comparable to the fourth raikage).

If the light speed movement pertains to the arm strokes for mifune or the samurai, this needs to be taken in mind. It most likely wouldnt be an issue for Kurama amped Mifune, but samurai are no where near the raikage in durability.

However, if the speed is for the projectile, all of this is a non factor, as it would be attack speed only.

Proposal:
My proposal would be for it to be attack speed only (the projectile), and apply to mifune only. Given the contention on it being base or amped, he could be given a "possibly / likely Speed of Light attack speed with Issen"
 
I got permission to say my piece (get it joshPiece 😉) on this topic by @KingTempest here https://vsbattles.com/members/kingtempest.9980/

Why I think this issen topic is ridiculous.


The Naruto franchise has set a clear scaling president to how the speed scaling narratively goes. With only the main God tiers only reaching FTL or SoL with 6paths power or 8 gates ( an ability that literally kills its users ) Where is this Sol and plus only god tier argument coming from? You can see clearly with Mabui’s transfer technique it’s been stated multiple times that moving at the speed of light is too fast for their (the Raikage and Hokage) body to handle. So this sounds like a clear durability feat needed to go at the SoL or faster, one that only the top/god tiers of the verse reach at the end of the series. So now Fodder have the durability on par with high/God tier?

The only time we see Mifune use the issen it gets out paced by kubi cloak Temari and her group of fodder ninjas. Obviously a calc would be necessary to show exactly how much faster it would be but it out paced the so called SoL attack so it is clear FTL going by the databook statement. Another point showing it is not narratively consistent at all for Naruto. To agree that the issen is SoL we would have to list kubi cloak Temari and fodder FTL as well another clear outlier.

Also it would be very weird if Fodder samurai could attack at the same speed as Jubi Madara.

In conclusion it completely goes against the narrative set by Kishimoto, and is a clear outlier from a databook that is known to have plenty of hyperbolic statements.

Ik I’m not the center of the world so y’all do not have to have the same thinking as me but i would like to hear clear and honest arguments against it.

Edit: I forgot to address the Haku SoL point as well. Why that’s a false comparison to the samurai is that Haku is doing so by reflections from mirror to mirror and his combat nor reactions scale to it. It is specifically travel speed from mirror to mirror.
 
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The only time we see Mifune use the issen it gets out paced by kubi cloak Temari and her group of fodder ninjas. Obviously a calc would be necessary to show exactly how much faster it would be but it out paced the so called SoL attack so it is clear FTL going by the databook statement. Another point showing it is not narratively consistent at all for Naruto. To agree that the issen is SoL we would have to list kubi cloak Temari and fodder FTL as well another clear outlier.

I don't think we need to change the ratings of the other characters at all.

And we're not making Mifune himself lightspeed.
 
I don't think we need to change the ratings of the other characters at all.

And we're not making Mifune himself lightspeed.
It specifically says the light speed sword becomes a slash.

He is moving the sword at the SoL. If he can easily move his sword at SoL why would this not scale to his normal combat speed. I explained his body must be strong enough to move at the speed of light due to the president Kishimoto has set in the manga with mabui’s transfer technique. Are all fodder samurai = to the raikage now?

The Temari and fodder outpace this attack. They all had the same kubi amp too. This would mean they are FTL.

You can see how this just ruins the scaling of Naruto soon are all fodders going to be FTL? And have faster attacks than Jubi Madara?
 
@joshpiece; and my suggestion to avoid scaling issues is to limit it to only Mifune's Issen attack instead of his normal combat speed, or anyone elses attack speed.

If the other option is not using it at all, I'm fine with that too. But nothing else is affected if we only limit it to Mifune's Issen.
 
If the other option is not using it at all, I'm fine with that too. But nothing else is affected if we only limit it to Mifune's Issen.
This is the best option.

If we used it, it doesn’t ignore the fact he has the In canon durability to survive moving at light speed so he would have to be relative or superior in dura to the raikage.

And even if it was just limited to the issen the only time he used it in canon it got out sped by fodder and Temari. So clearly Kishimoto wasnt portraying it to be one of the fastest moves in all of Naruto.

Also ( I hate to bring comparison to Op but this is the only similar one ik) another point is the sword stroke is stated to be light speed not the issen itself so it could be a Kuma type scenario where the sword stroke is LS but the chakra slash isn’t. It would also explain why Temari and fodder out paced it.
 
If we used it, it doesn’t ignore the fact he has the In canon durability to survive moving at light speed so he would have to be relative or superior in dura to the raikage.
Considering Mifune is the General of the entire Samurai Nation and was used as Moderator between the Kage while trading blows with Sasuke,It's not that Improbable for Mifune to be relative to the Base Raikage in Durability. we can just add a Possibly Mountain level by His durability section and mention the lightspeed part.
 
The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!
So I’m confused are we just changing the statement to fit our head canon?

It specifically says the light speed sword it doesn’t mention the slash or issen being light speed at all. We are all assuming that bc the sword stroke was Light speed now the issen is too? Seems like a false comparison.

Considering Mifune is the General of the entire Samurai Nation and was used as Moderator between the Kage while trading blows with Sasuke,It's not that Improbable for Mifune to be relative to the Base Raikage in Durability. we can just add a Possibly Mountain level by His durability section and mention the lightspeed part.
Your ignoring the fact that the statement is for fodder samurai as well. Not just Mifune.
 
Your ignoring the fact that the statement is for fodder samurai as well. Not just Mifune.

The statement is not for the fodder samurai as far as I can tell.

It specifically says the light speed sword it doesn’t mention the slash or issen being light speed at all. We are all assuming that bc the sword stroke was Light speed now the issen is too? Seems like a false comparison.

It doesn't say his general combat speed is that high, nor if there anything in the manga that would suggest it. It would only be for this specific technique.
 
the sword is literally the Issen. The slash is the issen, given that past of the databook is talking about Issen as a move. Its literally in the op that its for mifune only
 
The statement is not for the fodder samurai as far as I can tell.
The issen can be used by fodder samurai.

It doesn't say his general combat speed is that high, nor if there anything in the manga that would suggest it. It would only be for this specific technique.
Ok so he just turns on SoL movement just for a technique. The same technique fodder samurai have?

And also I’ll state again since nobody is addressing this the issen got outpaced by Temari and a group of fodder ninja. With this fact coupled with the fact that it doesn’t state the issen is Light speed it’s just the sword stroke it’s clear the issen and sword stroke are 2 different speeds. To argue that the issen is light speed would mean you support Temari FTL with kubi amp.

This is just a clear outlier.
 
The other contention is whether or not it applies to base mifune. The databooks shows Kurama amped mifune, and he's only ever used issen when amped:

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Temari literally fires her attack after the issen yet it outpaces it easily. This is the supposed light speed attack?
 
Why would it not be an outlier for them., rather than mifune?
So your arguing against the author? If Kishimoto wanted the issen to be one of the fastest moves in the verse he would portray it that way. And not have fodder outpace it.

Also yeah Mifune has an attack that = Jubi Madara but Temari is the outlier crazy world we live in.
 
arguing against the author

Excuse me? Kishimoto is no where near consistent with his speed depiction. Amped Lee blitzed madara faster than he can react, heck he was able to throw a kunai faster than juubidara could move his orb in 6th gates.

You want to argue author intent? Speed of sound or lower part 1, given the statement the speed of sound is the wall that cannot be surpassed by training by Dosu.

Yet we obviously dont cap part 1 as mach 1.

Issen has a statement for its speed when done by mifune, from an official guidebook, and the statement isnt hyperbolic. heck we have mifune faster than temari on site.
 
So listing PIS and author errors that Kishimoto retconed is sure an argument
heck we have mifune faster than temari on site.
well that scan directly counters that showing amped Temari is faster than Amped Mifune. This site has plenty of errors and rightfully so it’s impossible to be perfect so using VSB isn’t an argument either.


and the statement isnt hyperbolic.
You don’t get to determine that and idc it could be a hyperbole or not Mifune being SoL is an outlier.

After this I will only be addressing staff members. Since you wanted this to be staff only.
 
The statement doesnt have "goto". You have no argument for it being hyperbolic

and since you insist mifune is the outlier, and not the others have you considered the following

Why is war arc Temari fodder? Lol she has like no feats at this point, her being that fast (attack speed) wouldn't be contradicted by anything. Same with all those other random people, they could just be really strong and we don't know since we know nothing about them. Also all of them are amped, and there's nothing proving the kyuubi amp is the same for all of them, since the degree of the amp would depend on how effectively they can mold the chakra.
 
Can't the technique simply be a speed boost that gives different degrees of speed for different characters depending on how swift they are to start with?
 
Can't the technique simply be a speed boost that gives different degrees of speed for different characters depending on how swift they are to start with?
Possibly. Which is why I think Mifune's rating could be updated to:

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Able to fight against Sasuke), possibly Speed of Light attack speed with Issen (The Naruto databook states that Mifune's usage of this technique has a 'light-speed sword' but the only case of him using it is when he was enhanced by Kurama's chakra).

That seems like a fair middle-ground.
 
That seems fine to apply to me. Thanks for helping out.
 
I was given permission to speak here by Antvasima
I agree that the attack should be for mifune alone, and it should not be a "possibly" rating for a clear speed of light statement. It is speed of light.
Then can we please make a rule about the mabui transportation technique canceling out LS speed for everyone not on the raikage level of durability? It sounds weird, First the nature of the technique and i am sure moving your hand at a certain speed in a 1 meter circle is different from travelling thousands of kilometer at a certain speed.

Anyway my last addition it can be taken or not: It should be noted that samurais can also perform issen on their page, but they can be given an "Unknown with Issen or "Possibly"
Cause the statement for Issen was under the general samurai page in the databook not for mifune and the wiki translator said this
 
I agree that the attack should be for mifune alone, and it should not be a "possibly" rating for a clear speed of light statement. It is speed of light.

The justification I've posted up above explains why the possibly is used.

Then can we please make a rule about the mabui transportation technique canceling out LS speed for everyone not on the raikage level of durability? It sounds weird, First the nature of the technique and i am sure moving your hand at a certain speed in a 1 meter circle is different from travelling thousands of kilometer at a certain speed.

Why would that need a rule?

Anyway my last addition it can be taken or not: It should be noted that samurais can also perform issen on their page, but they can be given an "Unknown with Issen or "Possibly"

I don't think that would be a useful addition. Also we don't have pages for the generic samurai.

Cause the statement for Issen was under the general samurai page in the databook not for mifune and the wiki translator said this

That's now how the statement looks to me. Also you just said you agree with it being for Mifune alone.
 
The justification I've posted up above explains why the possibly is used.
yes i saw it, but it was the only time he used it on screen and the translation doesnt say anything about kurama chakra as a factor
Why would that need a rule?
it gets thrown around a lot and always out of context
I don't think that would be a useful addition. Also we don't have pages for the generic samurai.
Just arguments made previously, I have the book somewhere, will look into it later and send
That's now how the statement looks to me. Also you just said you agree with it being for Mifune alone.
Yes i agree and would also tag it as outlier for other samurais and issen is not instant and can be easily aim dodged atleast what was shown on panel.
I just think it should be worth noting so as not to be dishonest and neglecting something stated
 
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