J.M. DeMatteis(Marvel Cosmology Split)

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't think that the storyline of Defenders Vol. 3 should be removed from standard canon, since that was written by Kieth Giffen alongside Demattis, plus IIRC that storyline was referenced when Umar briefly tried making Hulk her consort for the second time.

Honestly, I don’t mind just not including this specific story in DeMatteis Cosmology blog since the treatment of Eternity is a bit iffy. Plus, it adds more confusion on the relationship between who Creation(Eternity or Maya) is. Though, small references here and there don't deter the usage of a story. Stuff like that is bound to happen and rarely affects the bigger canon at large.

So, even though I don’t mind per se. I think it's still suitable to use in this Cosmology preferably than the main Cosmology. Plus, J.M. DeMatteis is known for working with Kieth Giffen, they're good friends and collaborators. Kieth is known to let DeMatteis creates the scripts when it comes to more of the “cosmology aspect” of the storytelling.

As quote:

It wasn’t until ten years later—when Keith, Kevin, and I reunited for our Eisner-winning Formerly Known As The Justice League series—that we all went, “Hey…we’ve got something special here.” The three of us did more Justice League together, as well as a short Metal Men run I’m extremely fond of, and a Defenders mini-series for Marvel. Keith and I made sure to keep working together with regularity after that, right through to our Scooby Apocalypse series that ended in 2019. (Along with projects like Justice League 3000, Booster Gold, and Larfleeze, we produced my favorite Giffen-DeMatteis collaboration, our creator-owned series Hero Squared.)

There was no ego involved when Keith and I worked together. The basic plots, the rock-solid building blocks of our stories, were all Giffen—but I had the freedom to bend and twist those stories any way I chose. Someone else might have taken offense—“How dare you alter my brilliant creative vision?!”—but Keith always encouraged me to follow my muse, adding new plot-lines and character bits via the narration and dialogue. He, in turn, would build on what I’d done, always surprising me with his extraordinary leaps of imagination. It was, as I’ve often said, like a game of tennis: We’d hit the ball back and forth, and, as we played, the stories evolved into something more than either of us could have ever achieved on our own.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I largely share the same opinions as what Profectus has said above.

Also, there seems to be this issue here where any difference of a detail in the cosmology is immediately seen as merit to separate the cosmologies, which in my opinion doesn't make much sense. Since they are not really incompatibilities, where two things are mutually exclusive. Most of the stuff here looks like it could flow well with the cosmology, even.

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly, I don’t mind just not including this specific story in DeMatteis Cosmology blog since the treatment of Eternity is a bit iffy. Plus, it adds more confusion on the relationship between who Creation(Eternity or Maya) is. Though, small references here and there don't deter the usage of a story. Stuff like that is bound to happen and rarely affects the bigger canon at large.

So, even though I don’t mind per se. I think it's still suitable to use in this Cosmology preferably than the main Cosmology. Plus, J.M. DeMatteis is known for working with Kieth Giffen, they're good friends and collaborators. Kieth is known to let DeMatteis creates the scripts when it comes to more of the “cosmology aspect” of the storytelling.

As quote:

Personally I think just this small story alone is fine to keep in the cosmology FRA.

Plus removing it requires me to search through the Marvel Magic page and see what I need to remove, and I really don't want to do that.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Personally I think just this small story alone is fine to keep in the cosmology FRA.

Plus removing it requires me to search through the Marvel Magic page and see what I need to remove, and I really don't want to do that.

As much as I love people not to overwork. I need a better reason than this. Ultima, himself, is bombarded with work and revision. Yet, he works with what he has. This project would take a while so for things like that you can take all the time in the world.

I could make an exception that the story bleeds into both but at the same time, we can't have it both ways. Unless you can somehow make a small propposition where it entails that it can work for both as opposed to dropping it for one or the other. I don't see that and I'm counting on you to provide an ample or just a good enough reason. As I said prior, small reference here and there are fine, but they don't deter what stays and go.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I largely share the same opinions as what Profectus has said above.

Also, there seems to be this issue here where any difference of a detail in the cosmology is immediately seen as merit to separate the cosmologies, which in my opinion doesn't make much sense. Since they are not really incompatibilities, where two things are mutually exclusive. Most of the stuff here looks like it could flow well with the cosmology, even.

I'll take your words with a grain of salt for some obvious reasons.

In the past, when you were working to make some changes for the DC side of Cosmology, you knew you couldn't change the split. So you opt to resort to things like splitting and letting Morrison have his own take on the Cosmology. Not to mention, your opinion on the split in general is not sufficient. So within that basis, I think you're being a little too hypocritical of this split.

If that isn't your reasoning then I would like you to go more in-depth on why you don't want the split. You can answer the points that I've made because if you don't then saying it still works is pointless and I wouldn't count that as sufficient reasoning. Obviously, the claim that things he writes in his story can shared exclusively across other authors' depictions of Cosmology can be said for pretty everything. We’re already accustomed to split, so this isn't a ridiculous suggestion and I, rather, think it's much more sufficient and honest than ignoring this problem.

Plus, as I said before, how the DC Cosmology blog treats J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology and why it's incongruent with the larger canon, I don't see how Marvel gets away with this notion despite the fact his stories always have the same logic. I need better reasoning than whatever claim works is exclusive and please elaborate more on “how it flows well together” in opposition to why it doesn’t by countering my points and claim.

 

[Eseseso]

As much as I love people not to overwork. I need a better reason than this. Ultima, himself, is bombarded with work and revision. Yet, he works with what he has. This projection would take a while so for things like that you can take all the time in the world.

I could make an exception that the story bleeds into both but at the same time, we can't have it both ways. Unless you can somehow make a small proposition where it entails that it can work for both as opposed to dropping it for one or the other.

Have you spoken with Ultima about how this will affect tiering? Because he's the one planning Marvel cosmology changes, and the one who'd know how this fully affects the cosmology.

And if it works for both, then that's ok. You yourself said that there was some merit to making an exception due to the treatment of Eternity being bit iffy and it adding more confusion on the relationship between who Creation (Eternity or Maya) is.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Have you spoken with Ultima about how this will affect tiering? Because he's the one planning Marvel cosmology changes, and the one who'd know how this fully affects the cosmology.

Well according to Ultima he says he will be thinking about it. Thus, he, himself, I'm pretty sure won't know until he reads this thread.

I've certainly asked and he's certainly replied but only with the notion that he’ll think about it.

And if it works for both, then that's ok. You yourself said that there was some merit to making an exception due to the treatment of Eternity being bit iffy and it adding more confusion on the relationship between who Creation (Eternity or Maya) is.

Characters like Dormammu and Eternity could be ignored by this thread entirely and just have to follow some rule of thumb. So, yeah, I don't mind using things from Defenders for the profiles but if the feats/abilities in question are specific to just the Defenders story then it stays within this Cosmology split.

 

[Eseseso]

Well according to Ultima he says he will be thinking about it. Thus, he, himself, I'm pretty sure won't know until he reads this thread.

I've certainly asked and he's certainly replied but only with the notion that he’ll think about it.

He's the one behind both all 1-A stuff and Marvel cosmology, so his approval is crucial.

Characters like Dormammu and Eternity could be ignored by this thread entirely and just have to follow some rule of thumb. So, yeah, I don't mind using things from Defenders for the profiles but if the feats/abilities in question are specific to just the Defenders story then it stays within this Cosmology split.

I don't mind up and removing the cosmic axis stuff from Dormammu and Umar's profiles, but I still am not crazy about making a story literally referenced in a later story non-canon.

Thus, I feel like this should either remain in normal canon or be part of both.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

He's the one behind both all 1-A stuff and Marvel cosmology, so his approval is crucial.

Obviously, we’re all waiting on his thoughts. Since I have a feeling that if he agrees with this thread then there be less of a debate and less skepticism behind this thread.

I was simply saying that he hasn't read this thread.

I don't mind up and removing the cosmic axis stuff from Dormammu and Umar's profiles, but I still am not crazy about making a story literally referenced in a later story non-canon.

Thus, I feel like this should either remain in normal canon or be part of both.

As I said if nothing is being contradicted in the story and it is not a story-specific element then it’s useable.

I wouldn't even really call any DeMatteis ideas or story non-canon rather it’s completely ignored and contradicted. I would really call it “his canon” only in the sense that we go off what he says and certain aspects of his story are special only to him. This is the same case for Crisis Cosmology and Vertigo story split, it’s not canoncity, but rather, compatibility in certain aspects because you could argue for keeping the elements together which @ProfectusInfinity and @NHTkenshin2 are arguing for to keep a composite cosmology.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I would hold off until the Tiering System revisions are formally applied for this.

They are.