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Izuku CRT, OFA and durability

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Andytrenom

Andytrenom

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Currently it is accepted that One For All's power amplification doesn't extent to the host's durability. We may need to talk about this

Introductio
The reason most characters have their durability scaled to their striking strength and Izuku doesn't is something to do with newton's third law. If you exert a certain amount of force on something you'll experience the same amount of force being exerted on you. To my knowledge it is assumed that this reaction force is what ends up breaking Izuku's limbs every time he uses 100% meaning that his durability isn't being enhanced alongside his physical strength.

There was also a point I saw used that Gran Torino could knock Izuku out of 5% as a support to this. I'm not actually sure why this is supposed to support OFA not being a dura boost so feel free to explain it so I can understand.


Now then, I will move on to the counter evidence against this interpretation

Counter 1
Something that I didn't realize myself at first but was pointed out is that OFA not affecting durability implies that All Might had the same level of durability throughout his whole run as a hero or that his durability comes from his own training rather than his quirk. It is plain to see why neither of these possibilities are likely considering that a quirkless person being naturally more durable than some of the toughest characters in the series is outright impossible and from what we know of the series so far training to become this strong is also not in the realm of possibility.

You could argue that there's a third interpretation, that some unknown event caused All Might to have equal durability to his AP. But if this was true then don't you think we would have at least gotten some vague allusions to this? Of his durability deriving from a source other than his powers? This interpretation should also be disconsidered since it would be the very definition of Occam's razor.


Counter 2
The second and third counter evidence deal with the limb damage supposedly being a result of reaction force

This is a dialogue Izuku's doctor has after he examines the detail of his injuries from the Muscular fight. He states that the damage received by Izuku resembled Firecrackers going off inside his hand. This doesn't line up with the damage being a result of reaction force very well instead, implying that something was destroying Izuku's arm from within. This means it was the power from OFA itself that eats away at his arm every time a full power punch is used, not the counterforce of that punch paired up with an insufficient durability


Counter 3
For further evidence of 100% damage not being reaction force, let's take a look at 20% Izuku. Using this form causes Izuku immense pain, even when he's not making any movement he feels his bones and muscles creaking. Notice anything? 20% percent Izuku is suffering the consequences of OFA even when he isn't launching any kind of attack thus not making it possible for any kind of reaction force to be applied back at him. Logically speaking, the effects of 100% should not be anything other than the effects of 20% but amplified to a much greater extent, so if the damage he takes in 20% isn't the result of reaction forces then why should 100% be?

Summary
Izuku's limbs breaking at a 100% isn't a result of the force of his attacks being applied back at him, it is a result of OFA itself destroying Izuku's body from the inside when utilized. You may argue that OFA being able to do this is itself evidence of Izuku's durability not increasing but, at the very least I don't think it provides as much solid proof of OFA not interacting with durability as the newton's third law interpretation would. All Might having durability comparable to AP also goes against this so I think it's safe to assume that One For All indeed is a durability boost and Izuku's stats should be adjusted to reflect this.

Izuku's durability should be split up in additional keys to correspond to the output of One For All that he's using, with the possible exception of 100% since even if he's theoretically getting a boost in durability he's certainly not getting the actual ability to fend off City Block level attacks while activating 100%.

Any objections?
 
I totally agree with this, my main problem with OFA not increasing Izuku's durability is that it is completely impossible for him to train enough to achieve 7-A+ durability, even Endeavor, who has trained for several years only has 8-B durability.

My other problem with OFA is that 100% should be strong enough to pulverize Izuku's arms, but that doesn't happen, which means that his durability actually increases while using 100%, and that his arms only break for the reasons Andytrenom explained.
 
What would Izuku's durability section change to if this is applied?
 
I think it'll look like this:

Building level (Withstood a casual fire attack from Dabi, which was able to hurt Shouji) | Building level | Building level (Survived a fall that left a huge crater) | Building level+ (Took a large explosion with minor injuries. After his training with All Might, Izuku was able withstand the power of One For All 20% on his fingers without harming himself. Endured multiple attacks from Gentle in Lover Mode) | Large Building level | City Block level+

Key: U.A. Beginnings Saga | Rise of Villains Saga | 5% | 8% | 20% | 100%

I deleted Bakugou from the justifications because the explosions he used against Izuku were not 8-C or even 9-A+, and All Might shouldn't be there because we don't know how much he was holding back.
 
City Block level+ is the only one I have a problem with. As I explained even if he's theoretically getting a boost in durability he's certainly not getting the actual ability to fend off city block level+ attacks in 100%.

Tho maybe we can give him 8-B durability but just make a note of this in his justification?
 
Btw where does the movie take place chronologically? Logically speaking, it couldn't have happened in the period between the training camp arc's climax and the AfO fight.
 
Therefir said:
It takes place between the 2nd and 3rd season.
Click to expand...
So before the training camp arc? Alright

And about the keys, I think the first key should only include feats from the beginning of series to just before their training with the pussycats starts. This is because up till this point the students' growth with their quirks was noted to be marginal and it is in this arc that they really kicked up their quirk training.
 
I disagree with upgrading Izuku's durability.

Even without considering Newton's Third Law, the simple fact that Izuku's getting his bones broken by exercising 20% or 100% of One for All means that he cannot handle that much energy channelled by OFA.

Yes, OFA clearly amps durability as we see from All Might, but it's even more evident that Izuku's durability doesn't go up proportionally to the AP received. Comparing the two is just wrong, especially when considering that All Might is much more experienced with it and remarks that he managed to master it almost immediately as he had much more training before receiving the quirk than Deku, so the two cases cannot really be compared.
 
>Even without considering Newton's Third Law, the simple fact that Izuku's getting his bones broken by exercising 20% or 100% of One for All means that he cannot handle that much energy channelled by OFA.

Yeah but unlike newton's third law, it isn't as sufficient evidence of OFA simply never interacting with durability and only affecting his attack potency. How much do you know about the mechanics by which ofa is transferred to parts of a body and based on those mechanics can you explain why it either needs to not have a relationship with durability at all or be able to completely mitigate the effects of going over any threshold of power output?

Explain why the arms breaking at 100% proves that OFA cannot even work as a durability boost at safer percentages,

Also he can handle 20% to a degree and fight momentarily


>Yes, OFA clearly amps durability as we see from All Might, but it's even more evident that Izuku's durability doesn't go up proportionally to the AP received. Comparing the two is just wrong, especially when considering that All Might is much more experienced with it and remarks that he managed to master it almost immediately as he had much more training before receiving the quirk than Deku, so the two cases cannot really be compared.


There's zero reason why OFA would give a durability boost to All Might but not to Izuku. They're fundamentally the same power and just because one person is more experienced with it doesn't mean the core mechanics of the ability would be different for him.
 
So is the logic along the lines of:

5% One For All gives a equal stat boost to strength and durability.

8% One For All gives a equal stat boost to strength and durability.

100% One For All gives a massive stat boost to strength and a small boost to durabiltiy?
 
@Damage 100% is what i'm most unsure about. You could say it gives a equal but completely unhelpful boost in durability or that the durability is unknown in 100% due to the region of the body Izuku uses it in breaking apart.
 
@Damage So, do you see any issues with the proposals? Well by proposal I mean OP, the actual results of these revision may need some discussion.
 
Well, Izuku's durability already goes up to Building level+.

The most significant change I see this thread having is Deku gaining Large Building level durability when he activates 20% One For All - though as you note even just activating 20% gives Izuku intense pain.

About the proposals, overall I'm feeling neutral tbh.
 
Another thing I would like to say regarding the broken limbs=no durability boost point, wouldn't pumping energy directly into your bones and muscles and overdoing it to the point that explosions happen inside your very arms or legs be kind of a different scenario than if you simply took an attack containing equivalent equivalent energy from an outside source?

Because if it is I don't think Izuku being unable to handle 100% energy is a good argument for his durability being unaffected by OFA.

This also applies to 20% but not as much

@Damage Noted
 
I'm more neutral as well.

Though I disagree with Large Building level dura for 20%, just activating 20% causes him intense pain and he can't hold it for long. 20% is the highest Izuku can raise OFA without breaking his bones, it doesn't really seem like he has Large Building dura for that.

I do see City Block level dura for 100%, though I don't think it should have a plus sign.

If Izuku's dura didn't increase by anything, that clash with Muscular would've played out a lot differently.
 
>Yeah but unlike newton's third law, it isn't as sufficient evidence of OFA simply never interacting with durability and only affecting his attack potency. How much do you know about the mechanics by which ofa is transferred to parts of a body and based on those mechanics can you explain why it either needs to not have a relationship with durability at all or be able to completely mitigate the effects of going over any threshold of power output?Explain why the arms breaking at 100% proves that OFA cannot even work as a durability boost at safer percentages, Also he can handle 20% to a degree and fight momentarily.

You're way overcomplicating OFA. The quirk gives energy to a particular part of the body and then the user fires off that energy. Deku not managing to resist 100%'s power output means he doesn't have the durability to resist that much energy, simple as that.

>There's zero reason why OFA would give a durability boost to All Might but not to Izuku. They're fundamentally the same power and just because one person is more experienced with it doesn't mean the core mechanics of the ability would be different for him.

There's also 0 reasons for why All Might has a buff form and can use the full potential of OFA. This would be simply one of the many differences between Deku and All Might, because, at difference of the latter, Izuku has no High 8-C/8-B durability feat.
 
Except there was no buff form at all before, if that's something you wanna use as a reasoning. That was just how All Might looked, and then somehow did with All For One to not look any less different even after his injury and surgery. All Might always talked about Izuku's body being able to take it, whatever he meant, so it only meant his body was capable of it. There is still no way for All Might to train to that level of durability, no meaningful difference between him and Deku that says Deku should be different, and far too many cases where Deku should have just straight up pulverized his body into a fine mist for the things he's tried.
 
All Might = Deku is honestly a poor argument. How do you even explain the fact that Deku breaks his arms at 100% and All Might doesn't then?

And no amount of statements or speculations are going to change the simple evident fact that Deku cannot withstand 8-B energy when channeled by OFA.
 
>You're way overcomplicating Ofa....simple as that

I asked you to explain why a certain output of a ofa breaking Izuku proves ofa interacting with durability and giving durability boosts in general is impossible. How exactly is asking for better explaination about a argument "overcomplicating Ofa"?

And is it really as simple? If someone directly injected your blood vessels with energy with the purpose of making it explode out would you say it will be the same thing as simply punching with that amount of energy and if you can tank one you can tank the other?

If your logic is just "energy is sent to a body part>body part is damaged>character doesn't have durability to withstand that much energy" without factoring in how the energy interacts with the body part then you would have to

>All Might=Deku...then?

Give the explanation you believe or was mentioned within the source and I'll see if it disproves the ofa being a durability boost interpretation
 
And just to clarify my problem isn't "durability isn't required to tank ofa you shouldn't argue that" my problem is "How energy affects you depends on more than just its potency so the mechanism of how ofa interacts with body parts shouldn't be ignored while arguing how much durability would be needed to channel it"
 
All izuku when going into a higher % he is able to take more hits from stronger people then his pass %
 
I'm just reminding everyone that the only difference from before would be upgrading Deku's dura to High 8-C when using 20% and 8-B when using 100%, as Izuku's base durability is already 8-C+.

@Andy

Energy is energy, no matter the kind. This has been a standard for pretty much always. You tank an 8-B electrical attack? Then you can tank 8-B heat, and vice versa. This is how we've been handling these kind of durability feats (it was agreed on that thread about Electricity negating durability).

Also, the thing about this upgrade is that durability increases at the same level as Deku's AP because it happens with All Might, completely ignoring the already existing several differences between them, without Deku actually having an 8-B feat and having the antifeat of harming himself by using the energy. Basically we're using speculation to justify antifeats and upgrade Deku despite not having any feat on that level.
 
On another note, can we change the formatting of Izuku's page to this or something similar

Tier: 9-A | 8-C | 8-C with 5%, higher with 8%, High 8-C with 20%, 8-B with 100% or higher

Attack Potency: Small Building level+ (Can cut through a One-Point Bot with a piece of armor. Superior to Hitoshi Shinsou, who can slightly hurt him) | Building level (After almost a whole year of training, he should be stronger than before. Comparable to the current Shinsou) | Building level with 5% (Able to harm Bakugou in the Final Exams Arc), Building level+ with 8% (Can injure Overhaul, though not very significantly), Large Building level with 20% (Was convinced he could defeat Overhaul with one strike to the head), City Block level+ with 100% or higher (Caused an earthquake that was felt hundreds of meters away). The Iron Soles double the attack potency of his kicks

Key: U.A. Beginnings Saga | Rise of Villains Saga | Post Gran Tarino Training
 
So the whole argument is based on why Deku's arms doesn't pulverize at 20-100%?


I hardly even doubt Horikoshi knows that he makes a Bulding level character just have a few broken bones from an almost 8-A attack


I disagree with Upgrading Deku durability.
 
Well, I highly doubt that he made base Deku much more durable than Kirishima with Red Riot Unbreakable.

And people still haven't addressed how the hell base Deku is going to have 7-A+ durability in the future to be able to use Full Cowl 100%, or why his bones break from the inside.
 
I think for 100% he shouldn't have city block+ durability yet, as his body was getting detroyed and eri was reverseing the damange showing he didn't have that level of durability in full cowl 100%, in the future when he masteres 100% yeah he may have that durability, but fot now no
 
I still think that 100% increases his durability because he was able to clash with Muscular for an extended period of time while both used a similar strenght.
 
And right now we don't differentiate between durability feats in base and durability feats using ofa so that doesn't really mean anything.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
@Andy
Click to expand...
The standard of "energy is energy no matter the kind" relates to what statistics and powers you can give to a character for using a certain form of energy or tanking a certain kind of attack, it only tells you what default assumptions you can make about a character and his abilities. It doesn't discredit the idea of energy having different effects depending on how it is applied in any shape or form.

You can say Izuku will tank different forms of energy used as attacks if they're below his durability but you cannot say energy can only be applied to Izuku in a way that it doesn't cause more damage than generic attacks or that ofa damaging the body being comparable to normal attacks damaging the body is the correct interpretation unless you actuallt bother to explain anything about what ofa energy is or how it functions

Also, the thing about this upgrade is that durability increases at the same level as Deku's AP because it happens with All Might, completely ignoring the already existing several differences between them, without Deku actually having an 8-B feat and having the antifeat of harming himself by using the energy. Basically we're using speculation to justify antifeats and upgrade Deku despite not having any feat on that level.


It's no speculation that All Might and Izuku posses the exact same superpower and it's only reasonable to assume that at least the core abilities of the power will be same between the two. Such as increasing one the three fundamental parts of physical capacity

And you so far have yet to prove this is an anti feat since we are currently in the process of determining if the damage is actually evidence against ofa being a durability boost and you have done nothing to justify that it is other than bringing up a standard that isn't even about situations like these.
 
@Astral Yes but that is ofa destroying the body from within not the impact of his attacks being applied back at him like it is for other characters. So it is kinda questionable if this actually disproves durability being boosted.
 
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