Issues with scaling for the MHA verse

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The issue with scaling this verse by wiki standards is that there are no feats in between the top and mid tiers to calc for numerical differences in power. This results in numerous interpretations for scenes and scaling. Which is annoying.



Kaminari could discharge 1.2 million volts in the sports festival, him upping it to 2 million when pushing himself isn’t inconsistent at all. And what feats does 5% have that aren’t consistent with his current one?

There are barely any feats in the main manga from characters going all out for us to scale, so much we rely on the anime sometimes. Obviously the movies, which are mainly combat oriented in areas where the students can fight all out, are going to have higher feats than they display when not in those situations.

I acknowledge that issue. It's such a massive gap (more like something from dbz) that it makes no sense to even exist here.

Kaminari at no later date has shown 2 million volts. It also makes no sense that he can up his power like that before Aizawa even said they barely improved their quirks and Bakugou (who'd train harder than Kaminari and had better improvements) had the most miniscule of power increases by season.

Yet we still have higher end feats than what we normally see or do you think Kaminari intercepting lightning, hypersonic Deku (as though we haven't seen Deku go at someone with his top speed in the manga) are their normal levels.

 

[Damage3245]

Where are we up to right now? Do we need to resort to making a list of every single feat out of Endeavor and Shigaraki, and seeing what makes the most sense?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So let me get this straight, we're gonna drop the calculations that are extremely consistent and honestly make much more sense then just 7-C, all because you can't properly scale the Top Tiers, and also because you think that the movie feats are inflated.

Ignoring the obvious fact that this would make no sense, the only way for the Low 7-B/7-B feats to be dropped is if they're proven to be inconsistent or outliers, which is obviously impossible due to the sheer amount of them. Just because other movie feats are inflated doesn't mean all of them are. That can easily be classified as as an association fallacy.

What this basically comes down too is getting rid of consistent scaling because of one feat that's extremely casual. All For One's feat isn't even reliable as a full power feat for him because he admitted that he was holding back all the time on All Might.

AFO admitted he wasn't planning to kill him with Air Cannon sure but are you seriously arguing that AFO was only hitting with less than a 100th of his power the entire fight? Explain how and why Endeavor is over 1000x Jeanist's durability or explain why Dabi's flashfire is such a ridiculous increase to his power.

What implies AFO was so casual he was at less than 1% to kill the heroes?

 

[Earthyboy]

I acknowledge that issue. It's such a massive gap (more like something from dbz) that it makes no sense to even exist here.

Kaminari at no later date has shown 2 million volts. It also makes no sense that he can up his power like that before Aizawa even said they barely improved their quirks and Bakugou (who'd train harder than Kaminari and had better improvements) had the most miniscule of power increases by season.

Yet we still have higher end feats than what we normally see or do you think Kaminari intercepting lightning, hypersonic Deku (as though we haven't seen Deku go at someone with his top speed in the manga) are their normal levels.

Again, using feats that are inconsistent in the movies to say that the 7-B/Low 7-B feats are outliers would be an association fallacy. Just because one or two movie feats make no sense doesn't mean all the movie feats are outliers. By this logic, 8-B+ 20% Deku is an outlier.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Again, using feats that are inconsistent in the movies to say that the 7-B/Low 7-B feats are outliers would be an association fallacy. Just because one or two movie feats make no sense doesn't mean all the movie feats are outliers. By this logic, 8-B+ 20% Deku is an outlier.

20% Deku is featless and is vaguely much stronger than 8%. The argument that it's higher than his normal levels doesn't apply there because he has nothing else to scale to.

 

[Earthyboy]

AFO admitted he wasn't planning to kill him with Air Cannon sure but are you seriously arguing that AFO was only hitting with less than a 100th of his power the entire fight? Explain how and why Endeavor is over 1000x Jeanist's durability or explain why Dabi's flashfire is such a ridiculous increase to his power.

How about you explain to me how we're planning to get rid of all the Low 7-B/7-B feats all because of one 7-C feat. YOU can literally argue that AFO's feat would be an outlier via prior feats. It's not impossible for Endeavor to be a completely different Tier then Jeanist anyways. Nothing proves that there would be a problem with that. Jeanist is literally 8-A anyways.

 

[Earthyboy]

20% Deku is featless and is vaguely much stronger than 8%. The argument that it's higher than his normal levels doesn't apply there because he has nothing else to scale to.

The problem is that you're committing the association fallacy by saying that the Low 7-B movie feats are outliers because of other movie feats being outliers. Are you forgetting that the manga also had a 7-B feat, in the FIRST chapter?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I acknowledge that issue. It's such a massive gap (more like something from dbz) that it makes no sense to even exist here.

Kaminari at no later date has shown 2 million volts. It also makes no sense that he can up his power like that before Aizawa even said they barely improved their quirks and Bakugou (who'd train harder than Kaminari and had better improvements) had the most miniscule of power increases by season.

Yet we still have higher end feats than what we normally see or do you think Kaminari intercepting lightning, hypersonic Deku (as though we haven't seen Deku go at someone with his top speed in the manga) are their normal levels.

He doesn’t show that at a later date because he can only get that high with his indiscriminate shock, which short circuits his brain faster than normal shots. The entire purpose of his equipment after the camp was to NOT become a liability by recklessly discharging. He has had no reason to use that level of power since then.

Just because Bakugo made no improvements to his quirks actual strength doesn’t mean Kaminari can’t push himself, I don’t get this argument. He could use 1.3 million volts pretty ok and not instantly become dumb, while 2 million made him instantly dumb. It’s the same principle of Bakugo using explosions that hurt him vs not, Kaminari can create more energy than just 1.3 when he wants to, it just comes with more risk.

So because outlier feats in a piece of media exist, the entire piece of media is considered invalid, regardless of other feats in that media that actually PROVE consistency? Association fallacy.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

How about you explain to me how we're planning to get rid of all the Low 7-B/7-B feats all because of one 7-C feat. YOU can literally argue that AFO's feat would be an outlier via prior feats. It's not impossible for Endeavor to be a completely different Tier then Jeanist anyways. Nothing proves that there would be a problem with that. Jeanist is literally 8-A anyways.

So people in this show can just be thousands of times stronger than another? Why would Jeanist be in any dangerous fight when he can just get blown to paste by being grazed? What prior feats even make 7C an outlier? How is Nejire pushing High Ends and putting up a fight when they're apparently thousands of times her strength? Why would AFO drop his power level that low to only do 7C levels of damage?

The problem is that you're committing the association fallacy by saying that the Low 7-B movie feats are outliers because of other movie feats being outliers. Are you forgetting that the manga also had a 7-B feat, in the FIRST chapter?

Said 7-B feat was not only the most inconsistent thing in the manga but changed it's value every 2 weeks. My point is the movies are inconsistent and seeing as how the only 7B feats in the manga have been rejected how can we say the movie feats aren't outliers themselves?

 

[Damage3245]

So people in this show can just be thousands of times stronger than another?

The issue is not in the gap of power between certain characters.

It is who scales to what value. Is it unbelievable that All Might could be thousands of times stronger than Mineta? No. So clearly the issue is just in detirmining who should scale to what.

Why would AFO drop his power level that low to only do 7C levels of damage?

All For One doesn't have a set power level for all of his Quirks. It's logical that the amount of destruction he could do with one Quirk is not equal to another Quirk, or a number of Quirks in unison.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

He doesn’t show that at a later date because he can only get that high with his indiscriminate shock, which short circuits his brain faster than normal shots. The entire purpose of his equipment after the camp was to NOT become a liability by recklessly discharging. He has had no reason to use that level of power since then.

Just because Bakugo made no improvements to his quirks actual strength doesn’t mean Kaminari can’t push himself, I don’t get this argument. He could use 1.3 million volts pretty ok and not instantly become dumb, while 2 million made him instantly dumb. It’s the same principle of Bakugo using explosions that hurt him vs not, Kaminari can create more energy than just 1.3 when he wants to, it just comes with more risk.

So because outlier feats in a piece of media exist, the entire piece of media is considered invalid, regardless of other feats in that media that actually PROVE consistency? Association fallacy.

Ok I'll concede on the Kaminari point as it would be possible for him to push his limit to such a degree.

I never said every feat from the movies are wrong I'm talking about the ones that are quite blatantly above what we're shown in the show. I'm right in stating the movies show higher end feats than what's ever shown by characters in the show. It would be an outlier for AM who get's harmed by 7C attacks to turn right around and fight at Low 7B.

It also would require us to drop several calcs for this new scaling to make sense.

The issue is not in the gap of power between certain characters.

It is who scales to what value. Is it unbelievable that All Might could be thousands of times stronger than Mineta? No. So clearly the issue is just in detirmining who should scale to what.



All For One doesn't have a set power level for all of his Quirks. It's logical that the amount of destruction he could do with one Quirk is not equal to another Quirk, or a number of Quirks in unison.

Right I should've been more specific. It'd make no sense for such a difference to exist among high tier characters like Jeanist or Endeavor.

Why would AFO's Air Cannon undergo such a drastic change in destructive power? It'd be one thing if he upped the power like 2 through 10 times but going from 7C to Low7B+ is ridiculous. It is also equally ridiculous that AFO would pull his punches at all.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Right I should've been more specific. It'd make no sense for such a difference to exist among high tier characters like Jeanist or Endeavor.

Why would AFO's Air Cannon undergo such a drastic change in destructive power? It'd be one thing if he upped the power like 2 through 10 times but going from 7C to Low7B+ is ridiculous.

A huge gap in strength is already present between Endeavor and Jeanist when Endeavor tanked an unamped Air Cannon at point blank and could still fight while Jeanist was nearly killed by one further away. We didn’t make that distinction, Horikoshi did.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, it's possible All For One used just the basic Air Cannon Quirk to defeat Best Jeanist but when facing All Might he increased the power of it with strength enhancer and kinetic energy boosters.

The reason why it's possible Best Jeanist wasn't hit with his full power is because the amount of destruction All For One causes when shooting it at All Might appears to be even higher than the first time he used it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

A huge gap in strength is already present between Endeavor and Jeanist when Endeavor tanked an unamped Air Cannon at point blank and could still fight while Jeanist was nearly killed by one further away. We didn’t make that distinction, Horikoshi did.

The unamped Air Cannon doesn't equal the amped one Jeanist got hit with. Where'd you get the idea Jeanist took the base one?

"We didn’t make that distinction, Horikoshi did." We ironically did.

 

[TheRustyOne]

There's no issue with AFO using a 7-C attack against the Heroes, especially when their own dura is 8-A. That attack was over 20x their own dura and even the 8-A energy Jeanist took injured him so much that he couldn't move his body. He needed to use his Quirk to move around and was impaled by AFO seconds later by a far smaller blast that came from his finger.

Endeavor takes the same Air Cannon to the face by Shigaraki, and he sent back but is only slightly injured. A standard Air Cannon with no Quirks backing it up goes straight through Jeanist, while Endeavor takes it with very little damage.

 

[Earthyboy]

So people in this show can just be thousands of times stronger than another? Why would Jeanist be in any dangerous fight when he can just get blown to paste by being grazed? What prior feats even make 7C an outlier? How is Nejire pushing High Ends and putting up a fight when they're apparently thousands of times her strength? Why would AFO drop his power level that low to only do 7C levels of damage?

Said 7-B feat was not only the most inconsistent thing in the manga but changed it's value every 2 weeks. My point is the movies are inconsistent and seeing as how the only 7B feats in the manga have been rejected how can we say the movie feats aren't outliers themselves?

The 7-B All Might feat has been determined to use CAPE only until further notice. Therefore we can count it as a feat. There's three 7-B/Low 7-B feats that make AFO's feat an outlier. Making the Top Tiers 7-C literally contradicts several feats all because of one feat. The 7-C feat is THE DEFINITION of an outlier.

It's not like Jeanist is scalable to AFO to begin with. AFO is a Top Tier character. Some of the Top 10 aren't even comparable to AFO as shown with Endeavor.

Ok I'll concede on the Kaminari point as it would be possible for him to push his limit to such a degree.

I never said every feat from the movies are wrong I'm talking about the ones that are quite blatantly above what we're shown in the show. I'm right in stating the movies show higher end feats than what's ever shown by characters in the show. It would be an outlier for AM who get's harmed by 7C attacks to turn right around and fight at Low 7B.

It also would require us to drop several calcs for this new scaling to make sense.

Right I should've been more specific. It'd make no sense for such a difference to exist among high tier characters like Jeanist or Endeavor.

Why would AFO's Air Cannon undergo such a drastic change in destructive power? It'd be one thing if he upped the power like 2 through 10 times but going from 7C to Low7B+ is ridiculous.

The movies showing higher feats then what's shown in the manga and show LITERALLY do nothing to effect the 7-B/Low 7-B feats. The manga has a 7-B feat anyways. You're argument is basically an association fallacy.

Have you ever considered the fact that maybe the 7-C feat is an outlier? Because when you have several 7-B/Low 7-B feats prior to the 7-C one, maybe the 7-C one would be an outlier? It's not even illogical to assume that Endeavor is a much stronger character then Jeanist because he outright took an Air Canon to the fact with minimal damage. while Jeanist was nearly killed and pushed back, even when he was far away from it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

There's no issue with AFO using a 7-C attack against the Heroes, especially when their own dura is 8-A. That attack was over 20x their own dura and even the 8-A energy Jeanist took injured him so much that he couldn't move his body. He needed to use his Quirk to move around and was impaled by AFO seconds later by a far smaller blast that came from his finger.

Endeavor takes the same Air Cannon to the face by Shigaraki, and he sent back but is only slightly injured. A standard Air Cannon with no Quirks backing it up goes straight through him, while Endeavor takes it with very little damage.

We literally don't even know what AFO used on Jeanist as air cannon doesn't work by pointing at people with your finger.

 

[Earthyboy]

We literally don't even know what AFO used on Jeanist as air cannon doesn't work by pointing at people with your finger.

What you're basically saying here is that AFO went all out on Jeanist, even though there's no concrete evidence against this.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The 7-B All Might feat has been determined to use CAPE only until further notice. Therefore we can count it as a feat. There's three 7-B/Low 7-B feats that make AFO's feat an outlier. Making the Top Tiers 7-C literally contradicts several feats all because of one feat. The 7-C feat is THE DEFINITION of an outlier.

It's not like Jeanist is scalable to AFO to begin with. AFO is a Top Tier character. Some of the Top 10 aren't even comparable to AFO as shown with Endeavor.

The movies showing higher feats then what's shown in the manga and show LITERALLY do nothing to effect the 7-B/Low 7-B feats. The manga has a 7-B feat anyways. You're argument is basically an association fallacy.

Have you ever considered the fact that maybe the 7-C feat is an outlier? Because when you have several 7-B/Low 7-B feats prior to the 7-C one, maybe the 7-C one would be an outlier? It's not even illogical to assume that Endeavor is a much stronger character then Jeanist because he outright took an Air Canon to the fact with minimal damage. while Jeanist was nearly killed and pushed back, even when he was far away from it.

Why is CAPE used for AM though I thought he drew the clouds to the area instead of spawning them.

Yes Jeanist isn't scalable to AFO and Endeavor at best downscales but why is Jeanist so much weaker that he'd get one shot by any attack that can harm Endeavor?

How does CAPE determine the size of the storm?

Endeavor took a basic Air Cannon that scales below Tomura's physicals and even other High Ends (such as Hood's) based on the lack of damage it did. The fact that Jeanist took AFO's Air Cannon and immediately concluded AFO was an AM tier opponent makes it apparent to me AFO used the enhanced version on Jeanist.

What you're basically saying here is that AFO went all out on Jeanist, even though there's no concrete evidence against this.

AFO literally turned a full power Air Cannon on Endeavor and explicitly mentions he was trying to kill Jeanist and the others. It is very much in character for him to go full power on heroes below himself. So yeah you're right no concrete evidence against my claim.

 

[Earthyboy]

Why is CAPE used for AM though I thought he drew the clouds to the area instead of spawning them.

Yes Jeanist isn't scalable to AFO and Endeavor at best downscales but why is Jeanist so much weaker that he'd get one shot by any attack that can harm Endeavor?

How does CAPE determine the size of the storm?

Endeavor took a basic Air Cannon that scales below Tomura's physicals and even other High Ends (such as Hood's) based on the lack of damage it did. The fact that Jeanist took AFO's Air Cannon and immediately concluded AFO was an AM tier opponent makes it apparent to me AFO used the enhanced version on Jeanist.

AFO literally turned a full power Air Cannon on Endeavor and explicitly mentions he was trying to kill Jeanist and the others. It is very much in character for him to go full power on heroes below himself. So yeah you're right no concrete evidence against my claim.

The problem with AFO's air canon is that there's evidence he was going all out. It's even stated he had a way stronger combination of quirks then the ones he used against the Top 10. He WAS purposely holding back. Not only that, the feat would still be an outlier compared to everything else.

It's stated that the air pressure rose to form the clouds. That's why we use the CAPE value. And the thing we use to determine the size of the storm is the horizon viewing distance which is 20km.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The problem with AFO's air canon is that there's evidence he was going all out. It's even stated he had a way stronger combination of quirks then the ones he used against the Top 10. He WAS purposely holding back. Not only that, the feat would still be an outlier compared to everything else.

It's stated that the air pressure rose to form the clouds. That's why we use the CAPE value. And the thing we use to determine the size of the storm is the horizon viewing distance which is 20km.

He never said he he had a stronger combo (unless you mean his final attack which was literally an ultimate move like Howitzer Impact and we see him push AM back with Air Cannon and even clash with him).

So the storm covered 20km?

 

[Earthyboy]

He never said he he had a stronger combo (unless you mean his final attack which was literally an ultimate move like Howitzer Impact and we see him push AM back with Air Cannon and even clash with him).

So the storm covered 20km?

His final combo was actually just his quirks at full power. That combo is something All Might managed to fight against even with the last embers of One For All, proving that both of them were holding back. And yes, the storm covered 20km.

 

[Metalballrun]

Where are we up to right now? Do we need to resort to making a list of every single feat out of Endeavor and Shigaraki, and seeing what makes the most sense?

Tbh making a respect thread doesn't sound so bad, only that someone has to make an effort into creating one since the ones on reddit are incomplete.

Unsure if it's been brought up, but AFO used enhancers in the anime for his Air Cannon that hit Jeanist and the rest. Although of course, this is an anime-only scene filling up the intentionally gapped scene in the manga. I've seen calculations like the Machia's now-rejected mountain-razing feat using the anime-added scene as justification, so I suppose it's fine to point this out.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

His final combo was actually just his quirks at full power. That combo is something All Might managed to fight against even with the last embers of One For All, proving that both of them were holding back. And yes, the storm covered 20km.

His final combo composed of several other quirks he never used like Rivets and Spearlike Bones on top of everything but Air Cannon so no he wasn't restricting his quirks. Heck if he was restricting them why use multiple? AM bled and his bones broke in their clash AFO was clearly stronger especially since he forced him back.

How do we know it's 20km again?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

How strong would this be btw?

 

[Earthyboy]

His final combo composed of several other quirks he never used like Rivets and Spearlike Bones on top of everything but Air Cannon so no he wasn't restricting his quirks. Heck if he was restricting them why use multiple? AM bled and his bones broke in their clash AFO was clearly stronger especially since he forced him back.

How do we know it's 20km again?

But the thing is, even with the combo AFO used, All might was still able to hold in a power struggle even with all the quirks against him. He only severely bled after AFO used impact recoil on him to turn his own AP against him. And this was All Might with the last embers of One For All.

We know the storm is 20km because of the horizon distance which we can assume to be 20km at the very least.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Is there another panel that shows the results or is that all there is?

 

[Earthyboy]

Tbh making a respect thread doesn't sound so bad, only that someone has to make an effort into creating one since the ones on reddit are incomplete.

Unsure if it's been brought up, but AFO used enhancers in the anime for his Air Cannon that hit Jeanist and the rest. Although of course, this is an anime-only scene filling up the intentionally gapped scene in the manga. I've seen calculations like the Machia's now-rejected mountain-razing feat using the anime-added scene as justification, so I suppose it's fine to point this out.

So, his Air Canon was only ever amped in the anime? Therefor it can be classified as non canon filler, correct?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Is there another panel that shows the results or is that all there is?

We never get a clear scene afterwards.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

We never get a clear scene afterwards.

Can we use the Anime for a reference?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

But the thing is, even with the combo AFO used, All might was still able to hold in a power struggle even with all the quirks against him. He only severely bled after AFO used impact recoil on him to turn his own AP against him. And this was All Might with the last embers of One For All.

We know the storm is 20km because of the horizon distance which we can assume to be 20km at the very least.

This same All Might was getting flung around bruised by Air Cannon. The same punches AM used to counter Air Cannon were also harming AFO and cause him to start swaying after two blows to the head.

We don't know if the storm covered the entire 20km or do we get a shot of the horizon showing it all covered by storm clouds?

Can we use the Anime for a reference?

Sure but we can't get a value from the shockwave?

 

[Metalballrun]

So, his Air Canon was only ever amped in the anime? Therefor it can be classified as non canon filler, correct?

I've seen scans and scenes from the anime (that wasn't in the manga) being used as reference for calcs, with the most similar example being Machia's feat that I mentioned (Machia was shown slapping the ground in the anime, no such scene in the manga. The calc was only rejected recently because even the anime scene does not indicate that Machia performed the feat with one hit).

So being consistent with what we've been doing all this time, no, this certain scene can still be considered as a valid supplementary material as it does not present any huge contradictions nor is it an entirely new scene altogether. It is just an extended version of the manga scene.

 

[Earthyboy]

This same All Might was getting flung around bruised by Air Cannon. The same punches AM used to counter Air Cannon were also harming AFO and cause him to start swaying after two blows to the head.

We don't know if the storm covered the entire 20km or do we get a shot of the horizon showing it all covered by storm clouds?

There's evidence All Might was holding back here. All For One himself stated he wasn't fighting at full power. Bakugo also stated All Might was having trouble because he was in the way, implying he couldn't fight at full power because there was a risk Bakugo would get injured. All For One also stated that the attacks from earlier were only meant to wear All Might down and not pack much oomph. Further proving that neither characters were even at full power before AFO's quirk combo.

 

[Earthyboy]

How strong would this be btw?

Would it be okay to assume that a crater was formed there?

 

[TheRustyOne]

That attack is 8-A and has to be cut in half since it was made by AFO and All Might clash.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

There's evidence All Might was holding back here. All For One himself stated he wasn't fighting at full power. Bakugo also stated All Might was having trouble because he was in the way, implying he couldn't fight at full power because there was a risk Bakugo would get injured. All For One also stated that the attacks from earlier were only meant to wear All Might down and not pack much oomph. Further proving that neither characters were even at full power before AFO's quirk combo.

That's fair but that doesn't support your argument much as you're arguing AM and AFO were fighting at around 1% the whole time.

 

[TheRustyOne]

So I have to ask, the problem with Kamino AFO and All Might being Low 7-B+ is because the Air Cannon was calc at 7-C, am I getting that part correct?

Is that the basis for this or is there more?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So I have to ask, the problem with Kamino AFO and All Might being Low 7-B+ is because the Air Cannon was calc at 7-C, am I getting that part correct?

Is that the basis for this or is there more?

It also creates a ridiculously huge divide between some characters and the only 7B feat in the show seems to assume the storm AM made is 20km

 

[TheRustyOne]

Between who?

The storm is likely to be 20 km in the manga, and it's definitely 20 km in the anime which shows the scene better.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Between who?

The storm is likely to be 20 km in the manga, and it's definitely 20 km in the anime which shows the scene better.

Jeanist, Ryukyu, Nejire and Bakugou to name some.

Which part in the anime shows the horizon?