Illumina Major Downgrade Part 2

[JJSliderman]

They could just not know what it is when looking at it and don't really pay attention or take note of it.

Just cuz they see these galaxies in the sky above doesn't mean they're part of the world. Going back to Emerald Coast, you only see them before you fix the world, after which they're covered up, indicating they're not part of the actual dream world.

 

[Theuser789]

Are they covered by clouds? Than it just means that they can't see them because it's covered. You can't normaly see galaxies from Earth, Illumina also specificaly says that dreams have stars.

You need to prove that the dreams are transparente, this feels like a headcanon

 

[JJSliderman]

They're not covered by clouds, the sky literally changes into a blue sky right after the world is restored and erases the dark space influence from the world you can only see before that happens.

Same thing happens in the Fire Bird level.

 

[Theuser789]

Because the world is better, you can't normaly see galaxies from the sky.

It's even said that the worlds are partial in the game?

 

[JJSliderman]

If you can't even see the galaxies in the worlds unless they're busted, then that implies the galaxies weren't part of the worlds originally.

 

[Theuser789]

You need to prove that the worlds were united because of the destruction, we can't see it because normaly we can't see galaxies from Earth, it's simple

 

[JJSliderman]

The worlds weren't united because of the destruction, they were united because they were always clustered with each other since the 4th Dimension Space is a dreamworld nexus.

If we can't see the galaxies then that doesn't really prove they're separate universes, it just proves that we can't see them and they could be either part of one universe or separate ones, and the former is more likely given that Maginaryworld was already established as a container of all these dream worlds.

 

[Theuser789]

They are in the same area, but they aren't clustered with each other, they all exist separately, I already explaneid that they can be all universes and still be contained, in Marginary World

They can't be part of separate ones because they exist separately, just because they are on the same place doesn't mean that they share anything, we have no proof that those galaxies aren't part of one world, they exist separately

 

[JJSliderman]

I think the burden of proof is on you to show they're separate universes and not fragments of one universe given Maginaryworld is described as a dream nexus, none of them are overtly universe sized, and the one thing that might prove they are universe sized disappears from the actual world upon it being healed, indicating the damage to the Dream World is what allows the viewing of the galaxies and not that they're part of the Dream World.

 

[Theuser789]

I already explaneid that the dreams can still be universes and still be on Marginary World.

Except that Illumina's dream is one, they are all refered to world when they contain more than a planet ( Also Marginary World is also refers as a world in the same game)

The damage allow for them being able to see more than the planet they were in the same world, Lummina would mention that the barrier between worlds was being broken if Sonic and Co. could see part of other worlds, she only says that Marginary World Will disapear, you need to prove that the barrier between worlds was broken

 

[JJSliderman]

The fact that you can see the world beyond isn't natural. If the stars were part of the world, you could still see them in the sky, just very faintly, but here you straight up cannot see them after the world is restored, which shows that the worlds don't actually contain a bunch of stars or galaxies and the only time you see them is the ones in 4th Dimension space, the only overtly space-like environment in the entire game.

Ergo, the worlds are just fragments of a universe that contain a star at most and are nexused in 4D space which contains most of the actual stars and galaxies (which use the same graphic as the ones in the dreamworlds).

 

[Theuser789]

You can't see stars normaly in day time in every Sonic game, does this means that Sonic universe is a pocket dimension?

Maybe they can see the stars because the world is broken and when It fixes It works normaly we don't see stars because we never see them in day time in a Sonic game, and Shadow linked in this thread a statment from Lummina that she specificaly says that the dreams have stars in them, we also see a Sun.

The 4th dimension doesn't have day or night time, that's why we see more clearly.

The worlds aren't fragments of a universe, that was never stated ever in the game, they having the same gráfica is just a design choice, It doesn't mean much

 

[JJSliderman]

The 4th Dimension doesn't have day or night time because it is literally space and the "universe" of Maginaryworld's universe.

All the other Dreamworlds are just planets/star-planet hybrids. because they make up Maginaryworld, they're not just contained within it.

Where is the statements of dreams having stars outside the cutscenes showing the damaged dream worlds

 

[Genericstickman]

It was stated that the dreams were being shattered into pieces if that's anything useful

 

[Genericstickman]

Well technically scattering not shattering

 

[Theuser789]

It:s not realy the space of the Marginary World, can you prove all that you said? it sounds like headcanon, and I already explaneid with multiple comparassions how each dream can be a universe and still be part of Marginary World.

Here's the statment:https://youtu.be/_ZF1woNdNdQ?t=13m15s

Also the dreams aren't conected even though they are in Marginary World, Lummina needs to open a portal so that Sonic and Co. can go to the next world

 

[JJSliderman]

It's called 4th Dimension SPACE, it looks very space-y, it's where all the dreams, constellations and galaxies are located, etc.

The statement doesn't prove the dreamworlds have stars, it's just flowery language.

And all the dreams are themed around the Sonic characters and are their dreams and no one else which shows dreams must be clustered together to some extent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, theUser789 is repeatedly using the same arguments over and over that are constantly rejected. He's also literally argued against the scan that only says Maginary World; aka the entirety of it is the only thing stated to be a universe. He's also been kudosing his own posts which is usually a sign of trolling. All the other dreams have never been stated to be universes are are all miniscule compared to 4D Space or the rest of Maginary World. 4D Space is also the only dream that could be argued universe sized, but that's because it's like the outer space connecting each dream.

The Mario 64 example also isn't the best. All those paintings are just magic portals that teleport you to other parts in the Mushroom Kingdom. Anyway, all the staff members who participated have agreed with the downgrade for both the Tier and for speed since Illumina has no reason to be Immeasurable. And there was also several abilities that were agreed to be removed such as Time Manipulation.

 

[JJSliderman]

Probably the most relevant thing to come out of this is that the Sonic cosmology should be expanded to include these other dimensions where the dreams of Maginaryworld came from a la the cutscene.

As for Illumina I agree she should be downgraded to Universal+ but idk about speed.

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean the dreams are stated to be scattering into pieces and they also have galaxies in them

 

[ShakeResounding]

I don't remember Immeasurable being brought up whatsoever except for the original OP. Everybody's been arguing over primarily AP ever since about 150 posts in the original thread, not speed or hax (unless I missed something, cuz I stopped following this)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's mainly because the Tier was the main thing being defended; everyone agreed with Time Manipulation being removed due to lack of proof. And Illumina hasn't really demonstrated Time Travel among other things and her best feat was just her flying across space. Cal mentioned it and there was no argument against it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think Void Manipulation and a thing or two were still being argued over, but I wasn't really involved there and I'm not sure if they wanna argue for it.

While I still heavily disagree with the downgrade, there's nothing I can add to the conversation without sounding repetetive. Barely anybody wants to be a part of this anymore, and that includes me. This "desperate fan" is getting outta here.

 

[Theuser789]

DDM I am not a troll, I only Kudoes my comments because other people in this thread have done the same, I can stop doing that. You are also using ad hominem by calling me a troll

Illumina is not using flowery language, she's not the type of person to do that. Just because the 4th dimension is called space doesn't mean that each dream is like a planet in it, this is completely unsurported

I already explaneid with my comparassions how each dream can be a universe and still be contained in Marginary World, they aren't minuscule inside of it.

The paintings in 64 don't teleport to other parts of the Mushroom Kingdom, they are worlds contained inside it, there's also my Mania and the special zones comparassion

The galaxies aren't only in the 4th dimension, unless you are impleing that they can see it from a dream or they travel to it everytime there's a minigame, even though every character reacts as if they never been on the 4th dimension when they are travelling through It.

The dreams have been stated to be worlds in a game where that only meant universe, the word was only used in the meaning universe in this game

The scan never says that only Marginary World is a universe, It says that Marginary World is a universe but not that it is the only one, there's a big diference between the two,and I never argued against it, one of my points is that since Marginary World is a dream and is stated to be a universe than the other dreams are to universes, don't put words in my mouth DDM

And not all dreams are themed around Sonic and Co. JJ, we see much more than 4 dreams in the 4th dimension, we only visit their dreams because they are the main characters, they aren't clustered next to each other, Lummina needs to open portals so that they can go to other dreams, they exist separately

 

[Theuser789]

I also give up, arguing like this gives me tremendous anxiety and I feel like I can't convince anyone to be against the downgrade.

I am out, you can aply the downgrade even though plenty of people disagree with it

 

[The_Smashor]

Well, I guess I have to step up to the plate, then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Maginary World is still the only "World" stated to be a Universe, but no other dream inside has ever been stated to be universe period. It doesn't have to outright say "Maginary World is the only dream that is a universe", it's just a clear cut fact that Maginary World in its entirety is the only part that has full out confirmation on being a Universe. They were stated to be dimensions or worlds, but those never have consistent meanings and have also meant pocket reality. But, 4th Dimension Space has been shown to be the only outer space which shows it connects the other worlds. And JJ brought up good points that the stars and/or galaxy in Tails Dream could simply be from 4th Dimension Space where it's light enough to be visible from said dreams rather than them literally being inside them. Each dream is literally shown to look like bubbles from the inside of 4th Dimension Space. But either way, unless a remake or something rewords individual dream worlds as being entire universes; or at least one of them that isn't Maginary World, it shouldn't be used.

And yes, I will take care of the parts that were agreed, but I want to hear Cal's for a few of the abilities he had problem with.

 

[The_Smashor]

Well, boys, I got nothing. Unless anyone has a counterarguement to that then I think 2-B Sonic has officially exploded in the hanger.

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean it still shows that the precious stone has the potential to make dreams as big as universes (also the dreams inside of Maginary World are pocket dimensions

 

[Theuser789]

I just want to point out there is no proof that those stars or galaxies are from the 4th dimension, it's never implied in anyway or form and it's pure headcanon, she also says that the Phoenix in the dream will fly between stars which wouldn't make sense if it's from the 4th dimension unless objects from the dreams can fly out of it.

Each dream is represented as a projections on a screen not bubbles.

And I already explaneid that Marginary World being the only one to be called a universe doesn't mean that the other worlds aren't universes, and in this game the words "worlds" and "dimension" where only refered to universe, nothing more.

This is my last comment, Smashor can defend against the downgrade If he wants to

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, that's a pretty good counterargument. Yeah, the Phoenix flying between stars completely disproves the whole "Light from the 4th dimension" thing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, World has often meant planet; World or Dimension meant Universe in Sonic Rush for sure, but in most Sonic games such as Sonic Battle or Sonic Unleashed, or Sonic Adventure, World meant planet in all those games. Dimension did often mean universe, but it doesn't always mean Universe. Dimension has also meant pocket reality in a few other Sonic Games.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I just want to point out tales said there like projections on a screen well what we actually see runs country to that discrption. Also even if the skys (hence the stars in it) were part of the dream it would only be 4-A for the size of the dimension, just having stars in the sky had never been enough to justify being universe sized for a pocket dimension. And as I've said before world is a term used in such a variety of ways that it's use alone can't give an object universe size. (End of the world had literally everything there was being destroyed, so even discounting end of the world being a common phrase it refers to somthing different then universe in that use)

 

[Theuser789]

When in Sonic Shuffle do we see the word mean anything other than universe? What matters is the usage of the word in this game.

What we see doesn't go against Tails description, and his word is realible, he is one of the most inteligente characters in the franchise.

In the level End of the World we don't see everything be destroyed, only the other levels of 06

 

[Theuser789]

Well since someone changed Illumina's rating without warning even though multiple people disagreed with it this thread needs to be closed

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Well since someone changed Illumina's rating without warning even though multiple people disagreed with it this thread needs to be closed

Frankly all your resones have been debunked several times and you just keep restating them as If they hadn't been, and the mod suw that, you had also said before that edit was made that you had made your last comment and left it to smasher to continue, DDM countered the only point in your agument in that post that actually effected anything then made the edit. If you didn't intent to leave the debate you shouldn't have said you would...

 

[Theuser789]

I literaly made a post responding to DDM coment after that, and he still didn't prove that the words dimension and world meant anything other than universe in Shuffle.

And my points hadn't been debunked, I explaneid multiple times how Marginary World can be a universe and all dreams as well.

I would at least liked that my final post had been responder before making such a big edit, there's also the fact that way morre people disagreed with the downgrade

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1/3 I do agree, I feel the page was changed prematurely, however I disagree i do think it was more then proven it could mean other things, history of the franchise is very important for determening termalolgy, as your interpretation involves saying 1 thing world and dimension are used to refer to scales in size to every other thing it's used to refer to when it's used in the series as a whole to refer to many things


1/3 On the topic of many more people disagreeing with the downgrade, this wiki has never been about just a vote, then it would be a popularity contest, most of those people that were against the downgrade had no given resone to be, and no matter what numbers don't matter it's the logic behind them that do.


2 and well you explane how it 'could be' you constantly pushed the burden of proof to prove it was to the other side to prove it's not. Your only prove is that just because only it is called a universe doesn't mean the others aren't, that doesn't 'prove' anything, it doesn't prove the other dreams are the size of a universe, you have to prove that yet you constantly tryed to push the burden of proof to the other side to disprove it instead of you proving it.

 

[Theuser789]

The history isn't important when the lore of Shuffle wasn't referenced in any other game except Shuffle, and dimension has always meant universe in Sonic

The logic of the downgrade isn't solid, don't delude yourself.

I push the burden of proof because nothing in the game implies that Marginary World or Illumina's dream is special them the others, Occam's razor would imply that every dream has the same characteristcs and qualitys

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There have literally been over 800 posts discussing this. And there have been multiple Admins who approved of the downgrade; Cal, SomebodyData, Everlasting, Matt, Me, AKM Sama, and Antvasima also said he agreed on his wall. It wasn't premature but rather that the discussion has been far too ongoing and the staff members involved have also said their saying. We also literally explained to you the details and also pointed out how Dimension and World being to inconsistent. Infinity's dimension feat wasn't considered universal. And Sonic Mania stuff I recall being discussed and debunked that those portals were universes.

Vote counts are also not the answer; this is a quality over quantity website for a reason. And the knowledgeable staff members are much more informed regarding the definition of Worlds and Dimensions; so our points still stand. Maginary World is the only universe confirmed in Sonic Shuffle and none of the individual sub-dimensions inside are even remotely stated to be universes. It has just has much weight has Light World and Dark World from Hyrule being universes which were rejected.

Anyway, the Tier changes and the speed were already agreed among the staff and Time Manipulation was the first thing everyone agreed to be removed. But I recall Cal also agreeing with Conceptual Manipulation or Abstract Existence being removed. Void Manipulation had more debate but I wanted to here his thoughts.