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Illumina Major Downgrade Part 2

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Cal is once again being the one reasonable here; and the entire thread is going in circles left and right. Anyway, the scans clearly state that only the Maginary World is the Universe. And each of the seperate Dream Worlds are simply fragments of the Maginary World. This is what the scans all clearly state.
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I really don't want to come off a rude but have you read any of my arguments?Your ignoring literally the entire idea of Maginary World being 2-B.

-Illumina's dream is Maginary World which is universe in size.All the other beings dreaming should have their dreams be Universe in size as well as nothing contradicts or says other wise and this is an accurate depiction due to simple scaling.The dreams exist separately like pocket realities as to why the dreams can fit into Maginaryworld World as stated by Lumina.
 
@Darkmon That note has to do with trying to have people jump tiers in tier 2 because of multipliers. So someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C isn't 2-C, or someone infinitely stronger than a 2-C isn't 2-A. Being able to destroy countless universes is 2-B.
 
I've read your arguments and Cal is stating those points 100%. Maginary world is Illumina's Dream and is the very dream containing those other dreams and is the only dream actually proven or stated to be an entire universe. Therefor, Illumina's Dream/Maginary World is a Universe and everyone else's is much smaller.
 
No. Burden of proof is on you. I don't need to prove anything, because I'm not the one trying to prove a positive. You guys need to prove that each dream is the size of a universe. "They exist separately from Maginaryworld" is blatantly untrue from what we've seen. So prove Lush Jungle or Phoenix or any of the dreams are universal in size and scope. Not Maginaryworld, the dreams that are inferior to Maginaryworld.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I've read your arguments and Cal is stating those points 100%. Maginary world is Illumina's Dream and is the very dream containing those other dreams and is the only dream actually proven or stated to be an entire universe. Therefor, Illumina's Dream/Maginary World is a Universe and everyone else's is much smaller.
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When they exist separately they're sizes don't matter as they exist separately from Maginary World.Cna you prove that Maginary World is larger than other dreams other than just headcanon?
 
If literally every other dream physically fits inside the Maginary World like the very context of the intro says it does, then why wouldn't it be smaller? It isn't headcanon, it's a 100% hammered in the ground fact. They're only separated from each other, they aren't separated from Maginary World. They are literally contained inside it.
 
I also agree with medusa, this all hengese on that statment, and after seeing it, it clearly ment separate from eachother, not maginary world.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If literally every other dream physically fits inside the Maginary World like the very context of the intro says it does, then why wouldn't it be smaller? It isn't headcanon, it's a 100% hammered in the ground fact. They're only separated from each other, they aren't separated from Maginary World. They are literally contained inside it.
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They've been consistently been shown to be pocket dimensions
 
@stickman As the hub for all of those 'pocket dimensions'(people keep saying that but I'm not sure exactly what the reasoning is) maginary would already be unique among the dreams, and as such it's size shouldn't scale.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If literally every other dream physically fits inside the Maginary World like the very context of the intro says it does, then why wouldn't it be smaller? It isn't headcanon, it's a 100% hammered in the ground fact. They're only separated from each other, they aren't separated from Maginary World. They are literally contained inside it.
Click to expand...
Then how come they exist separately from each other? As that makes no sense
 
Oblivion

The statement clearly ment that the dreams were separated from eachother, but there still inside Maginary world.
 
Alright,I'm done debating this topic and don't really care anymore as it's stressful and I'm dealing with some....other stuff IRL,no one's ever gonna change their mind so I cave in and won't debate anymore as this is getting out of hand.I don't care about upgrading Sonic as I already have a 2-A version that's infinitely more powerful than game Sonic I honestly just am here for accuracy but It's clear my point won't get through no matter what so a I give up.Just know I'm against the downgrade for my reasons posted above.Last thing I want to say is that I do know that the Sonic fandom is quite awful and I just want to disassociate myself with those groups whom wank it.I hope a conclusion is reached soon.

See you all later
 
Kind of only tangentially related but. It's stated Maginaryworld was created from the dreams of those from other dimensions.

Maybe the number of alternate dimensions in particular could be looked at, idk? We know Blaze's dimensions exists but clearly they're talking about multiple other dimensions (which would probably also be affected by Solaris).

Although looking into it, considering all the dreams do share a very similar starry sky, I think it might be safe to assume they are all part of one universe. They're called Dreamworlds, and world typically means planet or universe in this series.

Idk that's just my contribution.
 
I guess what I'm thinking is maybe Illumina could be downgraded but Solaris could maybe still get buffed to some capacity due to the existence of these alternate dimensions supplying the dreams to Maginaryworld.

Or something.
 
I'm with Oblivion here. I'm very much against the downgrade but these threads have just been endlessly going in circles and I am simply tired of debating this topic. I want to move on. Just take Low 2-C if that's what you agree with because I will be jumping ship.

Goodbye.
 
Well it feels like the 2 people heavily against the down grade sorta...left, can someone come here and evaluate the arguments that were made? And possibly JJS's sense he just got here (I don't quite get what he means in some bits but it doesn't seem like utter non sense to me either)
 
The other dimensions part is in the game itself in a cutscene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZF1woNdNdQ 3:41.

And this was made before the storybook games or Rush were even conceived.

Granted the number of dimensions in general is probably unquantifiable and it wouldn't apply to Illumina since this is outside the dream world but it's something.

As for Illumina I think I'm fine with downgrading to Low 2-C based on Maginaryworld being a universe and nexus for all the dreams which could probably be seen as planets or something.

Actually what about the Fourth Dimension Space stuff, how would that apply?
 
Although everything about this downgrade is wrong and the reasonings are quite bad and I believe Oblivion and Shadow make the best case here but it's clear the one's in support won't see our view point and we won't see theirs so it's just best to end this.I want this done with and I don't care about this accuracy any more I cave in as well.

I guess I can use 2-B Sonic when debating with my freinds....

Oblivion also DM'd me telling me that he upgrade has really brought out the worst in him and that he hopes he doesn't appear as a person whom wanks Sonic just for an upgrade like he appeared with the 3-A Triforce.

Any ways good bye
 
Neon, what you need to understand is the people on the other side genuinely disagree with you, they disagree with your first Paragraph, no one is trying to be biased, they just see things in a different way.
 
Actually, no, some dream worlds are definitely bigger than planets. Emerald Coast contains a star. So...

Yeah I guess world can mean either planet, universe, or place with a star, idk.
 
Darkmon cns said:
Neon, what you need to understand is the people on the other side genuinely disagree with you, they disagree with your first Paragraph, no one is trying to be biased, they just see things in a different way.
Click to expand...
The thing is they disagree for all the wrong reasons as they don't understand the viewpoint being presented as to why I don't care about The accuracy anymore.And I'll likely just use 2-B Sonic when debating in real life.
 
I have asked Antvasima about the thread, and he says that he think the Real Cal Howard, Zamasu, ect are the ones making the most sense and he supports Illumina being downgraded to Low 2-C.
 
I still disagree with the downgrade, Cal and Zamasu arguments were rejected in the past for the same reasons that Oblivion and Shadow have been defending, the only thing that changed is Sonic being upgraded

The 4th dimension doesn't conect to the dreams like outer space does to planets, it's made from the dreams.

The galaxy is in all worlds, not just one, it appears everytime there's a minigame
 
@Dark

Evidence? You can't just say things and expect us to beleive them. You can have us unable to comment where you and Ant talked or something, but I'd like bona fide evidence. I beleive you, but I've also come too far to take any risks.
 
You still need to disprove the fact that the dreams aren't pocket dimension universes (you could've with the fact that the American manual implying the precious stone being created after Maginary World but that's not stated in the Japanese manual)
 
The Smashor said:
@Dark

Evidence? You can't just say things and expect us to beleive them. You can have us unable to comment where you and Ant talked or something, but I'd like bona fide evidence. I beleive you, but I've also come too far to take any risks.
Click to expand...
He's saying the truth, it's on Ant's wall
 
Genericstickman said:
You still need to disprove the fact that the dreams aren't pocket dimension universes (you could've with the fact that the American manual implying the precious stone being created after Maginary World but that's not stated in the Japanese manual)
Click to expand...
Burden of proof is on you my guy :/
 
Well Illumina's dream is a universe and they form the 4th dimension, but this was already discussed, most of the staff is in favor of the downgrade sadly
 
Burden of proof is on you my guy :/

Maginary World is stated to be a dream

the dreams inside of Maginary World are stated to be dreams

Maginary World is stated to be a universe

dreams inside Maginary World are consistently shown to be pocket dimensions
 
That's an assumption and an Undistributed middle Fallacy. You can't assume they're all the same just because they're called dreams when they clergy have different qualities.
 
What are the different qualities?

A middle fallacy isn't that, we have not seem in Shuffle a dream be diferent from another in it's qualities, prove that Illumina's dream is special I am not making a middle point between two extremes, I am just saying that all dreams have the same characteristcs, Marginary World is even said to be made from the dreams of everything
 
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