Ichibe Hyosube Hax Downgrade

[Xerkser500]

After getting involved in a Yhwach thread, Ichibe's ability to remove and give names to others was brought up as being accepted as Conceptual Manipulation here. I find the justification for this to be kind of fishy, so when asking why its treated as such and getting feedback, this is what I was told:

"Ichibe manipulates the concept of things by changing their names. He "turned" Yhwach into an ant, giving him the strength and abilities of an ant despite that he didn't changed physically."

Can someone give me more clarification on this please? Because the way im seeing this, this isnt really conceptual manipulation but simply changing something about the target to effect them.

How does changing the name of something mean you are manipulating the concept of it? Going by the above example, things dont add up. Yhwach wasn't turned into a literal ant at all just because he was given the name "Ant" by Ichibe. His strength simply was made into the strength of an ant. What's stopping me from saying this isnt just extremely good stat reduction or power null (which this ability is also considered as)? That because Yhwach was branded with the name "Ant", his strength becomes that of an ant, therefore decreasing it?

Unless we're going to say that Yhwach himself is a concept, im not seeing how or why this abilitiy is on a conceptual level. Ichibe doesnt, and certainly has never, changed the concept of human beings as a whole just by changing the name of 1 individual. Or change the concept of X to just change Y. He simply changes the targets names and they are effected in accordance to it. Yhwach's name was changed to Ant and he became as powerless as one as a result. So i'd like more explanation of this please or else I request a downgrade.

 

[MachTwo]

That where you get thing wrong, everything has a concept, and that's exactly what ichibei do, he change concept of X to change Y thus X will know have Y power, he gave you the concept of ant thus you become as helpless as one and you know what ichibei it's even the only person who have concept hax via manipulating names, several people in Touhou Project have one via manipulating names

Futen Taisatsuryo

 

[Xerkser500]

First of all, IDK what Touhou Project is but if they have the exact same thing, they should also have theirs downgraded if anything.

Second of all, "everything has a concept" seems to be very exaggerated in this case. "The Concept of Yhwach" shouldnt suddenly be equivalant to a generalized concept like say time, space, death, or even human beings as a whole. What makes "The Concept of Yhwach" an actual concept? Unless Yhwach is suddenly given the Adam & Eve kind of treatment, he is not a concept in the sense of an actual concept.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What Ichibe does is change the concept of what something actually is rather than what it is called. For example, Ichibe could call a lion a chihuahua but that doesn't make it one. But when he "renames" it with his ink, the lion is, for all intents and purposes beyond its appearance, a tiny mutt that people stuff in their bags.

 

[Xerkser500]

Also, that scan for Futen Taisatsuryo probably should have been added to his page to give more support for context.

Because of the "Return to nothingness part", I dont have issues with it now.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Jesus dude his power is to manipulate the concept of names and word. I can tell you didn't even both to look at the Conceptual manipulation page like at all.

 

[MachTwo]

Because concept is an abstract idea, or base for everything, there are concept of life, death, human, rock, gold, silver etc If the idea of human, rock, gold, silver don't exist, how the hell you can tell what is rock and what is gold? and Ichibei its not only affected The Concept of 1 person, he literally named everything in soul society.

 

[Xerkser500]

What Ichibe does is change the concept of what something actually is rather than what it is called. For example, Ichibe could call a lion a chihuahua but that doesn't make it one. But when he "renames" it with his ink, the lion is, for all intents and purposes beyond its appearance, a tiny mutt that people stuff in their bags.

But in that sense, he is not really changing any kind of concept though because both a lion and a chihuahua are both still furry animals in the end.

My issue with this is that Ichibe isn't changing the actual concept of what the target is when renaming them. Like in your example, if Ichibei renames a Lion a Chihuahua, he isnt changing all lions into chihuahuas, just that specific lion. Just like how Ichibei doesnt change all humans into ants, or give them the strength of ants, all because he renames Yhwach an Ant.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Bruh

 

[AnonymousBlank]

But in that sense, he is not really changing any kind of concept though because both a lion and a chihuahua are both still furry animals in the end.

My issue with this is that Ichibe isn't changing the actual concept of what the target is when renaming them. Like in your example, if Ichibei renames a Lion a Chihuahua, he isnt changing all lions into chihuahuas, just that specific lion. Just like how Ichibei doesnt change all humans into ants, or give them the strength of ants, all because he renames Yhwach an Ant.

I don't even need to read anymore. Are you honestly telling be that there is no difference between a lion and a chihuahua?

He isn't renaming all lions chihuahuas, he is renaming that specific lion a chihuahua. Much like how he changed Yhwach from Yhwach to Black Ant. Humans had nothing to do with the renaming process and why would Ichibe even do that when it serves no purposes. Thats like shooting a nuke at a fly and vaping everything around instead of just swatting just it.

 

[Xerkser500]

Because concept is an abstract idea, or base for everything, there are concept of life, death, human, rock, gold, silver etc
If the idea of human, rock, gold, silver don't exist, how the hell you can tell what is rock and what is gold? and Ichibei its not only affected The Concept of 1 person, he literally named everything in soul society.

"Literally naming everything in soul society" is assuming that Ichibei named all of what makes up the Soul Society at once.

Which is never proven to be the case.

 

[MachTwo]

My issue with this is that Ichibe isn't changing the actual concept of what the target is when renaming them. Like in your example, if Ichibei renames a Lion a Chihuahua, he isnt changing all lions into chihuahuas, just that specific lion. Just like how Ichibei doesnt change all humans into ants, or give them the strength of ants, all because he renames Yhwach an Ant.
That was the limits of his ability, doesn't make him don't to have conceptual manipulation, and you know what he can only change name of anything that touches his ink so if you gather all of humanity in one place sure he can change all of their concept at once

Literally king hassan have conceptual manipulation via he can give you the concept of death

 

[Xerkser500]

>I don't even need to read anymore. Are you honestly telling be that there is no difference between a lion and a chihuahua?

In the aspect of what a furry animal is? There isn't. A rabbit, a dog, a cat, they are all "furry animals" and thus fit under the concept of "furry animals". Obviously they are not the same thing when going in specific detail between all of them individually, but that doesnt take away from what they are all generally based around or originating from.

An ocean isnt suddenly completely different from a lake. Both are bodies of water, the only difference being one is absurdly and obviously bigger than the other. An apple isnt different than an orange when talking about "the concept of fruit".

>'He isn't renaming all lions chihuahuas, he is renaming that specific lion a chihuahua.

Which is exactly why im questioning this being conceptual manipulation. Because changing one lion into a "chihuahua" without it effecting all lions as a whole isnt conceptual manipulation.

>Humans had nothing to do with the renaming process

Sure, but this is implying Ichibei can selectively choose to not change an entire concept of what x is, which explicity needs evidence to back up that assumption.

>And why would Ichibe even do that when it serves no purposes. Thats like shooting a nuke at a fly and vaping everything around instead of just swatting just it.

Because, again, that implies Ichibe can selectively choose to not change a concept but just something apart of that concept. Which is your burden of proof to prove he can do.

If he's never affected an entire concept as a whole before, there's no reason to assume he can or selectively choose not to.

 

[MachTwo]

>If he's never affected an entire concept as a whole before, there's no reason to assume he can or selectively choose not to.

So you saying that reality warper need to affected an entire reality as a whole before they are qualified as reality warper? time to downgrade every reality warper that is not low 2-C

 

[Xerkser500]

False Equivalancy

Reality Warping isnt stuck to particularly being on one level. Doesnt matter if you are warping reality across a city or reality across a galaxy. Doing either one, inbetween, less or more would classify you as a reality warper. A reality warper isnt defined as "an entire reality", its defined as warping reality in any way.

Conceptual Manipulation is literally the exact opposite as it's manipulating what an entire concept has influence of. If one claims a character can selectively choose to just change one aspect of a concept instead of the entire concept itself, then you need evidence that they can change the entire concept in the 1st place.

 

[MachTwo]

>If one claims a character can selectively choose to just change one aspect of a concept instead of the entire concept itself, then you need evidence that they can change the entire concept in the 1st place.

What does one need to change entire concept itself so it qualifies as conceptual hax? if that was the case then everyone with concept hax will be Tier 2

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Xerkser

In the aspect of what a furry animal is? There isn't. A rabbit, a dog, a cat, they are all "furry animals" and thus fit under the concept of "furry animals".

Now you're purposely being obtuse. He isn't changing the concept to "furry animal", he is changing it to "chihuahua".

that implies Ichibe can selectively choose to not change a concept but just something apart of that concept. Which is your burden of proof to prove he can do.

I never said he could. You are the one saying he needs to perform the feat (which is in no way related to the feat he does perform) to qualify for concept manip.

And he did manipulate the entire concept of something, the concept of Yhwach. If you take the time to actually read the scans and the concept manip page, you'll realise why he has it.

Can a mod please close this pointless CRT?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Name manip is a subset of concep manipulation. Close thread

 

[Xerkser500]

>Now your purposely being obtuse. He isn't changing the concept to "furry animal", he is changing it to "chihuaua".

Which leads me right back to what was said before. Beyond physical appearance, both are furry animals, so it doesnt matter if Ichibei is changing a lion to a "chihuahua" or to a "rabbit" because no matter the change, the lion is still going to be under the same concept, "furry animals".

Ichibei is not changing any concept in this case, unless you seriously want to consider "lions" and "chihuauas" as concepts in themselves, which as I said before looks extremely exaggerated to just hand a character conceptual manipulation.

>I never said he could. You are the one saying he needs to perform the feat (which is in no way related to the feat he does perform) to qualify for concept manip.

You implied this when saying 'humans had nothing to do with the renaming process, so why would Ichibei do x". By saying that, your implying that Ichibei can selectively choose to not change the concept of people but just Yhwach since the former has nothing to do with the latter in that moment.

To make a claim like that, Ichibei needs evidence that he would be even able to rename an entire concept all together in the 1st place to suggest he can choose not to change it. And that evidence, so far, is non-existent.

>And he did manipulate the entire concept of something, the concept of Yhwach.

And as I brought up before, Yhwach himself is not a concept. He is not the first human in Bleach (like the Adam and Eve treatment), he is not an abstract, he's nothing but an ordinary person who was born from other people, who were born from others, and so on and so forth to be apart of the concept of humans. Renaming and changing who Yhwach is =/= changing the entire concept of human beings and to consider this as such, again, sounds very exaggerated.

Thats like saying anyone with Existence Erasure has conceptual erasure because they're erasing the "concept" of that person from existence. Which is ridiculous.

>If you take the time to actually read the scans and the concept manip page, you'll realise why he has it.

I did. 3x. And literally nothing on the concept manipulation page says anything about it being able to be used in the way Ichibei supposedly uses it. If anything, it says the exact opposite.

So unless im reading something that im not fully understanding, you'll be better off pointing out the part of the page that backs this up.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Explaining a concept is always confusing..

"A concept is a mental abstraction which allows generalization and the extension of knowledge from some known objects to others unknow. A concept is formed by taking a number of similar entities and deciding what makes them similar in an important way. The differences and the unessential similarities are not important and are abstracted away from the newly created mental entity. Each concept serves a particular purpose and is created to allow higher-level thinking.

While concepts integrate particulars, concepts can also act as particulars. In this way, it is possible to form higher levels of abstraction, combining concepts into more complex concepts, and furthering one's understanding and knowledge by increasing the amount that can be integrated. Higher level concepts can also allow more complicated combinations that are not possible by trying to integrate lower level particulars. The concept wife is not possible without the concept marriage, the concept relationship, and so on down a long tree of complex concepts.

There are two essential tools to complete the concept formation. The first is a definition. This is the method of specifying the essential characteristics of the concept, or what is the basis of the integration. It also specifies the method of differentiation, which distinguishes it from everything not encompassed by the concept.

The second tool is a word.

Words are symbols of concepts. They act as the means of making concepts into mental concretes. They allow the storage of a conceptual integration that can be recalled on demand. Words are references to a concept. They are mental entities which trigger the contents of the concept. By making the concepts into concretes that can be easily maintained and used, we are able to use concepts as particulars, allowing further integration.

Words in themselves are meaningless and mostly arbitrary. They are auditory or visual symbols of concepts, which contains the meaning. A definition applies to a concept, not a word. A word is a name given to a concept. It isn't the concept itself. A word is only meaningful if it has a concept, which in turn, has a definition. Without these, a word is just a noise."

The concepts of chihuahua and lion are similar in that, furry with a tail, four legs and a face. However the concept of a lion is also majestic, powerful, beast without peer, which you cannot use to describe a chihuahua.

Similarly, a black ant can be conceptualized as tiny, insignificant, powerless, and this is due to the power we possess and our perspective. A cosmic being would not see a difference between an ant and a human both under the concept "insect", despite from a human's mind, a human and an ant are as far apart as Heaven and Earth.

The descriptivist theory of names suggest that a name can have the value or content of its description, which is exactly what we see here.

 

[The_Causality]

About Touhou, it's a completely different case as Ichibei, Gods existed before all Concept of their Multiverse, their gives name to everything to make them existing and tangible, the verse especially explain that if we change the name of an object, this object change entirely, same, if you attributes a Non-existent name to an object, this object turn into a mass of "unknown" because this name doesn't definite n object (like you change the name "home" by "hme" it become undefined)