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How far into low 2-C is DBS?

Exactly, Zamasu merged his very energy with the cosmos itself and we know characters can sense the energy of existence. Shin is the creator god of Universe 7, and should have a better understanding of the energies of the universe than most and he's the person being used as a source for Jiren's power.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Exactly, Zamasu merged his very energy with the cosmos itself and we know characters can sense the energy of existence. Shin is the creator god of Universe 7, and should have a better understanding of the energies of the universe than most and he's the person being used as a source for Jiren's power.
The energy of existence? What are you talking about? Since when does existence itself have energy? For that matter, what makes you think this is off the basis of his energy? Did any character even make a comment about his ki?
 
The Kai can sense the universe itself not the energy of it, I think that's what cryo was trying to say. Gowasu stated that zamasu was becoming the universe, he was also shown in the present, so he Would have to be able to affect space time with his ki to do that. How else could he do it?
 
A Stoned Orc said:
"Remember that the Spirit Bomb is a martial arts discipline that allows you to borrow energy from grass and trees, from people and animals, from inanimate objects and the atmosphere... And then to concentrate them and release them. If you can draw so much destructive power from a ball made on this small planet... ...Imagine what you can do with a Spirit Bomb formed on Earth! If you can also learn to tap into the astounding powers of the Sun... Well. Just be careful. Or you may destroy the very planet you're trying to protect!" --King Kai in Chapter 212 of Dragon Ball

It's kind of vague, but everything has ki, more or less. If Zamasu, who has evil godly ki, started to become one with the multiverse, the entire multiverse would start to feel like Zamasu's evil ki.

...That said, *did* Infinite Zamasu truly become 2-C before Shin left? I don't think so.
Kaio is talking about Genki there. The "Spirit Bomb" is the funimation term, the actual term is "Genki Dama." Genki is not necessarily the energy of existence. Also, God ki and normal ki are completely different from genki. Genki, like with the genki dama, is your life energy such that losing all of it kills you. It is also independent of power, all the humans contributing to the genki dama contribute the same amount as Ultimate Gohan did in the Buu arc.


So using genki as an argument like you are doesn't really work then.
 
Isn't Genki just 1/3rd of ki, though? It's the same energy that Goku uses to lock on to targets with IT, according to the newer chapters of Super and Vegeta's training on Planet Yardrat
 
Iisdude1 said:
The Kai can sense the universe itself not the energy of it, I think that's what cryo was trying to say. Gowasu stated that zamasu was becoming the universe, he was also shown in the present, so he Would have to be able to affect space time with his ki to do that. How else could he do it?
Yes, they can sense that he IS existence itself, because they can sense entities like far off planets, etc etc. But how does this prove that this is possible based on a ki signature? Because the "energy of existence", described before is Genki, and we've already established that this is not a matter of genki.

And again, the idea that 109 Jiren is stronger than peak Merged Zamasu is nonsense. The first we see of Jiren surpassing Merged Zamasu is when he uses the power that he uses to take on SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta at once, when Goku says that he had been hit harder than he had ever been before.
 
A Stoned Orc said:
Isn't Genki just 1/3rd of ki, though? It's the same energy that Goku uses to lock on to targets with IT, according to the newer chapters of Super and Vegeta's training on Planet Yardrat
The original manga establishes that ki and Genki are distinctly different, when the Genki Dama is used. I haven't read the Moro arc yet so I don't know if this was retconned in the manga or something.
 
Because the only way he could have fused with the universe is with his ki, there is literally no other way, since ki is life force.
 
Omegas03 said:
About Vegito, do you think he's Low 2-C? That thing was really controversial before.
Depends, If Vegito >= Merged Zamasu and MZ = IZ in AP then yes Vegito should be Low 2-C. But if Infinite Zamasu is stronger than MZ then yes Vegito is correctly rated.
 
I don't think he got stronger or weaker when he became infinite zamasu, since it was basically his soul. He only would become stronger through the merging of universes.
 
Iisdude1 said:
Because the only way he could have fused with the universe is with his ki, there is literally no other way, since ki is life force.
Ki is irrelevant to his ability to merge with the universe. He merged with the universe because he is immortal and his body was destroyed. He cannot die, as he is immortal, so destroying his body simply had that result, erasure apparently ignores this
 
PFM18 said:
Iisdude1 said:
Because the only way he could have fused with the universe is with his ki, there is literally no other way, since ki is life force.
Ki is irrelevant to his ability to merge with the universe. He merged with the universe because he is immortal and his body was destroyed. He cannot die, as he is immortal, so destroying his body simply had that result, erasure apparently ignores this
It's never actualy made clear how and why this was happening, for all we know, Zamasu could have done that through sheer will power or by using ki, nothing is said about how or why it happened, we're just told Zamasu did it.
 
Regardless, zamasus is still 4D, why would they state jiren is the strongest foe but exclude infinite zamasu, there is no basis for this.
 
Iisdude1 said:
Regardless, zamasus is still 4D, why would they state jiren is the strongest foe but exclude infinite zamasu, there is no basis for this.
Because Zamasu is literally not a character in that case, he BECAME the universe itself. And all of these arguments that it was strength based have been complete nonsense. "Oh he used the energy of existence" The only energy you could be referring to is Genki, which is essentially life energy, that is equal among all characters, which is the whole concept for the genki dama." "His ki was so large that he could do this!" Which is completely at odds with the scene. He BECAME the universe because he was immortal, and his body was destroyed. He didnt have a body, but he had immortality granted by the supremely powerful Super Dragon Balls, so he simply could not die. It had absolutely nothing to do with strength/ki. If he was not immortal, Trunks would have killed him and that would have been the end of it, even though his ki size(God Ki) was the same.
 
Dragomer said:
I mean, it's pretty clear Jiren is supposed to be so above everyone previously it's not even funny.
he is. But not only is his 109 self not necessarily stronger than MZ, but that simply does not mean he scales to BEING the multiverse.
 
Vegeta in Episode 122 stated an Heavily Suppressed Jiren is the strongest guy he ever encountered so that includes Zamasu.
 
I mean the state of being doesn't really matter since we're only interested about what it mean for their power, as long as we agree Zamasu < Jiren, i don't see the issue.
 
I mean, he thinks Jiren only at his Full Power is above Fusion Zamasu yet not Infinite Zamasu so Jiren and ToP top dogs are probably just 3-A to him.
 
Yeah, even Goku states once that the attacks he received from Jiren in Episode 123 were the strongest he ever received despite being hit by Infinite Zamasu one time IIRC.

And the series has plenty of statements with Jiren being the strongest, even external media has statements I heard.

Saying Infinite Zamasu can't be felt or that Jiren can't be stronger than the Multiverse, etc is just overcomplicating things imo. Even Beerus or Whis reactions at Zamasu pale in comparison to how they reacted at Heavily Suppressed Jiren in 109.
 
Omegas03 said:
I mean, he thinks Jiren only at his Full Power is above Fusion Zamasu yet not Infinite Zamasu so Jiren and ToP top dogs are probably just 3-A to him.
I literally never said that nor implied it.
 
Dragomer said:
I mean the state of being doesn't really matter since we're only interested about what it mean for their power, as long as we agree Zamasu < Jiren, i don't see the issue.
Obviously Zamasu>>>>>>Jiren. But to say "oh the baseline 2-C is at Astral Zamasu because he became the universe" is nonsensical because you're attributing to power that is simply not a reflection of power. He became the universe because his body was destroyed and hes immortal, not because he is the first character to reach a particular strength threshold as this site falsely claims.
 
PFM18 said:
Iisdude1 said:
Regardless, zamasus is still 4D, why would they state jiren is the strongest foe but exclude infinite zamasu, there is no basis for this.
Because Zamasu is literally not a character in that case, he BECAME the universe itself. And all of these arguments that it was strength based have been complete nonsense.
"Oh he used the energy of existence" The only energy you could be referring to is Genki, which is essentially life energy, that is equal among all characters, which is the whole concept for the genki dama."
100% contradicted in the new Moro stuff. Vegeta's normal, base-form power skyrocketted after training and building his Genki (Spirit Energy in the official translation) with the Yardrats. Goku is stated to have more powerful Genki than Vegeta, one of the reasons why he's always still a step or more behind Goku.
 
Because Zamasu is literally not a character in that case, he BECAME the universe itself. And all of these arguments that it was strength based have been complete nonsense.
"Oh he used the energy of existence" The only energy you could be referring to is Genki, which is essentially life energy, that is equal among all characters, which is the whole concept for the genki dama."

100% contradicted in the new Moro stuff. Vegeta's normal, base-form power skyrocketted after training and building his Genki (Spirit Energy in the official translation) with the Yardrats. Goku is stated to have more powerful Genki than Vegeta, one of the reasons why he's always still a step or more behind Goku.

What? Vegeta absolutely is not training his Genki. Just because the phrasing "spirit energy" is used, doesn't mean that its referring to genki. Translating the Genki Dama directly, it is "Energy Sphere" and bears no actual resemblance to "Spirit energy" unless you insist upon using funimation as evidence.
 
I literally never said that nor implied it.

Yes you did. You're arguing that infinite Zamasu is stronger than Jiren, therefore you think he's 3-A. Unless you have other reasons for low 2-C but I highly doubt you do.
 
PFM18 said:
Dragomer said:
I mean the state of being doesn't really matter since we're only interested about what it mean for their power, as long as we agree Zamasu < Jiren, i don't see the issue.
Obviously Zamasu>>>>>>Jiren. But to say "oh the baseline 2-C is at Astral Zamasu because he became the universe" is nonsensical because you're attributing to power that is simply not a reflection of power. He became the universe because his body was destroyed and hes immortal, not because he is the first character to reach a particular strength threshold as this site falsely claims.
On this site, being the universe or being that kind of being give you that kind of power, that's how the tiering works, just like existing before time give you a specific tier here IIRC, not that i agree or disagree but it's how the tiering work here.

He reached that treshold because he became the universe, he didn't become the universe because he reached that treshold.
 
I literally never said that nor implied it.

Yes you did. You're arguing that infinite Zamasu is stronger than Jiren, therefore you think he's 3-A. Unless you have other reasons for low 2-C but I highly doubt you do.

How nice of you to explain what I'm arguing! Thanks so much!

But no, I did not argue either of those things.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Then what in the world are you saying?
That infinite zamasu should not just be treated as a character of a particular strength because he became existence itself and it had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with his power and everything to do with his immortality.

And, AS AN ASIDE, Merged Zamasu was not surpassed in 109, he was surpassed by the power Jiren used to fight SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 at the same time, because Goku said that it was the hardest he had ever been hit. Maybe you were conflating the two points or something, because I have no idea whatsoever how you managed to come to that conclusion.
 
Iisdude1 said:
He is still an enemy, Jiren was stated to be the strongest foe, meaning he is stronger than any form of merged zamasu, You can't get more straightforward than that. Why would they point out that Jirens energy was greater than any enemy they've faced and not include zamasu?
Obviously Jiren>Zamasu. But then, the claim is that him surpassing zamasu represents a new power threshhold that people call 2-C or whatever. But Zamasu....only "became" the multiverse because hes immortal and his body was destroyed. So....Jiren is stronger than immortality? That makes no ******* sense. Why? Because this "feat" HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER.

I frankly don't see how this is so hard to understand, or why it is that every attempt to defend this nonsense has completely misrepresented the point they are trying to refute.
 
Being the universe make you that tier on this site, simple as that, how you became the universe change jackshit.
 
PFM18 said:
Iisdude1 said:
He is still an enemy, Jiren was stated to be the strongest foe, meaning he is stronger than any form of merged zamasu, You can't get more straightforward than that. Why would they point out that Jirens energy was greater than any enemy they've faced and not include zamasu?
Obviously Jiren>Zamasu. But then, the claim is that him surpassing zamasu represents a new power threshhold that people call 2-C or whatever. But Zamasu....only "became" the multiverse because hes immortal and his body was destroyed. So....Jiren is stronger than immortality? That makes no ******* sense. Why? Because this "feat" HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER.
I frankly don't see how this is so hard to understand, or why it is that every attempt to defend this nonsense has completely misrepresented the point they are trying to refute.
Yes, Zamasu became the universe because he's immortal

But imagine a human became the size of the universe

Wouldn't that human be able to destroy the universe via sheer size?

That's the same argument with Zamasu
 
Dragomer said:
Being the universe make you that tier on this site, simple as that, how you became the universe change jackshit.
You're still using it as a power threshold, that Jiren, or anyone else above Infinite Zamasu, has a higher ki than him and so is also multiversal or whatever, but Zamasu's ki is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It has nothing to do with being able to accomplish this feat, so using it as a metric for other characters is nonsensical.
 
Nobody said that makes them Multiversal. . it doesn't matter if they themselves can't become 4d they still have that power for being obviously stronger. zamasu fused with u7 space time, jiren is stronger Than him. They don't have to be able fuse with the universe to be 4d they just have to have the power to do it.
 
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