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How far into low 2-C is DBS?

Mickey1940 said:
@CryoTheMayo
There's no way SSJG is only twice as strong as SSJ3

Before I start arguing, though, is there a thread where people agreed to this?
Click to expand...
I am hyper-lowballing the multipliers of the forms, because absolutely nobody would disagree that the gap between forms is at least 2x.

If you mean a thread that establishes multipliers this thread is where AKM states what the wiki treats them as.
 
Scenario 2 has a flaw in its logic, it claims that every GoD is 50% 2-C, and anyone 2x that should be 2-C. Considering SSBE Vegeta surpassed GoD Toppo, and both UIS Goku and Base Jiren are far stronger than that, it would come to:

Goku = Low 2-C (Blue), 2-C (UIS), 2-C (UI)

Jiren = Low 2-C (Suppressed), 2-C (Full Power), 2-C (LB)

Broly = Low 2-C (Wrath), 2-C (Super Saiyan), 2-C (FPSS)

Gogeta = Low 2-C (Base), 2-C (Super Saiyan), 2-C (SSB)

Frieza = Low 2-C, possibly higher (endured SS Broly for over an hour, would be highest Low 2-C AP-wise)

This would have the flaw of also scaling Beerus to 2-C, due to being comparable with FPSS Broly but that could be argued as Whis and Vados' statements just generally referring to GoDs, rather than Beerus himself.

If this is disagreeable, further adjustment could be made by simply claiming Toppo shouldn't be anywhere near the level of Beerus or Champa (veteran GoDs) and only GoDs scaling dozens, or even hundreds, of times above him would be viable for possibly 2-C scaling.
 
The issue is downscaling to Champa, who is said to be weaker than Beerus. To add further, Whis and Vados generally state that GoDs fighting can cause 2-C destruction rather than specifically singling out Champa and Beerus.

So whether or not Toppo qualifies for that 50% 2-C statement is up for serious debate, for anyone that supports Scenario 2.
 
Maybe 2-C is a mistake ovo.

If we go that by merely being a GoD is the requirement; then a buttload of characters namely Vegito Blue, Pre UIS Goku etc would scale if we go by Sidra being piss weak for a GoD.

Anyways, there's a lot of issues with that and I would go for MUI, UBW and Gogeta (and the ones beyond that) being 2-C. Nobody else
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Mickey1940 said:
@CryoTheMayo
There's no way SSJG is only twice as strong as SSJ3

Before I start arguing, though, is there a thread where people agreed to this?
Click to expand...
I am hyper-lowballing the multipliers of the forms, because absolutely nobody would disagree that the gap between forms is at least 2x.
If you mean a thread that establishes multipliers this thread is where AKM states what the wiki treats them as.
Click to expand...
Ah i see. Thanks!
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Scenario 2 has a flaw in its logic, it claims that every GoD is 50% 2-C, and anyone 2x that should be 2-C. Considering SSBE Vegeta surpassed GoD Toppo, and both UIS Goku and Base Jiren are far stronger than that, it would come to:
Goku = Low 2-C (Blue), 2-C (UIS), 2-C (UI)

Jiren = Low 2-C (Suppressed), 2-C (Full Power), 2-C (LB)

Broly = Low 2-C (Wrath), 2-C (Super Saiyan), 2-C (FPSS)

Gogeta = Low 2-C (Base), 2-C (Super Saiyan), 2-C (SSB)

Frieza = Low 2-C, possibly higher (endured SS Broly for over an hour, would be highest Low 2-C AP-wise)

This would have the flaw of also scaling Beerus to 2-C, due to being comparable with FPSS Broly but that could be argued as Whis and Vados' statements just generally referring to GoDs, rather than Beerus himself.

If this is disagreeable, further adjustment could be made by simply claiming Toppo shouldn't be anywhere near the level of Beerus or Champa (veteran GoDs) and only GoDs scaling dozens, or even hundreds, of times above him would be viable for possibly 2-C scaling.
Click to expand...
When Whis and Vados made the claim that "If two GoDs fought each other, it would lead to the destruction of the universe they are in plus an adjacent universe", they didn't know that Toppo was a GoD

Therefore, I don't think Toppo should scale, but the other GoDs POSSIBLY could all scale to give or take 50% 2C
 
Yeah I think Toppo represents some of the last Low 2-C Non GoD level characters. The Low 2-C scaling chain should look something like this:

50% Low 2-C = Hakaishins > SSJBKK Goku Post UI2 (at least) >= SSJBE Vegeta (this is due to Jiren not taking him as serious as SSJBKK Goku) > Hakaishin Toppo > LSSJ2 Kefla >= UI2 Goku >= SSJB Goku Post UI2 > LSSJ Kefla > U7 Spirit Bomb which is roughly around the same level as Infinite Zamasu (based on Shin's comment of Jiren being the strongest they ever met by simply blinking the Spirit Bomb) = Baseline Low 2-C
 
Well, if we go based on that, we have to consider that there is still a massive gap between Toppo (a new GoD) and Beerus (a GoD with 65 million+ years of experience and training) of at least several hundred times.

The weakest GoD would still be 50% of 2-C based on their statement (let's say Sidra for now, since most consider him as such). So there is a scaling chain presented.

If we take UIS at least 40x and consider that SS Broly is 50x, as well as Base Jiren being stronger than UIS, then we would come to the conclusion that Belmod is actually far weaker than Beerus unless UIS and Base Jiren are just far, far, stronger than at least 40x Blue.

Beerus > Champa >> Belmod >> Sidra

Considering the gap between UIS and UI (or Base and LB) should be at least 2x, and Belmod is being treated as around FP Jiren, then we come to the conclusion that Beerus (and Broly) should be 2-C (scaling to Gogeta), Goku and Jiren are 2-C only in LB and UI and Gogeta is 2-C in any form above Super Saiyan.

Of course, there is contention on how Beerus and Belmod compare on a relative scale, so you could make the argument that it's:

Beerus = Belmod > Champa >> Sidra

Which could be argued as possibly 2-C for Beerus, Belmod and FPSS Broly as well as UIS Goku and Base Jiren. The 2-Cs would be UI Goku, LB Jiren and SSB Gogeta via scaling far above possible 2-Cs.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Well, if we go based on that, we have to consider that there is still a massive gap between Toppo (a new GoD) and Beerus (a GoD with 65 million+ years of experience and training) of at least several hundred times.
The weakest GoD would still be 50% of 2-C based on their statement (let's say Sidra for now, since most consider him as such). So there is a scaling chain presented.

If we take UIS at least 40x and consider that SS Broly is 50x, as well as Base Jiren being stronger than UIS, then we would come to the conclusion that Belmod is actually far weaker than Beerus unless UIS and Base Jiren are just far, far, stronger than at least 40x Blue.

Beerus > Champa >> Belmod >> Sidra

Considering the gap between UIS and UI (or Base and LB) should be at least 2x, and Belmod is being treated as around FP Jiren, then we come to the conclusion that Beerus (and Broly) should be 2-C (scaling to Gogeta), Goku and Jiren are 2-C only in LB and UI and Gogeta is 2-C in any form above Super Saiyan.

Of course, there is contention on how Beerus and Belmod compare on a relative scale, so you could make the argument that it's:

Beerus = Belmod > Champa >> Sidra

Which could be argued as possibly 2-C for Beerus, Belmod and FPSS Broly as well as UIS Goku and Base Jiren. The 2-Cs would be UI Goku, LB Jiren and SSB Gogeta via scaling far above possible 2-Cs.
Click to expand...
And that's fine because I really don't think Toppo scales directly to the Hakaishin. I think he has some ways to go before being able scale to the likes of Sidra or Champa. My only problem is that the suggestion of Sidra and Champa being definitively weaker than Beerus where for the most part when they fight they are comparably equal and Sidra wasn't using his FP when he lent his hakai to his assassin. So there's room for them to all being around the same ballpark, with Beerus maybe having the edge due to his skill (really only shown in the manga). However, there could still be a scaling chain within the tier, I just don't a mortal has surpassed a certain amount of Hakaishin in the show, they either surpassed all of them or none.

My overall Scaling Chain would look like this:

2-C = []

Low 2-C = {}

[SSJB Gogeta > MUI Goku >= LB Jiren] > LSSJ Broly >= {Base Jiren > UI3 Goku >= Hakaishins (Beerus >= Belmod >= Liquir = Arak = Iwen >= the other gods who did not fight >= Sidra >= Champa = 50% 2-C) > SSJBKK Goku Post UI2 (at least) >= SSJBE Vegeta (this is due to Jiren not taking him as serious as SSJBKK Goku) > Hakaishin Toppo > LSSJ2 Kefla >= UI2 Goku >= SSJB Goku Post UI2 > LSSJ Kefla > U7 Spirit Bomb which is roughly around the same level as Infinite Zamasu (based on Shin's comment of Jiren being the strongest they ever met by simply blinking the Spirit Bomb) = Baseline Low 2-C}

Broly should be a Possibly 2-C due to tanking Blue Gogeta's attacks and stated to being stronger than Beerus.
 
I kept a bit of the disparity in power in which was proposed before but I think it's a lot closer than everyone thinks and honestly that's the safest route to go when calculating 2-Cs and Low 2-Cs in DB. We can't assume someone is vastly stronger without the proper evidence, and justification. Especially with the Hakaishin as they all nearly killed each other in the manga (FP Beerus was going to stalemate Quietala) and the few fights in the Anime they were comparable.
 
To put it bluntly, I don't even think the Gods of Destruction should have profiles based on the anime. The only anime GoDs that should have profiles are Beerus, Champa, Liquir, Arack and Iwen. These are the only GoDs that have ever fought in the anime canon.

Champa himself has been implied to be weaker than Beerus before (although I understand why people dismiss that statement) and does have enough anti-feats to bring him into question (Frieza, Hit, Dyspo and Goku). It's fair to claim that Champa, who is 50% 2-C like all GoDs, is weaker than Beerus based on these statements/examples.

Liquir, Arack and Iwen are all 50% 2-C due to being GoDs, but in terms of scaling we can only say they 'should be above Toppo, a new God of Destruction' rather than comparable to other GoDs like Beerus. We can claim those three are generally comparable due to their mock spar (although they fought purely to entertain Zeno).

FPSS Broly is 'possibly stronger' than Beerus, who is said/implied to be stronger than Champa so having FPSS Broly be 'possibly 2-C' isn't far-fetched, and this would also make Gogeta Blue outright 2-C rather than just possibly, or at least make it so he is 'likely' 2-C.

Gogeta >> Broly > Beerus > Champa ~ Liquir ~ Arack ~ Iwen >> Toppo

We then have to consider Belmod's scaling, considering we can only conclusively state that base Jiren > Belmod. Belmod seemingly knew how strong Jiren was, so I think it isn't crazy to consider FP Jiren > Belmod but not suppressed Jiren.

Considering the claim of Belmod's superiority over Beerus is arguably in contension (by me, and Beerus in the story) I would argue Belmod should be with the other GoDs being scaled to Champa (who is argued to be weaker than Beerus).

Gogeta >> Broly > Beerus ~ FP Jiren > Belmod >> Toppo

So FP Jiren and UIS3 Goku (who scales below FP Jiren) would be the highest Low 2-Cs on the website, along with Beerus.

LB Jiren and UI Goku would be 2-C, due to the massive powergap between them and their Base and UIS states along with Gogeta.

2-C = SSB Gogeta, LB Jiren, UI Goku

Low 2-C, possibly 2-C = FPSS Broly

Low 2-C (highest) = Beerus, UIS3 Goku, FP Jiren

Low 2-C (50%) = Belmod, Champa, Liquir, Iwen, Arack

This is all assuming that GoD Toppo is so much weaker than the veteran GoDs that he isn't 50% 2-C (despite Whis and Vados claiming any GoDs clashing would result in 2-C destruction). If we claimed he was, it would become:

2-C = SS Gogeta, SS Broly, Base Jiren, UIS Goku

Possibly 2-C = Beerus, Frieza

50% Low 2-C = GoD Toppo, SSBE Vegeta, KKX20 Goku Blue, typical GoDs

Regardless of the case, these characters would all be considered so close to 2-C, that they would be capable of curbstomping any Low 2-C (AP-wise) unless they have sufficient evidence for being so close to the power of 2-C.
 
I mean it doesnt even necessarily make sense, because you cant really compare actual characters to an entity that literally is the multiverse. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Even if we do make the comparison by assuming Corrupted MZ full-power=Astral Zamasu, then Jiren is only stronger by an arbitrary amount and it is impossible to quantify.
 
Infinite Zamasu has energy. The characters can sense energy. The person that said Jiren was the strongest they ever felt, was Shin. Shin is a God, present for Infinite Zamasu, that could compare and contrast Jiren's power to Infinite Zamasu.

Goku later pushed Jiren harder than ever before, meaning Jiren (who already surpassed Infinite Zamasu) was pushed into trying much harder.

Unless you are trying to imply that Infinite Zamasu has no Ki signature, we have every reason to compare and contrast Jiren to him. And it's the entire basis for Low 2-C Dragon Ball.
 
Nobody is going to address this? This could be an upgrade for DBS god tiers.

I'm in for likely 2-C SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku and UBW Jiren, with possibly 2-C Broly and FP Jiren.

I got some doubts for the rest though. Especially the SS Gogeta and Broly > Beerus part.
 
Omegas03 said:
Nobody is going to address this? This could be an upgrade for DBS god tiers.
I'm in for likely 2-C SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku and UBW Jiren, with possibly 2-C Broly and FP Jiren.

I got some doubts for the rest though. Especially the SS Gogeta and Broly > Beerus part.
Click to expand...
Cryo said that SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Ikari Broly are only 2C if Toppo is 1/2 Low 2C

I doubt Toppo is as strong as a veteran GoD, though, but I don't have any evidence to back up my claim
 
Goku was going deeper onto the state of the GoDs with UI sign and Jiren is only above Belmod whilst using his Full Power. Not to mention Broly is barely above Beerus, despite having a much larger scaling chain over GoD Toppo.

So it's safe to say Toppo doesn't compare to the strongest GoDs. To the weakest ones maybe but not Belmod, Beerus or Quitela.
 
The DBS scaling has become so bogus at this point. There are problems with Vegito's scaling, TOP scaling, and others that I have to address in the future.
 
Mickey1940 said:
Omegas03 said:
Nobody is going to address this? This could be an upgrade for DBS god tiers.
I'm in for likely 2-C SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku and UBW Jiren, with possibly 2-C Broly and FP Jiren.

I got some doubts for the rest though. Especially the SS Gogeta and Broly > Beerus part.
Click to expand...
Cryo said that SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Ikari Broly are only 2C if Toppo is 1/2 Low 2C
I doubt Toppo is as strong as a veteran GoD, though, but I don't have any evidence to back up my claim
Click to expand...
Champa is one of the weaker GoDs correct? Due to being out of shape? This doesn't stop his power from contributing to half of one that would destroy 2 Universes. All they said was that if 2 GoDs fought then 2 Universes would be destroyed. That's it. No one ever said it had to be Beerus or a stronger GoD specifically. Thats on you to prove. Especially when the dialogue is blatantly generalizing it to any GoDs getting into a fight.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Infinite Zamasu has energy. The characters can sense energy. The person that said Jiren was the strongest they ever felt, was Shin. Shin is a God, present for Infinite Zamasu, that could compare and contrast Jiren's power to Infinite Zamasu.

Goku later pushed Jiren harder than ever before, meaning Jiren (who already surpassed Infinite Zamasu) was pushed into trying much harder.

Unless you are trying to imply that Infinite Zamasu has no Ki signature, we have every reason to compare and contrast Jiren to him. And it's the entire basis for Low 2-C Dragon Ball.
Click to expand...
Yes. He has energy, hes still fundamentally different in any conventional sense to any other fighter. You simply cannot really compare him to anyone.

So do you also believe heavily suppressed Jiren>GoDs then right? Otherwise you're cherrypicking the implications you like. Do you also believe Jiren powered up and then instantaneously powered down to fight Vegeta in 122?

If that's the basis for low-2C Dragon Ball, then it's a flimsy basis at best.
 
Well I only think it's liable because of the Zamasu feat. Also Zamasus energy can still be sensed so it's not really important if his energy is fundamentally different, since Zamasu is a foe and jiren was said to be the strongest foe.
 
Iisdude1 said:
Well I only think it's liable because of the Zamasu feat. Also Zamasus energy can still be sensed so it's not really important if his energy is fundamentally different, since Zamasu is a foe and jiren was said to be the strongest foe.
Click to expand...
You simply cannot really fight someone who literally IS the multiverse, its strange to say that you're "stronger" than the multiverse itself, its sort of different from being able to destroy it. And harming Zamasu would mean harming the multiverse. Harming the multiverse means harming Zamasu. Saying Jiren>Zamasu implies this is also true of Jiren, if we are going to have anyone "scale to" Astral Zamasu, there are absurd implications. Its simply an apples to oranges comparison.
 
Harming Zamasu you would need npi which doesn't really matter if you can bust entire timelines. Zamasu has only fused with universe 7 at the time but would have started encompassing the multiverse. If jiren is stated to be the strongest foe at the time then we should trust supreme Kais word, since he witnessed Zamasu and his energy.
 
Iisdude1 said:
Harming Zamasu you would need npi which doesn't really matter if you can bust entire timelines. Zamasu has only fused with universe 7 at the time but would have started encompassing the multiverse. If jiren is stated to be the strongest foe at the time then we should trust supreme Kais word, since he witnessed Zamasu and his energy.
Click to expand...
Which means that he's stronger than Merged Zamasu. Astral Zamasu is it's own thing that really isn't even a character to compare to, he literally IS the fabric of matter itself, which isn't reletable to actual normal characters. You'd have to scale stronger characters to becoming matter itself, aka becoming the universe. It just doesn't make sense. And being able to destroy Zamasu was contingent on being able to kill an immortal being, which isn't really a thing aside from Zeno's erasure. There's really no reason to actually believe that Jiren could have also destroyed Merged Zamasu, he was immortal. None of this makes sense.

Frankly, all we really know as far as I'm concerned from this is that Jiren>>>Merged Zamasu
 
Your points are all nonsense. Why would Zamasu being merged with the universe, even remotely impact the fact that he has energy that can be detected?
 
"Remember that the Spirit Bomb is a martial arts discipline that allows you to borrow energy from grass and trees, from people and animals, from inanimate objects and the atmosphere... And then to concentrate them and release them. If you can draw so much destructive power from a ball made on this small planet... ...Imagine what you can do with a Spirit Bomb formed on Earth! If you can also learn to tap into the astounding powers of the Sun... Well. Just be careful. Or you may destroy the very planet you're trying to protect!" --King Kai in Chapter 212 of Dragon Ball

It's kind of vague, but everything has ki, more or less. If Zamasu, who has evil godly ki, started to become one with the multiverse, the entire multiverse would start to feel like Zamasu's evil ki.

...That said, *did* Infinite Zamasu truly become 2-C before Shin left? I don't think so.
 
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