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Hollow Knight: Possible Immortality Type 4 or Resurrection

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Actually, to add to the thread I also think the ability to live without his soul should be added since the shadow of the knight causes his geo soul gague to crack implying that's possibly his soul.
 
Just the ressurection or the ressurection and this "Actually, to add to the thread I also think the ability to live without his soul should be added since the shadow of the knight causes his geo soul gague to crack implying that's possibly his soul."?
 
Just resurrection. I do not understand your explanation.
 
I dunno. I'm pretty sure the shade is just a really neat in game mechanic. As the "shade" is just the inner void of a vessel. It is actually shown that when you die. Your shell splits apart and then you respawn. No other vessel has this power. Their shell is broken in the abyss. And their shades are just kinda haning out down there. (Plus isn't it kinda weird that the knight can still opperate even when the void that gives it life is extracted?)
 
What. this makes no sense. In the dream no more ending. The shades literally turn into little black balls. They don't reunite with their shells. They just kinda sink into the abyss. The manual is explaining the in game mechanic of regaining your lost items. :/
 
They don't reunite with their shells because you openly need to fight them to get your stuff back. It's not a game mechanic, calling it a game mechanic because you simply disagree with it doesn't suddenly make it that. It's openly stated what shades are and their outright listed as enemies in the game and why they appear. Unless you want to call enemies game mechanics now. It's even further confirmed when you agree to save your geo this persons bank.
Screen Shot 2019-03-27 at 2.37.10 PM
 
ok. How many other vessels do you see doing this? Hm? Why aren't they all alive in the abyss? Why don't THEY respawn on benches whenever THEY die?
 
Cause most other vessels never make it back to their shades before their death. The Knight does. We actually never see if they respawn on a bench or not, I legit don't even know why you're trying to ask this. I think this is simple.

>Shades are outright called an echo of the knight

>Their canon enemies

>Outright states a shade is an enemy you face upon death.

>Bank outright says it'll save geo for you just incase of death

Resurrection is clearly canon.
 
Remember, the other vessels were failed versions. You even fight two corrupted ones.
 
One of the corrupted ones you fight you later one have their shade help you in the radiance fight.

Also do you agree with the proposal or no?
 
The Shade

Shades spawn in the death place of the player on Hollow Knight's default mode, and the Shade holds all of the geo that the player had before their previous death. The player is also crippled slightly by having their main soul vessel partly shattered, only being able to hold about a third of its maximum capacity until they defeat the Shade. This document aims to outline how none of this makes any sense and that Hollow Knight's default mode is potentially not canon as a result.


The Respawn System
The way the Shade works has mostly already been explained above. Upon death, you respawn and you must return to your previous death place to defeat your Shade and get your geo and maximum soul capacity back. Most save points in the game are marked by benches. Benches are interactable objects that the player rests on to save, and as secondary features they also allow the player to change what charms they wear and update their map, if they have purchased an area's map and the quill.


While it may be believed that benches could have something greater to do with how the player can respawn, this conclusion severely lacks evidence. Benches are clearly just save points, which most games have, and nothing more than that.


Other Vessels
This point has been used to both defend and argue against the respawn system. The main idea behind this point is that we never get to see any other vessels interact with benches, as they are all dead and their actions when they were alive would be impossible to determine. However, much like stated above, nothing in the game hints to benches having some kind of special power and are really just there as a way for Team Cherry to nicely implement save points into their universe as gameplay elements are much more important than lore for the enjoyability of the player.


However, one vessel that can be examined (mainly in the favour of this doc) is Broken Vessel, the boss of the Ancient Basin. Broken Vessel is your sibling, but they appear to have been long dead once the player finds them. Lightseeds that inhabit the Basin temporarily take control of Broken Vessel's corpse to fight the player. So, why is Broken Vessel important?


As stated, Broken Vessel is a vessel like the player except they've perished. Their corpse lying in the Ancient Basin for however long shows that it is not a usual feature for vessels to be able to just reform into new specimens. There is no shade near Broken Vessel's corpse either, again putting the player apart from other vessels. Broken Vessel isn't the only example of a dead vessel that never just came back to life, other vessel corpses can be seen around Hallownest such as the one killed by Hornet in Greenpath and the many hanging from the ceiling of Nosk's den.


The Shade vs Siblings
Siblings are enemies found only in the Abyss, and bare multiple resemblances to the player's Shade. Many people assume that these Siblings are the shades of other fallen vessels, and it's not wrong to believe so.


However, there are many differences between the Shade and the Siblings that sets the Shade apart from them. Your Shade somehow carries its own nail, has a more 'complete' and corporeal body while Siblings are much more spectral and ghostlike in comparison.


The most interesting difference can be discovered through the Hunter's Journal, though.


"Echo of a previous life. Defeat it to retake its power and become whole."


"Fragment of a lingering will."


While not much may been seen between the two descriptions on the surface, the Shade is described as an "Echo of a previous life" while the Siblings are referred to as "fragments". The Shade appears to have all of the memories and abilities of the player's previous incarnation, where the Siblings seem incomplete and broken. The bodies of the Siblings seeming to be more fractured and ghostlike than the Shade's also hints that the deaths of the other vessels resulted in these Siblings to be released from their shells where they then returned to the abyss (or were formed in the abyss in the first place, as many of the vessels dumped into the abyss died there) instead of the more permanent Shades that spawn from the player.


Logical Inconsistencies
While the least lore based part of this doc, this also holds the most relevant evidence as to why the respawn system does not work with the rest of Hollow Knight's lore.


Besides how your vessel happens to be the only one with this ability to respawn, there are many other oddities about the respawn system that just seem too nonsensical for it to been viewed as legitimate lore. The most important of these to point out are:


  • Your shell reforming after death. When you die, you quite clearly see your shell shatter into pieces as your Shade escapes. However, you just wake up with your shell still intact. There is no logical explanation as to how your shell just reforms despite you witnessing it being destroyed.


  • Dropping multiple shades upon death. Even if a Shade is present in the world, dying still spawns a new one. This causes any geo the old Shade had to be lost forever. But how does the old Shade disappear? How many times would the Knight be able to break and lose void like this? The answer to the latter is most likely an infinite amount of times, which is why this makes no sense as it would imply that the Knight had an infinite quantity of void inside of them.


  • The Knight's seemingly infinite void vs other Vessels. Vessels like Broken Vessel clearly had all of the void leak out of them upon death, meaning nothing but their empty shell remained. But the Knight can just wake back up from the nearest bench with their shell and void core still intact, since as explained above the Knight can still spawn Shades upon death even if they had not retrieved a currently existing one yet.


Steel Soul Mode
Steel Soul Mode is not too hard to understand, and hopefully not too hard to understand how it falls into this too.


Steel Soul is pretty much Hollow Knight's hardcore mode. Dying in this mode means permanent death, the Knight will not respawn at a bench and they will need to restart the game on a new Steel Soul save file after dying.


Due to death being permanent, Steel Soul has a few changes to Confessor Jiji's service. Jiji wouldn't be able to summon your Shade if you were dead forever, so she is replaced by another NPC, Jinn. Jinn accepts Rancid Eggs for a random amount of geo. To prevent easy geo farming, Tuk, who would usually sell the player Rancid Eggs, is dead or at least infected to the point of immobility in Steel Soul and only a single Rancid Egg can be salvaged from her body.


So, what would any of this mean? The respawn system not being canon gives way for these changes in Steel Soul mode, because in Steel Soul the Knight seems to be treated like any other vessel in the fact that once they're dead, they're dead. As it would invalidate events exclusive to regular mode, Steel Soul mode exclusive events would be considered canon lore instead. This means that Jinn's occupation of Jiji's cave and Tuk's death have a much higher chance to be valid points of lore than Jiji being present in her cave and Tuk still being alive when the player finds her.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GB3-NQHj4pjFyHdiewkpVzKbzMGKu83iI293OZqhQlA/mobilebasic (Here's the doc this was taken from.)
 
I can't really go through all that rn, but some gripes:

  • What causes steel soul to take precedence?
  • Considering that the PC knight assumes the form ot the Void itself when tearing apart Absolute Radiance (Void given Focus), why is them having huge quantities of the void to draw upon inconsistent?
  • Can you provide some sort of implication that the PC isn't able to ressurect? Gameplay stuff is perfectly usable if not contradictory.
  • How does this account for the Void Heart having an impact on shade behaviour, demonstrating that a very plot important item acknowledges the mechanic?
 
Wow this entire paragraph was unnecessary, and a lot of gish gallop, Kopple, we've played Hollow Knight, we know where the saves are and how respawning works, you don't need to go into that, your first arugment regardless is argument from belief you don't believe it's canon and you don't give an explanation as to why it's not. You're also strawmanning me, I never said the benches have some mystical power to bring The Knight back to life, I just said due to the existence of The Shade as a canon enemy that even appears in one of the ending and it's outright described as an enemy that appears after The Knight dies that respawning is canon. Also Hollow Knight, the final boss of the game, has his shade appear during the radiance fight after you slay him in battle. I don't get your entire shade vs siblings portion as it doesn't debunk my core point of resurrection being canon as The Shade is recognized as a canon enemy. You can see that your shell is clearly damaged, I don't know why you ignored that. The entire reason for fighting the Shade is to restore your cracked shell. The Knight creating a new Shade after previous death doesn't mean much I don't even see how this is an inconsistency, the knight literally becomes one with the void, I don't even know where you got this from. Your Steel soul mode is quite literally, "Oh well I disagree with resurrection being canon and steel soul mode doesn't have resurrection so it makes more sense for it to be canon for my benefit". No. Steel soul mode is quite literally a new game+ on the hardest difficulty. It's not meant to be a canon element.

Also the stuff Woki said, Void heart outright affects your shade making it not attack you.
 
That's pacifying the void. What does that have to do with immortality? And, like I said: why havent other vessels done this? I hope you know the vessel we play as isnt special in comparison to others. If resurrection was canon there would be hundreds of vessels kicking around the abyss.
 
Wokistan said:
I can't really go through all that rn, but some gripes:
Click to expand...
!. Steel soul takes precedence because it was built to be a more canonical version of the game. Supported by the fact that (i think) steel soul jin appears in silksong. And is nowhere to be seen in non steel soul runs

2. Thats unrelated to the void for the most part. Its a result of the godseekers atuning with the void heart

3. I dont have time to look through dialogue fot a answer to this ill get back with you

4. All the void heart does is pacify the void. Hence turning the sibblings passive.

Sorry for a not so detailed response. Ill get a more thought out answer when im free
 
Where is it stated that steel soul is built to be the more canonical version? That sounds like pure headcanon.

That still shows their apart of a main story item, whcih was the point.
 
Ok boys now that I'm at my computer it's time for a well thought out counterargument.


  1. 1. Steel Soul does, in fact. Not take precedence. But nothing in steel soul contradicts anything going on in a normal save file. Save for steel soul gin. Who actually shows up in the next game. Which causes the steel soul band of dudes to take precedence in "being canon" as there is more evidence towards their existence than someone like confessor jiji.
  1. 2 That's a completely different situation. If you had beaten pantheon of halownest you'd probably know. Basically: The godmasters can attune to certain extremely powerful beings. This happened with the hollow knight. Restoring him to his prime form. (Pure Vessel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m_j6Ziz3vQ) This happens with... Basically the entirety of the void. Allowing for "The Shade Lord" (Which is what we see in the pantheon of halownest ending.) To pop out and tear apart the radiance. So... Yea. This has nothing to do with resurrection. It was all the godmaster's doing.
  1. 3 Yes, actually. This was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be to disprove. So.... There are these things called "Sibblings" They are basically the shade of other discared vessels. And as we see: No other vessel has been resurrected. Now you may say; "But it's their shell! Their shell was too damaged to get up and get their shade back!" Well.. Our shell breaks apart entirely. But we seem to get back up just fine...? Why aren't the other vessels doing this if vessels can ressurect.


  1. 4 The impact of the shade heart does nothing other than pacifying shades. It has nothing to do with resurrection. After you get the void heart on a steel soul run you can't simply start reviving after that point (As nice as it would be!)
 
You're misssing the point completely of the "pacifying shades" it was to point out that they're canon enemies. Steel soul being canon is pure headcanon, it quite literally falls under "I don't want this mode to be canon so I'll just claim this mode is canon".
 
If you implied it that's headcanon, thus proving my point.

Because it's been a huge part of your argument against resurrection...?
 
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