High-Godly Regeneration Reassessment

[Ss3micah]

Continued from Here

Alright so Short Rundown....
I did a Q&A months ago, Inquiring about how High Godly Regeneration (HGR) works. According to the HGR section of the Regeneration page, HGR is the ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3.

The issue I'm having here is with how exactly HGR is supposed to be Balanced here. I have seen MANY debates where characters that have HGR for Regenerating from ONE fundamental aspect can now for some reason or another Regen from every from erasure of all possible Fundamental Aspects. What I of course mean by this is that if a Character has Feats of being able to Regenerate from Conceptual Erasure BUT lack feats of being able to Regenerate from History, Information and/or Plot Erasure (and vice versa); people argue/assume they can regen from those kind or erasure because that's how HGR works.

There seems to also be a RIFT in the opinion as to how HGR should work. As seen in the Q&A. Some think that regen from ONE fundamental aspect means you can Regen from All Fundamental Aspects and others think that FEATS are necessary to determine what Fundamental Aspects a character can Regen from.

This is less a CTR to reword/re-evaluate HGR and more so a thread just to set the Record Straight and put it out there for current and future members the Balancing Mechanics of hoe HGR Works

Should characters only be able to regen from fundamental aspects they have feats of Regenerating from or can a character Regen from all kinds of Fundamental Aspects Erasure by default once they can Regen from one.

This decision would also affect HGR Negation as well as if it is decided that characters can regen only the fundamental aspects, they have shown to be capable of regenerating from, then Likewise HGR Negation would only negate the corresponding Fundamental Aspect it has feats of negating. I.E: A character who has Conceptual HGR Neg can negate a character who has Conceptual HGR but not History, Information or Plot HGR (and vice versa).

While on the other hand, if it is decided that a character can regen from all fundamental aspects by default (once they can regen from ONE), then HGR Negation likewise would be able to Negate all forms of Fundamental Aspect HGR (once they can negate a single fundamental aspect).

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree, just cause I can regenerate from being removed from history does not mean I can regenerate from having my concept deleted. And just cause I can negate regeneration that lets me come back from information erasure does not mean I can negate regen that deals in concept erasure.

 

[Rabbit2002]

following

 

[Ss3micah]

I agree, just cause I can regenerate from being removed from history does not mean I can regenerate from having my concept deleted. And just cause I can negate regeneration that lets me come back from information erasure does not mean I can negate regen that deals in concept erasure.

Same Thing
And there seems to rift in the fandom as to how it should work.
Which is why i made this CTR to clarify the issue and set the record straight

 

[TheGreatBanana]

I share the same opinion as ActuallySpaceMan. Regenerating from one fundemental aspect of one's existence doesn't mean you can regenerate from the other ones.

 

[Ss3micah]

Bump

 

[Vietthai96]

I agree

But actually the problem is, as i remember back then was, people arguing about the degree of HGR like people who regen from concept erasure is the highest level of HGR and thus default regen from such level can also regen from any other fundamental type of erasure while history erasure is the weakest and can't regen from info or concept erasure which to me is.......bad reason

 

[LeylinFarlier01]

I agree

But actually the problem is, as i remember back then was, people arguing about the degree of HGR like people who regen from concept erasure is the highest level of HGR and thus default regen from such level can also regen from any other fundamental type of erasure while history erasure is the weakest and can't regen from info or concept erasure which to me is.......bad reason

Yess, I think HGR has types rather than hierarchy, as explained above, that HGR which can regenerate from a certain fundamental aspect cannot regenerate from other different fundamental aspect, because in my opinion they are two different things that cannot be arbitrarily related

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

What do you all think about this?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

is this staff only, or just a staff discussion open to normal members?

 

[Antvasima]

Preferably staff and highly knowledgeable members only.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you all think about this?

Easiest would be to just cut up high godly into different types and list what types a person would qualify for.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That seems like an inventive idea.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Easiest would be to just cut up high godly into different types and list what types a person would qualify for.

This sounds like the best idea so far. Maybe put a note that explained why regenerating from one aspect doesn't mean you can regenerate from other aspects?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, as I said in the Q&A thread, it all depends on feats. Characters regenerate from the stuff they have shown to regenerate from and not from stuff they don't. Similarly, characters negate what they have shown and not what they haven't.

Rewording the page shouldn't be necessary, as it's not like the page says anything contrary. People just be making bad assumptions.

Easiest would be to just cut up high godly into different types and list what types a person would qualify for.

Problem is that we do also allow more fundamental aspects besides the ones listed, in principle.
Also kinda weird to have extra types for just one type.
I think this is something that is better solved by the good old "give relevant explanations to your abilities"-move.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also kinda weird to have extra types for just one type.

While weird, unlike most powers it's also a type can qualify for one aspect and not others. As the OP said, one can be High-Godly for one stat and not for any other. Having different types might make it easier, especially for verses where there's little to no active supporters

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually i think having type for it is better, since we have NEP with Nature type and Aspect type, so High Godly with type is not far-fetched

Or at least if the majority don't want type, we can slap a note which write like: It should be noted that regen from one type of erasure doesn't mean regen from other type without proofs. Something like this

 

[DontTalkDT]

While weird, unlike most powers it's also a type can qualify for one aspect and not others. As the OP said, one can be High-Godly for one stat and not for any other. Having different types might make it easier, especially for verses where there's little to no active supporters

Which still doesn't cover the issue of aspects besides the listed ones.
IMO the cleaner solution is to just add "Please specify after the erasure of which aspect(s) the character is known to regenerate on the page." Or something of that gist.

 

[Phoenks]

Which still doesn't cover the issue of aspects besides the listed ones.
IMO the cleaner solution is to just add "Please specify after the erasure of which aspect(s) the character is known to regenerate on the page." Or something of that gist.

Isn't that the reason that an "Other" option exists in the Nonexistent Physiology Aspect types?

Don't see what's wrong with listing the common ones, and also having an "other" option to define those that have other aspects, which would be specified as you say.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in agreement with DontTalkDT

 

[Elizhaa]

DontTalkDT's points look good to me.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Don't see a problem with any of the suggestions though DT's point make more sense. It can easily be solved by noting it in the profiles and just adding a note in the regeneration page that regenerating from the destruction of one fundamental aspect doesn't mean they can regenerate from others without feats.

R.I.P to those who incon plot manipulation users with HGR. Another king of incon is about to fall from grace

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Unnecessary comment deleted.

 

[Theglassman12]

I agree with DT, plus having a hierarchy seems really redundant when so many verses treat one better than the other and vice versa, so it would just lead to a clusterfuck on bickering which HGR is stronger or not.

 

[Ss3micah]

So I think we all agree here that it should be noted (likely on the Regen Page), that having HGR for regenerating from one or more fundamental aspects does not mean you can Regen from all of them by default. Feats matter and without feats of Regenerating from the erasure of a particular fundamental aspect, you cant regenerate and as for HGR Negation you can't negate another characters HGR if the aspect they Regen from does not match the one you can negate.

It should probably be noted on Characters Profiles, likely at the beginning of their HGR description which Fundamental Aspect they Regenerate from. So something like this:

Kriemhild Gretchen
Regeneration (High-Godly; Conceptual: Even after Ultimate Madoka erased her, she was able to return, making Madoka unable to permanently defeat her).

Basically, practicing this idea of labelling a High Godly Regeneration as either Conceptual (for Concepts), Informational (for Information), Narrative (for Plot), or Existential/Acausal (History)
This name I picked are just placeholders

 

[Antvasima]

Which still doesn't cover the issue of aspects besides the listed ones.
IMO the cleaner solution is to just add "Please specify after the erasure of which aspect(s) the character is known to regenerate on the page." Or something of that gist.

This solution seems perfectly fine to me, and appears to have been accepted by our staff above.

 

[Everything12]

So I think we all agree here that it should be noted (likely on the Regen Page), that having HGR for regenerating from one or more fundamental aspects does not mean you can Regen from all of them by default. Feats matter and without feats of Regenerating from the erasure of a particular fundamental aspect, you cant regenerate and as for HGR Negation you can't negate another characters HGR if the aspect they Regen from does not match the one you can negate.

It should probably be noted on Characters Profiles, likely at the beginning of their HGR description which Fundamental Aspect they Regenerate from. So something like this:

Kriemhild Gretchen
Regeneration (High-Godly; Conceptual: Even after Ultimate Madoka erased her, she was able to return, making Madoka unable to permanently defeat her).

Basically, practicing this idea of labelling a High Godly Regeneration as either Conceptual (for Concepts), Informational (for Information), Narrative (for Plot), or Existential/Acausal (History)
This name I picked are just placeholders

Or we don't have to make types and can just have (High-Godly; history: returned from being erased from all history), (High-Godly; plot, returned from having their Narrative Structure erased), or even verse specific stuff like (High-Godly; Origin, returned from having their Origin destroyed, with a being's Origin being the culmination of a beings existence and all the constitutes it, such as their concept and possibilities)

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense, yes.

 

[Ss3micah]

Or we don't have to make types and can just have (High-Godly; history: returned from being erased from all history), (High-Godly; plot, returned from having their Narrative Structure erased),

That works just as well

or even verse specific stuff like (High-Godly; Origin, returned from having their Origin destroyed, with a being's Origin being the culmination of a beings existence and all the constitutes it, such as their concept and possibilities)

I mean... Ideally, what we want is to do is to explicitly list the Fundamental Aspect the character in question is regenerating from just for generalization's sake.
So essentially something like:
(High-Godly; Concept, returned from having their Origin destroyed, with a being's Origin being the culmination of a beings existence and all the constitutes it, such as their concept and possibilities)

Since Origin in this Context would effectively be way the Character Regenerates from Conceptual Erasure. But your idea works just as well I suppose.

 

[Everything12]

That works just as well

I mean... Ideally, what we want is to do is to explicitly list the Fundamental Aspect the character in question is regenerating from just for generalization's sake.
So essentially something like:
(High-Godly; Concept, returned from having their Origin destroyed, with a being's Origin being the culmination of a beings existence and all the constitutes it, such as their concept and possibilities)

Since Origin in this Context would effectively be way the Character Regenerates from Conceptual Erasure. But your idea works just as well I suppose.

Well it would be a bit more then just a concept, so it's better to not just generalise it as 'High-Godly; concept' as that lacks context can lead to misunderstandings.

 

[Antvasima]

Well it would be a bit more then just a concept, so it's better to not just generalise it as 'High-Godly; concept' as that lacks context can lead to misunderstandings.

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

IMO the cleaner solution is to just add "Please specify after the erasure of which aspect(s) the character is known to regenerate on the page." Or something of that gist.

Sounds straightforward enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation help, Ultima.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.
Looks like a conclusion has already been reached, has it been applied?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Staff seems unanimous with just making description clearer and the misunderstanding about regenerating from other aspect without feat seems to have been clarified by Donttalk.

I agree with donttalkTD and Everything12's format for the ability.

I think a thread to handle updating profiles that lacks description necessary to determine which fundamental aspect they regenerate from should be made. Or updating profiles to a better format

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think a thread to handle updating profiles that lacks description necessary to determine which fundamental aspect they regenerate from should be made. Or updating profiles to a better format

I could see a thread for verses which have no active supporters, but I think many supporters will just update it as the changes are implemented. Kinda helps that not too many profiles have High-Godly.

That said, I'm pretty sure all that's left to do is update the Regeneration page itself with a note for High-Godly. After which, this thread should be good to close?

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing and able to properly apply DontTalk's and Everything12's suggested solution here?

 

[ShakeResounding]

"Note: For High-Godly Regeneration, be sure to specify which aspect(s) the character is shown to regenerate from on the page. Example: High-Godly; Plot. Returned from having their Narrative Structure erased."

Here's a little something I put together using DontTalk's suggestion alongside an example given by Everything12 in one of his posts. I suppose I can add it if this suffices.

Edit: I'm now in classes so I'll be unavailable to make the changes for a good chunk of the day. Somebody else is free to do so in my place

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

I tried to tweak your draft text a bit. Do you all find this acceptable?

Note: For High-Godly Regeneration, be sure to specify which aspect(s) the characters with this ability have been shown to regenerate from within their profile pages. For example: "High-Godly; Plot. Returned from having their Narrative Structure erased."

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Since this is almost over I just wanted to ask
will plot have priority over history in terms of being able to regen narratively meaning you can regen your history