Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[Regidian]

So like the title say it's a CRT an attempt to create the heroic sprit key for all the servant register in throne of heroes.

Like we know Heroic spirit are Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death which lead them to ascend as Heroic spirit in an higher plane of existence (Throne of heroes). The Throne of heroes is a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis too.

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Being like Grand Servant or Arturia/Gilgamesh of Extella serie are still just avatar of Heroic spirit, they just have better vessel compared to the normal one (grand servant vessel for fgo and better cyber frame for extella)

• "While Servants are a degraded form of the Grand Servant ritual, the difference between Grand Servants and Servants is rank of the vessel and authority rather than their comparative ranks as Heroic Spirits." London: The Death World in the City of Demonic Fog - Section 13

We know too that that Heroic spirit classified as the strongest being that exist, as the point that even the 5 magicians (user of true magi) can't summon them because their own intrisec nature are beyond magi and magecraft. (which mean they are even beyond Avalon who is tell to be a true magi by himself)

• "Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."

• "An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself." Fate Complete Material III: World material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Effects on the Level of True Magic, p.049

So for the stat they should be 1 dimmension higher than grand servant/extra servant/moon cell are so 7D (being of a higher plane of existance than Avalon and being above True magic) possibly 9D (being of higher plane than the Moon Cell which contain and control 8 dimmension).

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For the ability, Heroic spirit are not limited in skill and class like the servant they should be composite version of what we know about them (except if a servant is specified tell to be register in the throne of heroes as a different version than the other self). Most of them should have resistance of autority as their are all High divinity being and because the Mythical Mystic code who allow to resist authority of BB is a power coming from them.

• "The vessels, classes, act as their temporary name and method of existing. Acting like a "passport to the present", the vessel prepares them for their role as a familiar in advance, allows them to take on that role to help them take form, and brings them forth into the world. Each class identifies only the core skills of the Heroic Spirit because replication of all their abilities is impossible.

• Counter Guardian is a broad classification of Heroic Spirits made up of heroes who are not worshipped, utilized as a mindless Counter Force. Other Heroic Spirits have a high Divinity and act as existences closer to the planet than humanity.

• By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code.

If people ask, we know that heroic spirit exist in Throne of heroes, their not just information recorded.

• -It seems like her cooking skills became famous among Divine Spirits, and before long, she started holding periodic cooking classes in the Throne of Heroes in response to the demands of the Japanese Heroic Spirits." From the Material of Enma.

Agree: QuasiYuri, Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes


Disagree: TypeOU


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx (if a key is made should be unknow, at least 1-C)

 

[QuasiYuri]

Looks good.

 

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with everything

 

[Mageman460]

How does them being above Grand Servants make them 1 dimension higher? Also, not every Servant is a Heroic Spirit and as such wouldn't get this upgrade. For example Yan Qing and Hessian Lobo. Even not counting servants who wouldn't have a Heroic Spirit key, this is still going to be a lot of work. Regardless, I agree that most servants should have a Heroic Spirit key.

If Heroic Spirits are a dimension above Grand Servants, then Beasts and Types would effectively be a non threat to Alaya wouldn't they? Instead Alaya summons the servants as Grand Servants. If anything Heroic Spirits should be at least equal to Grand Servants. But again can not stress it enough that not every servant has a Heroic Spirit.

 

[Regidian]

How does them being above Grand Servants make them 1 dimension higher? Also, not every Servant is a Heroic Spirit and as such wouldn't get this upgrade. For example Yan Qing and Hessian Lobo. Even not counting servants who wouldn't have a Heroic Spirit key, this is still going to be a lot of work. Regardless, I agree that most servants should have a Heroic Spirit key.

If Heroic Spirits are a dimension above Grand Servants, then Beasts and Types would effectively be a non threat to Alaya wouldn't they? Instead Alaya summons the servants as Grand Servants. If anything Heroic Spirits should be at least equal to Grand Servants. But again can not stress it enough that not every servant has a Heroic Spirit.

it's not just being above grand servant that make them that and yeah only heroic spirit get this key i don't tell all servant will have it,(my first phrase is all servant registeredin throne of heroes will get in , not all servant)


Alaya don't need to summon heroic spirit if grand servant are enough to (and we don't even know if the World can take the existence of a real heroic spirit main body) and as most of real Heroic spirit have become high divinity being because faith, it's tell she don't particulary want to summon them.

Other Heroic Spirits have a high Divinity and act as existences closer to the planet than humanity, so they are able to avoid being drafted by the Counter Force.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's odd that them being 7/9d completely puts them above everything in the entire series, save for Root stuff. This completely puts them above Types, above Lostbelt Kings and other gods, etc, which doesn't seem right from a narrative standpoint especially considering these characters have been noted to be the strongest things.

A possible reason for this contradiction is exactly why I don't like this key. A full Heroic Spirit literally can not exist in the series. If we go with the idea that they're above the Mooncell and World, it explains why they're never summoned and instead Grands, and why BB just puts the data into containers rather than yoinking Heroic Spirits whole, etc, but that's the issue, that means they can never be summoned, at all, they only exist in the throne itself and never are able to do combat themselves, or be anywhere but there. This would mean we're indexing a key for an impossibility in the verse.

The only time, in the 17 years this series has gone on, where this rule is possibly broken, that someone can even argue that a Heroic Spirit existing outside of the throne has happened or is possible, is with Jeanne going to the reverse side, and notably struggling to reach the thing she'd be infinitely above if that was the case, which makes no sense given her apparent power if she was a Heroic Spirit at the time.

Aside from this gripe, and the issue of them being above everything else in the series just through statements about certain beings' powers, and the narrative of the series, not entirely making sense, and the fact that this would just be composting every single version of a given servant which would bloat the file to all hell, the stuff in the op logically makes sense.

 

[Nepuko]

adjusts glasses ...so you guys are trying to make a composite version for every Servant?

(and we don't even know if the World can take the existence of a real heroic spirit main body) and as most of real Heroic spirit have become high divinity being because faith, it's tell she don't particulary want to summon them.

As far as I know, the World is literally the only thing with the Authority to summon the real body of a Heroic Spirit.

This is mentioned in the World Material.

 

[Regidian]

It's odd that them being 7/9d completely puts them above everything in the entire series, save for Root stuff. This completely puts them above Types, above Lostbelt Kings and other gods, etc, which doesn't seem right from a narrative standpoint especially considering these characters have been noted to be the strongest things.

A possible reason for this contradiction is exactly why I don't like this key. A full Heroic Spirit literally can not exist in the series. If we go with the idea that they're above the Mooncell and World, it explains why they're never summoned and instead Grands, and why BB just puts the data into containers rather than yoinking Heroic Spirits whole, etc, but that's the issue, that means they can never be summoned, at all, they only exist in the throne itself and never are able to do combat themselves, or be anywhere but there. This would mean we're indexing a key for an impossibility in the verse.

The only time, in the 17 years this series has gone on, where this rule is possibly broken, that someone can even argue that a Heroic Spirit existing outside of the throne has happened or is possible, is with Jeanne going to the reverse side, and notably struggling to reach the thing she'd be infinitely above if that was the case, which makes no sense given her apparent power if she was a Heroic Spirit at the time.

Aside from this gripe, and the issue of them being above everything else in the series just through statements about certain beings' powers, and the narrative of the series, not entirely making sense, and the fact that this would just be composting every single version of a given servant which would bloat the file to all hell, the stuff in the op logically makes sense.

well so maybe not making a key for each of them but just a page for Heroic spirit as a whole (like we do for race) ? with explication of what heroic spirit have. (like composite skill of their servant version etc) and never god/type/lb were tell to be technically the strongest, e i mean Kiara who reached an existence of buddha(so one of top god) and being renforced by Hans Np was tell to be only be "close" to True demon existence etc, we already know the existence of possible being above them. (+ them being beyond true magi mean they are beyond the six sister and zeltrech who are able to defeat Type)

in the first fate their was tell to be above pratically everything. For the God we have mention of God being dead before the reduction in divine spirit possibly be recorded in throne of heroes too.

• Gods that have died before reduction into Divine Spirits could presumably be recorded into the Throne of heroes.

For Jeanne she got problem to leave Throne of heroes not to go in reverse side, if i recall correctly.

i mean in the two case it leave a problem if grand and heroic spirit are same level of existance, why just not summon the full heroic spirit, same for moon cell they have not limiation in skill or class so would have been way better.

Well we can make them 6/8D too if needed (Weird having same tier than some of your avatar) but then they will need resistance to the entierly of magecraft and Magi as noted in the OP that their are beyond them in nature

 

[Regidian]

adjusts glasses ...so you guys are trying to make a composite version for every Servant?



As far as I know, the World is literally the only thing with the Authority to summon the real body of a Heroic Spirit.

This is mentioned in the World Material.

oh yeah forgot

 

[TypeOU]

Gonna answer tomorrow (well it's past modnight where I live so today technically). I disagree with a lot of your points tho

 

[Regidian]

Gonna answer tomorrow (well it's past modnight where I live so today technically). I disagree with a lot of your points tho

Tomorrow anni so not sure if i will answer directly lol

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

can heroic spirits get type 4 acausality and AE (don't know which type) ?

they have been separated from the Concept of time, it can also be interpreted that they no longer use the normal causality system


Heroic spirits are just Records or results of human history and servants are their form of existence in reality


Heroic spirit is still "Information" produced on earth


and some of them are in the form of Concepts

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I have conflicted thoughts with this but I'm gonna just say that if indeed is made a key for them then it should be: Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

And yeah, i agree with OP

 

[TypeOU]

Being like Grand Servant or Arturia/Gilgamesh of Extella serie are still just avatar of Heroic spirit, they just have better vessel compared to the normal one (grand servant vessel for fgo and better cyber frame for extella)

just because they're not the real deal doesn't necessarily make them weaker, to begin with, a lot of them were actually buffed compared to history, whether they got new abilities or a buff in stats, nothing imply that the servants at the throne are necessarily stronger when the manifestation is what defines their abilities

• "Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."

"Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."

they aren't stronger, it's just that summoning them isn't part of the magicians' skillsets. Magecraft can't summon them because of their nature and it's not like there's a true magic related to summoning

(which mean they are even beyond Avalon who is tell to be a true magi by himself)

except that there is no magician for avalon. It's the 5 magicians they were talking about

For the ability, Heroic spirit are not limited in skill and class like the servant they should be composite version of what we know about them (except if a servant is specified tell to be register in the throne of heroes as a different version than the other self).

agreed

Most of them should have resistance of autority as their are all High divinity being and because the Mythical Mystic code who allow to resist authority of BB is a power coming from them.

disagree. 1. they're clearly not talking about the same divinity gods have since they're compared on that point to fairies, who don't have it. as for them having the mystic code, I'm mitigated I guess? the story can be interpreted either way but it seems to me that it's a power sealed in everyone, " It is something all human beings hold within them."

If people ask, we know that heroic spirit exist in Throne of heroes, their not just information recorded.

I mean it's kinda inconsistent, sometimes it's described as "doing nothing", sometimes they interact with each other and sometimes they are just data, but yeah, they exist most of the time

 

[Regidian]

just because they're not the real deal doesn't necessarily make them weaker, to begin with, a lot of them were actually buffed compared to history, whether they got new abilities or a buff in stats, nothing imply that the servants at the throne are necessarily stronger when the manifestation is what defines their abilities



"Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."

they aren't stronger, it's just that summoning them isn't part of the magicians' skillsets. Magecraft can't summon them because of their nature and it's not like there's a true magic related to summoning


except that there is no magician for avalon. It's the 5 magicians they were talking about


agreed

disagree. 1. they're clearly not talking about the same divinity gods have since they're compared on that point to fairies, who don't have it. as for them having the mystic code, I'm mitigated I guess? the story can be interpreted either way but it seems to me that it's a power sealed in everyone, " It is something all human beings hold within them."


I mean it's kinda inconsistent, sometimes it's described as "doing nothing", sometimes they interact with each other and sometimes they are just data, but yeah, they exist most of the time

Heroic spirit=/=real life them so don't understand why you talk about their history self. Heroic spirit are the dead that have ascend in a higher plane of existance. And are tell that human are litteraly unable to invok them because their are to powerful for it. and we have example of King of conqueror in fate extella where he tell that he got some problem with his vessel otherwise he would be able to fight 1v1 with Extra Gilgamesh.

The manifestation is litteraly the thing that limit them in one class and some skill like i already show in OP which is not the case on throne of heroes, + the first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in higher plane of existance.


It's never stated that it's because magic have no relation with summoning (which is not even the case as the summoning of fuyuki use the third true magic), and the text you send litteraly tell it's not because it's hard to process the summon but because their intrisect nature are beyond what they can do.

"Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."


The Great Grail uses several parts of Heaven's Feel in an attempt to recreate it in its entirety. Using an incomplete version, it takes a raw soul, raw energy made from spiritual particles, and copies information of Heroic Spirits in order to generate Servants.


"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."


It's tell that their are above all Magic and magecraft. Avalon is a true magic meaning they will be above it by logic.


It exist only one definition of divinity and they got it because of faith, so the same than god have so..... (And this version of fairy is already recton with what we know about them ln lb6)

 

[TypeOU]

Heroic spirit=/=real life them so don't understand why you talk about their history self. Heroic spirit are the dead that have ascend in a higher plane of existance. And are tell that human are litteraly unable to invok them because their are to powerful for it. and we have example of King of conqueror in fate extella where he tell that he got some problem with his vessel otherwise he would be able to fight 1v1 with Extra Gilgamesh.

again, the vessel is essential, and there's no mention of the real deal at the throne being necessarily stronger than the one fueled by the saint graph. And the quote you gave litterally says that no humans can summon them, not because they're too strong, but because they aren't magecraft

The manifestation is litteraly the thing that limit them in one class and some skill like i already show in OP which is not the case on throne of heroes, + the first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in higher plane of existance.

I'm not talking about having all of the abilities, I'm talking about the stats. and 4d is still far from 6D to 9D

It's never stated that it's because magic have no relation with summoning (which is not even the case as the summoning of fuyuki use the third true magic), and the text you send litteraly tell it's not because it's hard to process the summon but because their intrisect nature are beyond what they can do.

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."
it litterally said that it's not because they're superior, so beyond here means not part of.
the summoning doesn't use the third true magic, their bodies are formed via an application of the third true magic

The Great Grail uses several parts of Heaven's Feel in an attempt to recreate it in its entirety. Using an incomplete version, it takes a raw soul, raw energy made from spiritual particles, and copies information of Heroic Spirits in order to generate Servants.

yes, heaven's feel generate the body, the greater grail takes the data from the throne thanks to its connection

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."


It's tell that their are above all Magic and magecraft. Avalon is a true magic meaning they will be above it by logic.

really? Because I don't see the word magic here.

It exist only one definition of divinity and they got it because of faith, so the same than god have so..... (And this version of fairy is already recton with what we know about them ln lb6)

no, the definition of divinity is "how close one is to a divine spirit". Fairies aren't gods, so by definition, they can't have the same divinity gods have. If their divinity is truly defined as "the belief of peoples", it has nothing to do with authorities. An authority is resisted by another authority, not by divinity

 

[Regidian]

again, the vessel is essential, and there's no mention of the real deal at the throne being necessarily stronger than the one fueled by the saint graph. And the quote you gave litterally says that no humans can summon them, not because they're too strong, but because they aren't magecraft

I'm not talking about having all of the abilities, I'm talking about the stats. and 4d is still far from 6D to 9D

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."
it litterally said that it's not because they're superior, so beyond here means not part of.
the summoning doesn't use the third true magic, their bodies are formed via an application of the third true magic

yes, heaven's feel generate the body, the greater grail takes the data from the throne thanks to its connection

really? Because I don't see the word magic here.

no, the definition of divinity is "how close one is to a divine spirit". Fairies aren't gods, so by definition, they can't have the same divinity gods have. If their divinity is truly defined as "the belief of peoples", it has nothing to do with authorities. An authority is resisted by another authority, not by divinity

The vessel is not essential, Jeanne was able to outside of Throne of heroes by herself. + One more time, my first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

They have mention of them being stronger... In original Novel their are called higher being of existance.

+ Have this quote when they say the only difference between Grand servant and normal servant is that grand servant have more suitable Vessel for the power of heroic spirit

And we have this too.

Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.


And where it's tell that it's because their aren't magecraft? If that was the case they couldn't even summon the normal servant seriously....

Being called higher plane of existance is not mean to be 4D..... I seriously don't understand your reasoning.


Their are tell to be stronger, how it's hard to read "heroic spirit are the most powerful being"

Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft.

The summoning can little be made only because Justizia body and her third True magic ......


The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic.

Magi is the title of user of magecraft and true magic user + the 5 magicians was mention 2 sec before and even a complete third magic can't summon them.



Divinity is how much close of a god, god have divinity and they are above divine spirit. Anyway what was making them having possibly authority resistance is because their divinity is high enough to make them more close to the planet than the human.


Fairy can't have divinity they have they own system of Greate mother/father and A-rei, the comparaison is because heroic spirit are close to fairy race. And except if you tell that God that have become heroic spirit don't have anymore divinity because of that then big lol


In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.
Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.


Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians (Counter Guardians)? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?

Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


First. God gain power and divinity by faith of people in them. And divinity is what allow to have a stronger authority or weaker + We have already exemple of servant being to resist an authority because their divinity.


Heroic spirit work the same way it's why they are classed as elemental and divine spirit and that they have high divinity and fairy and divine spirit have the two a domain and authority that work the same way.

 

[Regidian]

Anyways anni is here so don't count on me to answer for now lol

 

[TypeOU]

The vessel is not essential, Jeanne was able to outside of Throne of heroes by herself. + One more time, my first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

I'm saying that it's an essential variable, like it defines how strong the servant is y'know? And 5D is still just 5D, not 6D like avalon, or higher. There are 8D servants like gilgamesh

They have mention of them being stronger... In original Novel their are called higher being of existance.

if you're an higher dimensional being compared to a 3D being, you're "at least 4D", that's not higher than 6D, nor is it higher than 8D, what's so hard to understand about that?

+ Have this quote when they say the only difference between Grand servant and normal servant is that grand servant have more suitable Vessel for the power of heroic spirit

again, the vessel isn't necessarily weaker than the heroic spirit, there's no such statement. (also where's the quote?)

And we have this too.

Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.

source? because the wikia gives a source which doesn't say that, at all

And where it's tell that it's because their aren't magecraft? If that was the case they couldn't even summon the normal servant seriously....

litterally in the quote you gave, they are beings beyond magecraft, while not being unsummonable because they're too strong or hard to summon, it litterally means that it's not part of magecraft perks

Being called higher plane of existance is not mean to be 4D..... I seriously don't understand your reasoning.

that's how it works, without further proof, being in a higher plane of existence IS 4D. Unless you can prove that their current plane of existences is, say, 9D

Their are tell to be stronger, how it's hard to read "heroic spirit are the most powerful being"

Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft.

flowery langage, shiki is a being in the nasuverse. If anything they're supposed to be the strongest familiars in this context

The summoning can little be made only because Justizia body and her third True magic ......


The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic.

"The Holy Grail would have only been just a Holy Grail without her, as her will was required for Heavens Feel." is the end of your quote. She is the key to the third magic, not to summoning servants. The grail without justeaze is still the grail, and still has a connection to the root/throne

Magi is the title of user of magecraft and true magic user + the 5 magicians was mention 2 sec before and even a complete third magic can't summon them.

true magic users are magicians (mahōtsukai compared to Majutsushi), and nasu really insist on the fact that any talk about magi doesn't include magicians, even if said magicians also has access to magecraft, like when he compare them or use them as comparison for someone like medea, and it especially doesn't include their magic

Divinity is how much close of a god, god have divinity and they are above divine spirit.

Divinity (神性, Shinsei?) is the measure of whether one has Divine Spirit aptitude or not.

Anyway what was making them having possibly authority resistance is because their divinity is high enough to make them more close to the planet than the human.

source? authorities are pretty explicitly the source of the resistance to other authorities. Gilgamesh and BB have equal authority, so they negate each other. A superior divine spirit is unaffected by the authority of an inferior one because they have a better authority

Fairy can't have divinity they have they own system of Greate mother/father and A-rei, the comparaison is because heroic spirit are close to fairy race. And except if you tell that God that have become heroic spirit don't have anymore divinity because of that then big lol

or you know, they can have both?

In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.
Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.

except that it's also the reference used for their divinities explanation.

Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians (Counter Guardians)? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?

Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


First since you don't seem to know that. God gain power and divinity by faith of people in them. And divinity is what allow to have a stronger authority or weaker + We have already exemple of servant being to resist an authority because their divinity.


Heroic spirit work the same way it's why they are classed as elemental and divine spirit and that they have high divinity and fairy and divine spirit have the two a domain and authority that work the same way.

faith buff their authorities... their already existing authorities. If HS don't have authorities, there's nothing to buff. In comparison, it would be like saying that humans in DC should get superman buff because they also live under a yellow sun

Anyways anni is here so don't count on me to answer for now lol

alright

 

[Vietthai96]

Idk what the hell you guy are debate, but living in higher plane of existence doesn't automatically grant you the higher d

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Obviously they are lower d than their summoned versions, their summoned versions are more powerful than the version in the Throne from where they brought power with various restrictions, the MoonCell can't summon them because they are lower d and their avatars are higher d so it's just meaningless, and we probably will never see a true Heroic Spirit because they are so weak compared to the summoned versions that it's just a waste of time.

Honestly this type of logic it's so absurd that I can't understand it. At the really very least they are the same d than the summoned versions but significantly more powerfuls, and from how I see everything point to them be higher d than the other versions.

 

[TypeOU]

Idk what the hell you guy are debate, but living in higher plane of existence doesn't automatically grant you the higher d

actually they have an higher existence too

Obviously they are lower d than their summoned versions, their summoned versions are more powerful than the version in the Throne from where they brought power with various restrictions, the MoonCell can't summon them because they are lower d and their avatars are higher d so it's just meaningless, and we probably will never see a true Heroic Spirit because they are so weak compared to the summoned versions that it's just a waste of time.

Honestly this type of logic it's so absurd that I can't understand it. At the really very least they are the same d than the summoned versions but significantly more powerfuls, and from how I see everything point to them be higher d than the other versions.

except that servants can have things the HS does not have, like unsealed mythological mystic code, a saint graph, hacks to amplify them

 

[QuasiYuri]

actually they have an higher existence too

except that servants can have things the HS does not have, like unsealed mythological mystic code, a saint graph, hacks to amplify them

The two first things are servants limitations, not a Heroic Spirit problem.

Also it isn't rare for servants gaining new stuff to ends up as a part of the Heroic Spirit either.

 

[TypeOU]

a saint graph isn't necessarily a nerf, it litterally defines how strong they will be. And the mystic code is explicitly sealed for everyone

 

[QuasiYuri]

a saint graph isn't necessarily a nerf, it litterally defines how strong they will be. And the mystic code is explicitly sealed for everyone

And it can't contain some NPs, such as in Xuanzang's case.

For servants yes, but Heroic Spirit aren't sealed by anything.

 

[Regidian]

the mystic code is tell to be sealed to evry human not every being (except if you tell that void shiki is sealed by ex) and if we want to go above, arturia in exetlla and saber venus are stronger than the extra CCC servant.

the two can kill Velber star and sefar when Nero tell she couldn't beat her with mythical mystic code.

and like yuri have tell, at least in fgo it's described that evrything that a servant get or do is registered in the throne

 

[Regidian]

and saint graph is like the more restrictive thing they can have, it's have limit them in class, in skill, in power, juste see how much grand servant get their power disappear with a big atk

 

[Vietthai96]

actually they have an higher existence too

No you need to prove they are HDE

 

[Regidian]

No you need to prove they are HDE

they scale above people who already acepted as HDE.

 

[Vietthai96]

they scale above people who already acepted as HDE.

Scale in term of what

 

[Regidian]

Scale in term of what

power and existance, some of their avatar are 6/8D

 

[TypeOU]

And it can't contain some NPs, such as in Xuanzang's case.

For servants yes, but Heroic Spirit aren't sealed by anything.

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

the mystic code is tell to be sealed to evry human not every being (except if you tell that void shiki is sealed by ex) and if we want to go above, arturia in exetlla and saber venus are stronger than the extra CCC servant.

you're the one who gotta prove that HSs can use it, not the other way around.

the two can kill Velber star and sefar when Nero tell she couldn't beat her with mythical mystic code.

because artoria has excalibur, gil has EA and karna has vasavi shakti, not because any of them are "true heroic spirits". Their heroic spirits are low 1-C, not every HS

and like yuri have tell, at least in fgo it's described that evrything that a servant get or do is registered in the throne

again, talking about stats

 

[Regidian]

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

you're the one who gotta prove that HSs can use it, not the other way around.

because artoria has excalibur, gil has EA and karna has vasavi shakti, not because any of them are "true heroic spirits". Their heroic spirits are low 1-C, not every HS

again, talking about stats

your first phrase mean litteraly nothing you know ? saint graph don't buff servant outside of their maxiaml power allowed as a servant (otherwise the saint graph just break)....

where i tell that HS can use it ? i tell that this come from them, it's litteraly come from their core like tell in OP

gil wasn't tell to be able to beat Velber star nor Karna (karna jjst beat sefar not velber star), every HS live in the same higher plane of existence and all of them are called higher dimmensionnal being, it's stupid to tell some will have the same power than their dimmension and other not.

and for Nero she litteraly she could have summon a Heroic spirit to help her to defeat Velber star but she choose instead to go with a god

and again it's about stat, just tell me one time where it's mention that the saint gral was able to boost the servant above the heroic spirit.


i mean i don't think it's that hard to understand, Saint graph = vessel for emanation of heroic spirit, vessel exist litteraly because we can't summon them ourself, and even the world be able to summoning one is consiered a miracle.

"Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence."



In first all heroic spirit are normally only summoned by the world, and the world only summon them as grand servant if he use a vessel.

normal servant arejust called "the resulting Servants are described as "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" by Andreson".

 

[QuasiYuri]

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

It is relevant. Saint Graphs can handle servants but not HS, just like how too powerful NP can't be handled by it.

 

[TypeOU]

tour first phrase mean litteraly nothing you know ? it's not

how? because I didn't say "I'm"? I'm saying that just because a servant like the CCC main servants had low 1-C stats thanks to the mythological mystic doesn't mean the HS has it, and the same applies for grand. The grand saint graph defines their stats, so you can't just assume that HS are automatically stronger

It is relevant. Saint Graphs can handle servants but not HS, just like how too powerful NP can't be handled by it.

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

 

[Regidian]

how? because I didn't say "I'm"? I'm saying that just because a servant like the CCC main servants had low 1-C stats thanks to the mythological mystic doesn't mean the HS has it, and the same applies for grand. The grand saint graph defines their stats, so you can't just assume that HS are automatically stronger

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

arturia don't mythical mystic code, and mythical mystic code= power of the heroic spririt core sealed by moon cell.

you litteraly assume that emanation of true body are stronger than the real body because they have a thing that limit their strengh defining her stat......... Do you litteramy understand why they have saint graph as servant in first ?, all saint graph limit the strengh of servant and grand servant to a certain level, i mean litteraly why, king hassan have used all the power of grand saint graph with only one of his big atk hax.

 

[Regidian]

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

arjuna alter laugh, ibuki too we have many description of servant litteraly having "i can't use this NP because limited by my saint graph"

 

[Regidian]

not like we have many example of being telling to be weakened because their saint graph making them even weaker than their alive counterpart, or that pratically every divine spirit have their strengh reduced because the existance of saint graph as servant.


you litteray try to hypothetise that a thing made for containing only an emanation of a being is stronger than the full body whithout these restriction (and the saint graph doesn't even boost people it's the people that boost the saint graph, they just modify it or add more mana in it)

find me a screen where it's tell that their become stronger than their heroic spirit main body as a servant and we can talk about this

 

[TypeOU]

arturia don't mythical mystic code

she is buffed by her superior saint graph, it's called an example

, and mythical mystic code= power of the heroic spririt core sealed by moon cell.

not. The mythological mystic code is the origin of humanity sealed in every living being

you litteraly assume that emanation of true body are stronger than the real body because they have a thing that limit their strengh defining her stat......... Do you litteramy understand why they have saint graph as servant in first ?, all saint graph limit the strengh of servant and grand servant to a certain level, i mean litteraly why, king hassan have used all the power of grand saint graph with only one of his big atk hax.

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

arjuna alter laugh, ibuki too we have many description of servant litteraly having "i can't use this NP because limited by my saint graph"

again, you're the one who gotta prove it. Until you can find an explanation as to why gilgamesh and arthur proto still have their np, it's not a limit of power compared to the HS.

not like we have many example of being telling to be weakened because their saint graph making them even weaker than their alive counterpart, or that pratically every divine spirit have their strengh reduced because the existance of saint graph as servant.

and you managed to give the one wrong example. Divine spirits aren't weaker because their saint graph limit them, they're weaker because they're not gods, like how arcueid could have been at full power during extra but her master thought she was a god so she was nerfed

you litteray try to hypothetise that a thing made for containing only an emanation of a being is stronger than the full body whithout these restriction (and the saint graph doesn't even boost people it's the people that boost the saint graph, they just modify it or add more mana in it)

not emanation, copies.

find me a screen where it's tell that their become stronger than their heroic spirit main body as a servant and we can talk about this

you're the one with the burden of proof