Gouketsu Upgrade?

[Tsotso]

Never mind. If you don't get it, I'm not re-explaining it.

I have no idea what you're even talking about. The only thing you said earlier was that Gouketsu's new scaling and HE's feat aren't very similar in energy yields. But that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I didn't try to use HE's 6-C rating as evidence for Gouketsu being 6-C. That comes from the meteor. I just said that Gouektsu being 6-C shouldn't be an outlier as there's no solid reason to call it such.
What's important to me is whether you think it's an outlier or not for Gouketsu to be that strong. Since you said this earlier:

I'm, for the last time, not saying it's an outlier.

Can I assume you don't?

 

[Damage3245]

So... can we add it..?

I already answered that. Be patient.

 

[ByAsura]

I have no idea what you're even talking about.

I explained it in the very first post on this topic.

The only thing you said earlier was that Gouketsu's new scaling and HE's feat aren't very similar in energy yields. But that had nothing to do with what I was saying.

Which I said. I said that, while it may not be an outlier, it doesn't act as support for anything so it's really just kind of irrelevant.

I didn't try to use HE's 6-C rating as evidence for Gouketsu being 6-C. That comes from the meteor. I just said that Gouektsu being 6-C shouldn't be an outlier as there's no solid reason to call it such.

Yes, I know, but it's a meaningless point, especially in conjunction with the fact that they have no scaling.

What's important to me is whether you think it's an outlier or not for Gouketsu to be that strong. Since you said this earlier:

Can I assume you don't?

I don't necessarily think it's an outlier, but I don't even think your logic is sound.

It's like claiming that a random superhuman destroying a star isn't an outlier because Superman destroyed a Red Giant.

They have no scaling to each other, and their feats aren't even that close.

 

[Tsotso]

Also for the love of all that is holy stop straw manning ByAsura by claiming he's saying it's an outlier. He isn't.

He said this earlier:

The supposed debunks of this feat are are more unreasonable, except for the argument that this is an outlier.

And this:

Tsotso said:
Since Homeless Emperor (a MA cadre like Gouketsu) is 6-C I don't see why Gouketsu and those that scale to him being on that level would be an outlier.

To be fair, Gouketsu would be over 2-4x stronger than Homeless Emperor's blast that terrified Black Sperm and far surpasses Darkshine if this were the case.

Which at the time sorta implied to me he was leaning towards it being an outlier.

Get this through your denser-then-Omnisium skull.

Uncalled for. If I accidentally provoked you to say this by caming off as rude or mean for some reason to you or ByAsura, I apologize. I'm just struggling to see a solid reason for why Gouketsu's upgrade shouldn't be accepted.

 

[ByAsura]

I should have been more clear there. I meant that if you (as in other people, not specifically you) think it's an outlier, that's reasonable. I thought this was clear because I said I'm neutral on Gouketsu scaling.

As for the second comment, I clarified in the next few posts that I wasn't saying it's an outlier.

By the way, I don't support DaReaper's comment.

 

[Tsotso]

I meant that if you (as in other people, not specifically you) think it's an outlier, that's reasonable.

I'm neutral on Gouketsu scaling

Alright then. While I disagree that Gouketsu being higher in the 6-C tier can be used to claim it's an outlier (as Gouketsu was once High 7-A while HE was 7-B and nothing has changed since then in terms of how they scale to each other), since no one seems to be claiming it right now I guess we'll just need to wait for more input from others.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm moreso just annoyed that you were constantly strawmanning and clinging onto two comments that didn't even mean what you said they meant, especially since ByAsura constantly said he wasn't saying it was an outlier, which you then proceeded to ignore and strawman some more. I'm sorry but my tolorance for that kinda crap isn't very high at all, I'm a bit no-nonsense when it comes to constantly committing fallacies.

Regardless this is derailing so let's stop here with maybe one more comment from ya if your feeling it.

 

[Kachon123]

I already answered that. Be patient.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Patience is a virtue seldom found in women-

In all seriousness thou can wait a... month longer! Maybe two!

 

[Kachon123]

Patience is a virtue seldom found in women-

In all seriousness thou can wait a... month longer! Maybe two!

 

[Tsotso]

Regardless this is derailing so let's stop here with maybe one more comment from ya if your feeling it.

I'm moreso just annoyed that you're constantly strawmanning and clinging onto two comments that didn't even mean what you said they meant, especially since ByAsura constantly said he wasn't saying it was an outlier

It's moreso them not being clear in meaning (as ByAsura admitted) rather than me intentionally strawmanning. He only clearly outright stated that he doesn't think it's an outlier when he said this:

I'm, for the last time, not saying it's an outlier.

After which I said this:

What's important to me is whether you think it's an outlier or not for Gouketsu to be that strong. Since you said this earlier:
ByAsura said:
I'm, for the last time, not saying it's an outlier.
Can I assume you don't?

But you're right that now we're derailing the thread so let's just not do that.

 

[Arceus0x]

Would Platinun sperm scale?

 

[Tsotso]

Would Platinun sperm scale?

To Gouketsu? I can't immediately think of any reason why he would scale.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

one point Gouketsu was High-7-A while most

That was only through up scaling and back when the others were 7-A

 

[Tsotso]

That was only through up scaling and back when the others were 7-A

At the point in time I posted about Gouketsu, HE was 7-B, not 7-A.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

At the point in time I posted about Gouketsu, HE was 7-B, not 7-A.

No? HE was 6-C by then

 

[Tsotso]

No? HE was 6-C by then

The record of Gouketsu's profile I posted was from the 17th of October 2020.
Homeless Emperor was still 7-B three days later.

 

[Therefir]

Homeless Emperor's strongest attack has been recalculated at Mountain level.

Not sure if it helps at all here, but there you go.

 

[Tsotso]

Homeless Emperor's strongest attack has been recalculated at Mountain level.

Not sure if it helps at all here, but there you go.

I don't see a way this really impacts Gouketsu's upgrade.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see a way this really impacts Gouketsu's upgrade.

Well somebody said, "This wouldn't be an outlier for Gouektsu because one of the Cadres is already 6-C."

 

[Tsotso]

Well somebody said, "This wouldn't be an outlier for Gouektsu because one of the Cadres is already 6-C."

My point at the time was that Gouketsu and HE have never had direct scaling and since Gouketsu at one point was way above HE, it wouldn't be an outlier for him to be upgraded to a higher level in 6-C than Homeless Emperor as there's no contradiction.
However, that had nothing to do with the method Gouketsu's upgrade used to get him to 6-C and I never claimed it did.

However, right now I'm thinking of a possible way to scale Gouketsu above Homeless Emperor using only statements though whether it will make sense or be accepted is something I'm not certain about right now. Once I complete this "train of though" thingy I have in mind and it seems sound I'll post it here.

 

[Tsotso]

Here's how Gouketsu scales above Homeless Emperor (I think).

First lets's get one thing straight. Gyoro Gyoro/Psykos has the ability to measure the power levels of monsters. This is an indisputable fact that's not contradicted by anything.
She was able to measure that Rhino Wrestler had gotten stronger and reached Demon level.
She also measured three other monsters as Demon level with one of them confirming that she has the ability to measure power levels.
It's also stated that the Monster Association cares about raw power above all else. This implies that Gyoro Gyoro (who measures how strong the monsters are) bases her statements concerning the monsters mostly on how powerful she knows they are.
Gyoro Gyoro does admit that she can't measure the power of being on the level of Orochi. However, he is 5-C+ so anyone weaker than that (which is everyone) among the cadres can be assumed to be accurately measurable by her.

With that in mind, here is the actual scaling. I'm just gonna get straight to the point - Psykos thought Gouketsu was above everyone in the S-Class back when she thought Tatsumaki was at the level of Elder Centipede. Here's why:

• She was shocked that someone could defeat Gouketsu and couldn't think of who could have done this despite King being a possible suspect as his whereabouts during the Monster Association's attack on the cities was completely unknown to her at the time. This scales Gouketsu above Psykos' depiction of King's strength at the time which is at least on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede.
• Gouketsu's death lead Psykos to assume the Hero Association had a secret weapon that she claims is above the S-Class. She claimed this after learning of Elder Centipede's death which her and the others from the Monster Association attributed to King, even thinking that he did it with one attack. Yet Psykos still didn't think King could have been responsible for killing Gouketsu even when she didn't know his whereabouts at the time of Gouketsu's death and still attributed it to the "secret weapon above the S-Class" later. This means that to her (who has measured the power levels of Gouketsu and Elder Centipede due to her making statements about who can fight them) someone with the power to one shot Elder Centipede isn't strong enough to defeat Gouketsu. This is key to the next bit of scaling.
• Gyoro Gyoro thought that she could defeat Tatsumaki (who she thought was Elder Centipede level) in her true form. After Tatsumaki defeated the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and made Psykos think she's actually above the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and therefore above EC level, she thought that Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat her.

Here's thing, however. For reasons already stated, Psykos thought that the power to one shot an Elder Centipede level monster was not enough to beat Gouketsu. Yet here she thinks Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat someone who can overpower an EC level combatant.

So basically (From the perspective of Psykos, who knows how strong the MA cadres are):
Gouketsu > Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Tatsumaki (In Psykos' eyes when her Gyoro Gyoro puppet got overpowered) = Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Homeless Emperor <~ Someone that can one shot an EC level monster (As Psykos thought he would need help against Tatsumaki at that point in time)
Therefore: Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor

I may have missed something like a statement that debunks this whole scaling shtick so if anyone finds such a thing please say so because I don't want to accidentally be spreading misinformation.

 

[Damage3245]

She was shocked that someone could defeat Gouketsu and couldn't think of who could have done this despite King being a possible suspect as his whereabouts during the Monster Association's attack on the cities was completely unknown to her at the time. This scales Gouketsu above Psykos' depiction of King's strength at the time which is at least on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede.

Questioning who did it is not the same as being unable to think of anyone who could do it.

Gouketsu's death lead Psykos to assume the Hero Association had a secret weapon that she claims is above the S-Class.

She doesn't say that Gouketsu's death leads her to think that.

She never rules out King being a possibility for who killed Gouketsu.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Here's how Gouketsu scales above Homeless Emperor (I think).

First lets's get one thing straight. Gyoro Gyoro/Psykos has the ability to measure the power levels of monsters. This is an indisputable fact that's not contradicted by anything.
She was able to measure that Rhino Wrestler had gotten stronger and reached Demon level.
She also measured three other monsters as Demon level with one of them confirming that she has the ability to measure power levels.
It's also stated that the Monster Association cares about raw power above all else. This implies that Gyoro Gyoro (who measures how strong the monsters are) bases her statements concerning the monsters mostly on how powerful she knows they are.
Gyoro Gyoro does admit that she can't measure the power of being on the level of Orochi. However, he is 5-C+ so anyone weaker than that (which is everyone) among the cadres can be assumed to be accurately measurable by her.

With that in mind, here is the actual scaling. I'm just gonna get straight to the point - Psykos thought Gouketsu was above everyone in the S-Class back when she thought Tatsumaki was at the level of Elder Centipede. Here's why:

• She was shocked that someone could defeat Gouketsu and couldn't think of who could have done this despite King being a possible suspect as his whereabouts during the Monster Association's attack on the cities was completely unknown to her at the time. This scales Gouketsu above Psykos' depiction of King's strength at the time which is at least on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede.
• Gouketsu's death lead Psykos to assume the Hero Association had a secret weapon that she claims is above the S-Class. She claimed this after learning of Elder Centipede's death which her and the others from the Monster Association attributed to King, even thinking that he did it with one attack. Yet Psykos still didn't think King could have been responsible for killing Gouketsu even when she didn't know his whereabouts at the time of Gouketsu's death and still attributed it to the "secret weapon above the S-Class" later. This means that to her (who has measured the power levels of Gouketsu and Elder Centipede due to her making statements about who can fight them) someone with the power to one shot Elder Centipede isn't strong enough to defeat Gouketsu. This is key to the next bit of scaling.
• Gyoro Gyoro thought that she could defeat Tatsumaki (who she thought was Elder Centipede level) in her true form. After Tatsumaki defeated the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and made Psykos think she's actually above the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and therefore above EC level, she thought that Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat her.

Here's thing, however. For reasons already stated, Psykos thought that the power to one shot an Elder Centipede level monster was not enough to beat Gouketsu. Yet here she thinks Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat someone who can overpower an EC level combatant.

So basically (From the perspective of Psykos, who knows how strong the MA cadres are):
Gouketsu > Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Tatsumaki (In Psykos' eyes when her Gyoro Gyoro puppet got overpowered) = Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Homeless Emperor <~ Someone that can one shot an EC level monster (As Psykos thought he would need help against Tatsumaki at that point in time)
Therefore: Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor

I may have missed something like a statement that debunks this whole scaling shtick so if anyone finds such a thing please say so because I don't want to accidentally be spreading misinformation.

Would Psykos automatically consider someone who is stronger than Gyoro Gyoro as strong enough one shot Elder Centipede? Or is there another reason why Psykos' view of Tatsumaki gets equated to one shotting Elder Centipede?

 

[Tsotso]

Questioning who did it is not the same as being unable to think of anyone who could do it.

I agree. But there's another reason to think she didn't consider King as the one who could've done it.

She doesn't say that Gouketsu's death leads her to think that.

Him and Elder Centipede were the strongest MA members defeated up to that point.
She thinks EC was defeated by King with one attack yet refuses to attribute Gouketsu's death to him and instead says that there's probably someone above the S-Class which means she considers killing Gouketsu on a higher level than one shotting EC.

She never rules out King being a possibility for who killed Gouketsu.

If one shotting Gouketsu was on the level of one shotting EC in Psykos' eyes she wouldn't have said that there's a secret weapon above the S-Class.

 

[Worthless]

Here's how Gouketsu scales above Homeless Emperor (I think).

First lets's get one thing straight. Gyoro Gyoro/Psykos has the ability to measure the power levels of monsters. This is an indisputable fact that's not contradicted by anything.
She was able to measure that Rhino Wrestler had gotten stronger and reached Demon level.
She also measured three other monsters as Demon level with one of them confirming that she has the ability to measure power levels.
It's also stated that the Monster Association cares about raw power above all else. This implies that Gyoro Gyoro (who measures how strong the monsters are) bases her statements concerning the monsters mostly on how powerful she knows they are.
Gyoro Gyoro does admit that she can't measure the power of being on the level of Orochi. However, he is 5-C+ so anyone weaker than that (which is everyone) among the cadres can be assumed to be accurately measurable by her.

Okay but didn't Gyoro still thinks Gouketsu can't beat some class S heroes on his own? Though it didn't exactly says who but i bet it's Tatsumaki, king and or bang

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay but didn't Gyoro still thinks Gouketsu can't beat some class S heroes on his own? Though it didn't exactly says who but i bet it's Tatsumaki, king and or bang

I recall that the worry was about Gouketsu potentially facing multiple S-Class heroes.

 

[Tsotso]

Would Psykos automatically consider someone who is stronger than Gyoro Gyoro as strong enough one shot Elder Centipede?

Gyoro Gyoro considered Tatsumaki as able to compete against EC.
Psykos thinks true form Gyoro Gyoro can defeat Tatsumaki but we don't know how just how much stronger she considers the puppet compared to Tatsumaki. Therefore the only definitive extrapolation would be that the true form puppet is slightly above EC level Tatsumaki. Anything more would be headcanon.
Tatsumaki then overpowers the slightly above EC level puppet but whether that qualifies for being on the "one shot EC" tier in Psykos' eyes is not entirely clear but the Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor scaling doesn't change even if she's not quite there. The point is that HE would need help to beat her while one shotting EC wouldn't be enought to beat Gouketsu.

 

[Tsotso]

Okay but didn't Gyoro still thinks Gouketsu can't beat some class S heroes on his own? Though it didn't exactly says who but i bet it's Tatsumaki, king and or bang

She was worried about multiple S-Class heroes fighting Gouketsu at once. She didn't say a single one of them would give him trouble but multiple at once. Since we don't know what combination of S-Class heroes she considered enough to give Gouketsu difficulty, it's a mostly unquantifiable statement that only tells us she has an idea of the level of power Gouketsu is at.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Gyoro Gyoro considered Tatsumaki as able to compete against EC.
Psykos thinks true form Gyoro Gyoro can defeat Tatsumaki but we don't know how just how much stronger she considers the puppet compared to Tatsumaki. Therefore the only definitive extrapolation would be that the true form puppet is slightly above EC level Tatsumaki. Anything more would be headcanon.
Tatsumaki then overpowers the slightly above EC level puppet but whether that qualifies for being on the "one shot EC" tier in Psykos' eyes is not entirely clear but the Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor scaling doesn't change even if she's not quite there. The point is that HE would need help to beat her while one shotting EC wouldn't be enought to beat Gouketsu.

Okay.

 

[Damage3245]

If one shotting Gouketsu was on the level of one shotting EC in Psykos' eyes she wouldn't have said that there's a secret weapon above the S-Class.

She said there might be, didn't she?

 

[Worthless]

In your own words "You're exaggerating on this part". We don't know what these ordinary means actually mean and whether it's referring to Gouketsu specifically. Your interpretation about Gouketsu not being as special as EC is headcanon and contradicted by Gyoro Gyoro stating that there may be a hero above the S-Class just because someone killed Gouketsu. This excludes King as a suspect as he is among the S-Class.

Don't act stupid the "Ordinary means" in context is Obviously Gouketsu, as she stated it right after he died. I still don't know why would you put him above king just because she didn't think he's the one who did it she's just shock and genuinely don't know who the culprit really is and the "Trump card of HA just because someone just killed Gouketsu" argument is a massive assumption.

 

[Tsotso]

She said there might be, didn't she?

Correct. But that doesn't change anything. Here's why.
The point is that she can quantify the feats of one shotting EC and killing Gouketsu as she knows how strong they are. Because of this, the "might" part can't mean that she's unsure whether killing him is above the S-Class' capabilities (in her eyes) and therefore above one shotting EC. It could only mean that she's unsure if whoever killed Gouketsu is a member of the Hero Association. The "might" part refers to her not being sure of the identity and alliegence of whoever killed Gouketsu, not to her not being sure if that person exists or is above the S-Class as she can quantify the feats of killing EC with one attack and killing Gouketsu.

 

[Tsotso]

Don't act stupid

Ah yes, the usual argument from someone without a solid argument. I've heard this before.

Ordinary means" in context is Obviously Gouketsu, as she stated it right after he died.

That doesn't prove the ordinary means was referring to him. If you're trying to say it must be true because it's the only interpretation, you're wrong. For example, another interpretation is that she was referring to her means of defeating the S-Class later but the existence of someone that can defeat Gouketsu makes those means uncertain to work.
See, there's another interpretation. Now unless you can prove it's wrong or that yours is right for reasons other than "Don't act stupid", go ahead.

I still don't know why would you put him above king just because she didn't think he's the one who did it she's just shock and genuinely don't know who the culprit really is and the "Trump card of HA just because someone just killed Gouketsu" is massive assumption.

It's the only possible reason. EC and Gouketsu were the strongest cadres defeated up to that point. Since Psykos thinks King one shot EC yet still assumes there's someone above the S-Class, it could only be referring to Gouketsu's death.
Who else's death could motivate her to think that if it's not EC or Gouketsu's?

 

[Worthless]

That doesn't prove the ordinary means was referring to him. If you're trying to say it must be true because it's the only interpretation, you're wrong. For example, another interpretation is that she was referring to her means of defeating the S-Class later but the existence of someone that can defeat Gouketsu makes those means uncertain to work.
See, there's another interpretation. Now unless you can prove it's wrong or that yours is right for reasons other than "Don't act stupid", go ahead.

Ugh That is just so sad you're completely lying to yourself I'm sure you know she's literally referring to him ugh arguing any further about it seems pointless since I'm sure you'll just keep using that lame ass argument over and over

 

[Tsotso]

Ugh That is just so sad you're completely lying to yourself I'm sure you know she's literally referring to him ugh arguing any further about it seems pointless since I'm sure you'll just keep using that lame ass argument over and over

You haven't presented anything here other than "I'm sure it's true and I'm sure you know too"

 

[Worthless]

I already said it i just don't wanted to repeat it and since i don't wanted to hear your lame argument over and over again. "That's your interpretation" I could say the same thing with yow ass thinking Gouketsu > king and that the reason why Gyoro said that is because of Gouketsu death... bruh that's like so lame

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't think that it is a good idea to let this verbally escalate.

 

[Tsotso]

I already said it i just don't wanted to repeat it and since i don't wanted to hear your lame argument over and over again. "That's your interpretation" I could say the same thing with yow ass thinking Gouketsu > king and that the reason why Gyoro said that is because of Gouketsu death... bruh that's like so lame

Your arguments are like your username.

My interpretation is backed up by scans and reasoning while yours is backed by "I'm sure you know she's literally referring to him ugh".
I'll make it simple:
Can you prove that the ordinary means were referring to Gouketsu even when there are other possibilities?
Can you point out what made Gyoro Gyoro say there was someone above her depiction of the S-Class if it wasn't Gouketsu's death?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Anyways what result does the meteor punch get anyways.