Gouketsu Upgrade?

[Damage3245]

Even if your proposal was accepted, it wouldn't be Gouketsu scaling to the meteor itself but Gouketsu scaling to Saitama's destruction of the meteor which doesn't fully scale to the whole thing since the remaining fragements continued to wipe out portions of the city.

 

[Tsotso]

It would likely still be an upgrade.

 

[ByAsura]

That's why I said 2-4, btw.

I see no contradiction with that.
Darkshine fought Kabuto for 15 minutes so they were relative. Meanwhile Genos states that Gouketsu is above that.

Yeah, but Homeless Emperor did this to Fuhrer with orbs this size.

 

[Tsotso]

Yeah, but Homeless Emperor did this to Fuhrer with orbs this size.

And how exactly does this contradict Gouketsu's scaling?
Also, Homeless Emperor's orbs aren't always size=power.
He attacked Iaian and Spring Mustachio with orbs similar in size to the ones used against VFU. Yet they could deflect them.
Does this mean Iaian and Spring Mustachio are stronger than VFU? No. It just means HE can condense powerful orbs into smaller sizes than they would usually be.

 

[King]

And how exactly does this contradict Gouketsu's scaling?
Also, Homeless Emperor's orbs aren't always size=power.
He attacked Iaian and Spring Mustachio with orbs similar in size to the ones used against VFU. Yet they could deflect them.
Does this mean Iaian and Spring Mustachio are stronger than VFU? No. It just means HE can condense powerful orbs into smaller sizes than they would usually be.

In homeless emperor's case, size has been proportional to power of the orb. But in Iain's case, Homeless Emperor was deliberately trying to hold back but he didn't do that against fuhrer.

 

[ByAsura]

My point wasn't that it contradicted Gouketsu's scaling, you just said it's in-line with Homeless Emperor's feat, so I'm telling you that it really isn't in-line with even his strongest orbs, which are far superior to orbs that already far surpass some of the strongest heroes in-verse.

They do vary in size and power, but you can't argue that a massive charged attack is in any way comparable to tiny machine gun orbs.

 

[Tsotso]

In homeless emperor's case, size has been proportional to power of the orb.

Where was that stated?

But in Iain's case, Homeless Emperor was deliberately trying to hold back but he didn't do that against fuhrer.

I mean if he can control the power of the orbs as in the example of the ones vs Iaian and SM being the same size as those used against VFU then why is size=power?

 

[Worthless]

This seems a little headcanony. We don't have a standard for what timeframes of encounters count towards determining whether a statement stemming from that encounter is valid or not.


The point is that Genos has seen Saitama dispose of the meteor easily and by himself yet with Gouketsu Genos thought it would be best if Saitama had support from S-Class heroes. If there was another meteor identical to the one Saitama destroyed, Genos wouldn't have said what he did about Gouketsu as he knows Saitama could easily handle it himself.

I don't see how this demand to be spoonfed something really specific debunks Genos' statement about Gouketsu.

Gouketsu is a short-lived character. He was there to cause some troble and be one punched by Saitama. Yet it's clear that ONE and Murata intended him to be powerful beyond just his feats considering the lengths they went to have many different characters say he's a big deal.

• Genos' statement about him.
• Suiryu saying he was on a whole other level than Bakuzan (a Dragon level monster)
• Gyoro Gyoro saying that many S-Class heroes would be too much for even Gouketsu to handle.
• Gyoro Gyoro being really surprised by Gouketsu being defeated and not being able to think of who could've done this despite having a lot of info on the S-Class.
• Hellfire and Gale stating that the power gap left by Gouketsu and EC was too big to be filled by the inclusion of Garou into the MA.
• Gyoro Gyoro assuming that the Hero Association have some secret weapon in their arsenal due to Gouketsu dying (as in the eyes of the HA and MA King defeated EC so GG wouldn't consider EC's defeat as due to this "secret weapon"). Gyoro Gyoro even says that this secret weapon may be above the S-Class.

"And guess what? That still can't be true" the opposition argument is so weak

 

[King]

Where was that stated?

I mean if he can control the power of the orbs as in the example of the ones vs Iaian and SM being the same size as those used against VFU then why is size=power?

There are levels to it. It is clearly visible that when he's going for large destruction, he always creates a huge orb compared to the machine guns he used against Fuhrer and Iain. Moreover, he can also control their temperature or something. So he went for less temperature against Iain but went full on machine gun against Fuhrer.

But why are we arguing for homeless here? This is Goketsu's time to shine.

 

[Magmag]

Also for the Gouketsu case, would Genos really be calcing Saitama’s KE on the meteor and when he sees Gouketsu be like dam, Saitama’s KE aint looking to good against this guy…
I think in Genos comparison of Saitama’s strength he sees Saitama destroys meteor meaning
Saitama>=Meteor
And Gouketsu>Saitama>=Meteor

 

[King]

There are levels to it. It is clearly visible that when he's going for large destruction, he always creates a huge orb compared to the machine guns he used against Fuhrer and Iain. Moreover, he can also control their temperature or something. So he went for less temperature against Iain but went full on machine gun against Fuhrer.

But why are we arguing for homeless here? This is Goketsu's time to shine.

It's Goketsu's time to shine. A useless character who never added anything for the story and was a complete jobber but keeps getting upgraded every frickin' time.

 

[Tsotso]

My point wasn't that it contradicted Gouketsu's scaling, you just said it's in-line with Homeless Emperor's feat

I said it's not an outlier for Gouketsu to be in tier 6-C as we already have an accepted character in the tier. I didn't say that their power in that tier is equal.

so I'm telling you that it really isn't in-line with even his strongest attacks that far surpass some of the strongest heroes in-verse.

Totally irrelevant. What heroes scale directly to Gouketsu's proposed 6-C level? Bang with AB and that's it. Therefore Gouketsu getting an upgrade doesn't contradict Homeless' strongest attacks being strong compared to some of the heroes heroes.

They do vary in size and power, but you can't argue that a massive charged attack is comparable to tiny machine gun orbs.

HE's orbs seem a bit too vague to argue about as we have no direct statement about size=power yet he always makes big ones when he wants to cause damage. Let's leave it at that. This is about Gouketsu.

 

[Kachon123]

And Gouketsu>Saitama>=Meteor

* Gouketsu = Saitama>=Meteor

 

[Tsotso]

I think in Genos comparison of Saitama’s strength he sees Saitama destroys meteor meaning
Saitama>=Meteor
And Gouketsu>Saitama>=Meteor

Genos didn't say Gouketsu was comparable to or stronger than Saitama. In fact, him saying Saitama with S-Class heroes is the "safe way" to beat Gouketsu implies that Genos thinks there is a "less safe but still doable" way of beating Gouketsu, likely involving just Saitama.

 

[Magmag]

* Gouketsu = Saitama>=Meteor

^^

 

[ByAsura]

Also for the Gouketsu case, would Genos really be calcing Saitama’s KE on the meteor and when he sees Gouketsu be like dam, Saitama’s KE aint looking to good against this guy…
I think in Genos comparison of Saitama’s strength he sees Saitama destroys meteor meaning
Saitama>=Meteor
And Gouketsu>Saitama>=Meteor

Saitama's destruction nullified the most of the energy according to Genos himself, so the feat is moderately weaker if anything.

I said it's not an outlier for Gouketsu to be in tier 6-C as we already have an accepted character in the tier. I didn't say that their power in that tier is equal.

I know what you said, but I'm saying it's pretty far above the feat you're using for this reasoning.

Totally irrelevant. What heroes scale directly to Gouketsu's proposed 6-C level? Bang with AB and that's it. Therefore Gouketsu getting an upgrade doesn't contradict Homeless' strongest attacks being strong compared to some of the heroes heroes.

It's evidence that it's not really in-line with his actual feats either.

HE's orbs seem a bit too vague to argue about as we have no direct statement about size=power yet he always makes big ones when he wants to cause damage. Let's leave it at that. This is about Gouketsu.

It's obvious that this attack is way above the others.

 

[Magmag]

Genos didn't say Gouketsu was comparable to or stronger than Saitama. In fact, him saying Saitama with S-Class heroes is the "safe way" to beat Gouketsu implies that Genos thinks there is a "less safe but still doable" way of beating Gouketsu, likely involving just Saitama.

He wouldn’t have needed to include an overpowered arsenal in S class if he was still “confident” in Saitama somehow pulling it off. So either way Gouketsu would have a “winning chance with just a punch” so Gouketsu is relative to Saitama/meteor.

 

[Magmag]

Saitama's destruction nullified the most of the energy, so it only scales to part of it.

Yeah but once again, is Genos accounting for Saitama being part of the meteor. Genos ain’t out here calcing like us and finding KE of Saitama’s punch. He sees Saitama as destroying it.

 

[Tsotso]

He wouldn’t have needed to include an overpowered arsenal in S class if he was still “confident” in Saitama somehow pulling it off. So either way Gouketsu would have a “winning chance with just a punch” so Gouketsu is relative to Saitama/meteor.

Genos considers Saitama way above any of the other S-Class heroes as during the Alien Invasion he considered them unnecessary because Saitama was there. So then why would he think Saitama needs their help against Gouketsu if Gouektsu = Saitama in Genos' eyes?

 

[ByAsura]

Genos is the one who says he nullified the majority of the impact energy.

I edited this in, but I guess you didn't see it.

 

[Magmag]

Genos considers Saitama way above any of the other S-Class heroes as during the Alien Invasion he considered them unnecessary because Saitama was there. So then why would he think Saitama needs their help against Gouketsu if Gouektsu = Saitama in Genos' eyes?

That’s why I said “either way” cuz u pushed the “safe way” and I said regardless of what way Gouketsu still scales.

 

[Magmag]

Genos is the one who says he nullified the majority of the impact energy.

I edited this in, but I guess you didn't see it.

fair.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree that he thinks they're superior even in the Super Fight arc, but keep in mind this is before Genos saw Tatsumaki's Boros feats (which, like I said in my first comment, supports the notion that Gouketsu is relative to the meteor) and the S-Class' physical data.

He was most likely basing it on their ratings, rankings and the fact that he himself was an S-Class.

 

[Tsotso]

Saitama's destruction nullified the most of the energy according to Genos himself, so the feat is moderately weaker if anything.

Still an upgrade.

I know what you said, but I'm saying it's pretty far above the feat you're using for this reasoning.

It's evidence that it's not really in-line with his actual feats either.

So what you're saying is...it makes more sense for Homeless Emperor to be at least 43x stronger than Gouketsu rather than Gouketsu being 2-4x stronger than Homeless Emperor? Umm, why?

It's obvious that this attack is way above the others.

Cool. Doesn't contradict Gouketsu's scaling.

 

[ByAsura]

Still an upgrade.

Not contesting that.

So what you're saying is...it makes more sense for Homeless Emperor to be at least 43x stronger than Gouketsu rather than Gouketsu being 2-4x stronger than Homeless Emperor? Umm, why?

Never said nor even implied such a thing, and it could literally be either or because they have no direct scaling, I'm just contesting your logic.

Cool. Doesn't contradict Gouketsu's scaling.

Cool, that wasn't the point.

 

[Tsotso]

Never said nor even implied such a thing, and it could literally be either or because they have no direct scaling, I'm just contesting your logic.

You said Gouketsu being 2-4x stronger than Homeless Emperor somehow contests what I said about it not being an outlier because we have a MA cadre in the 6-C tier. But why?
It's not a 100x difference or anything. Not all MA cadres are equal in power. So why exactly would Gouketsu being 2-4x stronger than HE make it an outlier?

 

[Damage3245]

Homeless Emperor may not be remaining 6-C for long, just saying.

 

[ByAsura]

No, what I said was that this doesn't set some sort of precedent for Gouketsu's meteor scaling. The energy ball and meteor aren't very close, and they have no direct scaling.

Homeless Emperor may not be remaining 6-C for long, just saying.

More of a test, but I did a calc for Homeless Emperor.

 

[Tsotso]

At one point Gouketsu was High-7-A while most other strong characters including HE were 7-B yet Gouketsu's high rating wasn't considered an outlier. So why would it being higher than HE be an outlier now?

 

[DaReaperMan]

At one point Gouketsu was High-7-A while most other strong characters including HE were 7-B yet Gouketsu's high rating wasn't considered an outlier. So why would it being higher than HE be an outlier now?

At one point=/=now.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm, for the last time, not saying it's an outlier. I'm just contesting your claim that this in any way acts as support for anyone.

 

[Tsotso]

I'm just contesting your claim that this in any way acts as support for anyone.

I never said HE being 6-C supports Gouketsu being 6-C. I just said that having other MA cadres in the tier supports Gouketsu being 6-C not being an outlier.

 

[Tsotso]

At one point=/=now.

And what exactly changed that makes Gouketsu being stronger than HE an outlier now even though they still have no direct scaling?

 

[ByAsura]

I acknowledged what you said in the second post, I'm just saying something slightly different and tried to make that as clear as possible.

 

[Tsotso]

I acknowledged what you said in the second post

What second post?

I'm just saying something slightly different.

What?

 

[DaReaperMan]

And what exactly changed that makes Gouketsu being stronger than HE an outlier now even though they still have no direct scaling?

Did I say I was agreeing or disagreeing with the current debate recently? Just pointing out facts.

 

[Tsotso]

Did I say I was agreeing or disagreeing with the current debate recently? Just pointing out facts.

OK then.

 

[ByAsura]

What second post?

What?

Never mind. If you don't get it, I'm not re-explaining points. This discussion has little to do with the thread anyway.

 

[Kachon123]

So... can we add it..?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also for the love of all that is holy stop straw manning ByAsura by claiming he's saying it's an outlier. He isn't. Get this through your denser-then-Omnisium skull.