Gouketsu Upgrade?

[mal]

Murata considers Gouketsu destroying half of a stadium as something impressive.

If he really scaled from the meteor, he would be able to destroy an entire city in one hit.

People here are trying to scale Gouketsu to something he clearly isn't able to do.

bro theres many characters that cant destroy moon but still have planetary ap.

 

[Tsotso]

bro theres many characters that cant destroy moon but still have planetary ap.

He said he gave up on that argument:

I know we work by attack potency and not destruction capacity so I will drop that argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Anyways what result does the meteor punch get anyways.

Therefir mentioned it was along the lines of Town level just for fragmenting it.


I can concede to giving Gouketsu a "possibly/likely higher" since the upper bound of his strength may be higher than his current rating, but he should not be 6-C based on the evidence we have so far.

 

[Tsotso]

No one has been able to debunk my Gouketsu scaling yet:

Here's how Gouketsu scales above Homeless Emperor (I think).

First lets's get one thing straight. Gyoro Gyoro/Psykos has the ability to measure the power levels of monsters. This is an indisputable fact that's not contradicted by anything.
She was able to measure that Rhino Wrestler had gotten stronger and reached Demon level.
She also measured three other monsters as Demon level with one of them confirming that she has the ability to measure power levels.
It's also stated that the Monster Association cares about raw power above all else. This implies that Gyoro Gyoro (who measures how strong the monsters are) bases her statements concerning the monsters mostly on how powerful she knows they are.
Gyoro Gyoro does admit that she can't measure the power of being on the level of Orochi. However, he is 5-C+ so anyone weaker than that (which is everyone) among the cadres can be assumed to be accurately measurable by her.

With that in mind, here is the actual scaling. I'm just gonna get straight to the point - Psykos thought Gouketsu was above everyone in the S-Class back when she thought Tatsumaki was at the level of Elder Centipede. Here's why:

• She was shocked that someone could defeat Gouketsu and couldn't think of who could have done this despite King being a possible suspect as his whereabouts during the Monster Association's attack on the cities was completely unknown to her at the time. This scales Gouketsu above Psykos' depiction of King's strength at the time which is at least on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede.
• Gouketsu's death lead Psykos to assume the Hero Association had a secret weapon that she claims is above the S-Class. She claimed this after learning of Elder Centipede's death which her and the others from the Monster Association attributed to King, even thinking that he did it with one attack. Yet Psykos still didn't think King could have been responsible for killing Gouketsu even when she didn't know his whereabouts at the time of Gouketsu's death and still attributed it to the "secret weapon above the S-Class" later. This means that to her (who has measured the power levels of Gouketsu and Elder Centipede due to her making statements about who can fight them) someone with the power to one shot Elder Centipede isn't strong enough to defeat Gouketsu. This is key to the next bit of scaling.
• Gyoro Gyoro thought that she could defeat Tatsumaki (who she thought was Elder Centipede level) in her true form. After Tatsumaki defeated the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and made Psykos think she's actually above the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and therefore above EC level, she thought that Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat her.

Here's thing, however. For reasons already stated, Psykos thought that the power to one shot an Elder Centipede level monster was not enough to beat Gouketsu. Yet here she thinks Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat someone who can overpower an EC level combatant.

So basically (From the perspective of Psykos, who knows how strong the MA cadres are):
Gouketsu > Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Tatsumaki (In Psykos' eyes when her Gyoro Gyoro puppet got overpowered) = Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Homeless Emperor <~ Someone that can one shot an EC level monster (As Psykos thought he would need help against Tatsumaki at that point in time)
Therefore: Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor

I may have missed something like a statement that debunks this whole scaling shtick so if anyone finds such a thing please say so because I don't want to accidentally be spreading misinformation.

So if the "Gouketsu getting 6-C due to scaling to the meteor" idea is dropped, we can still scale to him to Homeless Emperor unless someone provides evidence for the contrary.

 

[Arceus0x]

the garou rock feat needs evaluation, the feat was recalced with a colossal variety of methods and thus had very different results. It ranges from baseline 7-A to low 5-B depending on the method and it needs serious input
(the reason behind it seems that, depending on the speed and weight, which vary significantly, the KE and stuff changes drastically)

 

[Damage3245]

@Tsotso; Well, I did already address your new argument. It relies on some potentially unsupported assumptions about the statements Gyoro-Gyoro gives.

 

[Tsotso]

@Tsotso; Well, I did already address your new argument. It relies on some potentially unsupported assumptions about the statements Gyoro-Gyoro gives.

And I already addressed your addressions.
When a possibility is the only one, it is a certainty.

Gyoro Gyoro stating that the Hero Association may have a weapon above the S-Class could only mean she was referring to whoever killed Gouketsu as EC's death was attributed to King who's from the S-Class. Therefore killing Gouketsu is superior to one shotting EC to such a degree that Gyoro Gyoro refuses to attribute Gouketsu's death to King and instead speculates about someone above the S-Class.

That's not a baseless assumption. That's the one single possibility. Unless you can think of another one, of course, which you know, may be possible.

If there are other "potentially unsupported assumptions" please tell me what they are as like I said at the end of the post:

I may have missed something like a statement that debunks this whole scaling shtick so if anyone finds such a thing please say so because I don't want to accidentally be spreading misinformation.

 

[King]

I am fine with this upgrade. Honestly, I feel like no one largely cares about Gouketsu and he doesn't even help scale the other characters. So, 6 C Gouketsu from my side.

 

[Damage3245]

Gyoro Gyoro stating that the Hero Association may have a weapon above the S-Class could only mean she was referring to whoever killed Gouketsu as EC's death was attributed to King who's from the S-Class. Therefore killing Gouketsu is superior to one shotting EC to such a degree that Gyoro Gyoro refuses to attribute Gouketsu's death to King and instead speculates about someone above the S-Class.

King's not the only strong S-Class you know. It could have been Blast, or Metal Knight, or Tatsumaki. Gyoro-Gyoro doesn't know for sure because she didn't witness the moment of his death.

The fact that you acknowledge that she uses the word "may" means that it isn't the only possibility and therefore not a certainty.

 

[Tsotso]

King's not the only strong S-Class you know. It could have been Blast, or Metal Knight, or Tatsumaki. Gyoro-Gyoro doesn't know for sure because she didn't witness the moment of his death.

She says there might be someone above the S-Class so obviously she's not talking about any of the S-Class heroes. Who she's talking about isn't the point anyways. The point is that she considers killing Gouketsu a feat above the S-Class and King's alleged feat of one shotting Elder Centipede.

The fact that you acknowledge that she uses the word "may" means that it isn't the only possibility and therefore not a certainty.

The word "might" that she used doesn't refer to there being many possibilities about how much more impressive killing Gouketsu is compared to one shotting Elder Centipede. The word "might" refers to there being many possibilities about the identity of who killed Gouketsu, not to whether the feat itself is above the S-Class and therefore above King's alleged feat of one shotting EC. This is because Gyoro Gyoro knows how powerful those two are, can quantify the feats performed to kill them and can compare the feat of killing Gouketsu to her depiction of King's strength.

 

[Kachon123]

I agree with Tsotso

 

[ImposingTiger]

Secondly, sensing the power of an attack and being able to monitor your own power levels (assuming Genos is even capable of monitoring the full power of his 10 seconds mode) are two completely incomparable things. It's like claiming the sensors of a reactor should be capable of determining the power of a nuclear explosion based on the seismic activity it creates.

Just asking, not arguing. Why was Genos able to know how strong his own blasts are then? (enough to pulverize a giant meteor).

 

[Tsotso]

If the "Gouketsu scaling above Homeless Emperor" reasoning is accepted:

Here's how Gouketsu scales above Homeless Emperor (I think).

First lets's get one thing straight. Gyoro Gyoro/Psykos has the ability to measure the power levels of monsters. This is an indisputable fact that's not contradicted by anything.
She was able to measure that Rhino Wrestler had gotten stronger and reached Demon level.
She also measured three other monsters as Demon level with one of them confirming that she has the ability to measure power levels.
It's also stated that the Monster Association cares about raw power above all else. This implies that Gyoro Gyoro (who measures how strong the monsters are) bases her statements concerning the monsters mostly on how powerful she knows they are.
Gyoro Gyoro does admit that she can't measure the power of being on the level of Orochi. However, he is 5-C+ so anyone weaker than that (which is everyone) among the cadres can be assumed to be accurately measurable by her.

With that in mind, here is the actual scaling. I'm just gonna get straight to the point - Psykos thought Gouketsu was above everyone in the S-Class back when she thought Tatsumaki was at the level of Elder Centipede. Here's why:

• She was shocked that someone could defeat Gouketsu and couldn't think of who could have done this despite King being a possible suspect as his whereabouts during the Monster Association's attack on the cities was completely unknown to her at the time. This scales Gouketsu above Psykos' depiction of King's strength at the time which is at least on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede.
• Gouketsu's death lead Psykos to assume the Hero Association had a secret weapon that she claims is above the S-Class. She claimed this after learning of Elder Centipede's death which her and the others from the Monster Association attributed to King, even thinking that he did it with one attack. Yet Psykos still didn't think King could have been responsible for killing Gouketsu even when she didn't know his whereabouts at the time of Gouketsu's death and still attributed it to the "secret weapon above the S-Class" later. This means that to her (who has measured the power levels of Gouketsu and Elder Centipede due to her making statements about who can fight them) someone with the power to one shot Elder Centipede isn't strong enough to defeat Gouketsu. This is key to the next bit of scaling.
• Gyoro Gyoro thought that she could defeat Tatsumaki (who she thought was Elder Centipede level) in her true form. After Tatsumaki defeated the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and made Psykos think she's actually above the Gyoro Gyoro puppet and therefore above EC level, she thought that Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat her.

Here's thing, however. For reasons already stated, Psykos thought that the power to one shot an Elder Centipede level monster was not enough to beat Gouketsu. Yet here she thinks Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat someone who can overpower an EC level combatant.

So basically (From the perspective of Psykos, who knows how strong the MA cadres are):
Gouketsu > Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Tatsumaki (In Psykos' eyes when her Gyoro Gyoro puppet got overpowered) = Someone that can one shot an EC level monster
Homeless Emperor <~ Someone that can one shot an EC level monster (As Psykos thought he would need help against Tatsumaki at that point in time)
Therefore: Gouketsu > Homeless Emperor

I may have missed something like a statement that debunks this whole scaling shtick so if anyone finds such a thing please say so because I don't want to accidentally be spreading misinformation.

then I suppose Gouketsu's attack potency on his profile would look somewhat like this:

Attack Potency: At least Whatever tier Homeless Emperor ends up after the revision (Genos, who has witnessed an all-out battle between Superalloy Darkshine and Carnage Kabuto in the VGS, believed that Gouketsu was more powerful than the latter. Gouketsu's death lead Gyoro Gyoro to think an individual above the S-Class is responsible, even after she heard about Elder Centipede being one shot by Saitama and thought King was responsible. This should make him superior to Homeless Emperor, who Gyoro Gyoro thought would need the help of Black Sperm to defeat Tatsumaki, who at that point had shown to Gyoro Gyoro that she could overpower her meat puppet which is at best comparable to Saitama's feat of one shotting Elder Centipede as Gyoro Gyoro initially thought her meat puppet could fight Tatsumaki who she thought to be on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If the "Gouketsu scaling above Homeless Emperor" reasoning is accepted:

then I suppose Gouketsu's attack potency on his profile would look somewhat like this:

Attack Potency: At least Whatever tier Homeless Emperor ends up after the revision (Genos, who has witnessed an all-out battle between Superalloy Darkshine and Carnage Kabuto in the VGS, believed that Gouketsu was more powerful than the latter. Gouketsu's death lead Gyoro Gyoro to think an individual above the S-Class is responsible, even after she heard about Elder Centipede being one shot by Saitama and thought King was responsible. This should make him superior to Homeless Emperor, who Gyoro Gyoro thought would need the help of Black Sperm to defeat Tatsumaki, who at that point had shown to Gyoro Gyoro that she could overpower her meat puppet which is similar to Saitama's feat of one shotting Elder Centipede as Gyoro Gyoro initially thought her meat puppet could fight Tatsumaki who she thought to be on the level of Pre-Molt Elder Centipede)

The Elder Centipede that got one shotted was a Post Molt one. Can overpowering Gyoro Gyoro really be compared to one shotting a Post Molt Elder Centipede?

 

[Tsotso]

The Elder Centipede that got one shotted was a Post Molt one. Can overpowering Gyoro Gyoro really be compared to one shotting a Post Molt Elder Centipede?

We don't know if Gyoro Gyoro knew Elder Centipede molted after taking the combined attack from Bang and Bomb. All we know is that the MA members thought King one shot Elder Centipede.

 

[LordTracer]

Can overpowering Gyoro Gyoro really be compared to one shotting a Post Molt Elder Centipede?

No, it can’t.

 

[Tsotso]

I know that Tatsumaki overpowering Gyoro Gyoro with her psychic powers may not be on the level of power Saitama's feat against EC is. However, I assumed it was just for the sake of argument as if it isn't it just places Gouketsu even higher than Homeless Emperor which doesn't change the upgrade. I will change it from "is similar" to "is at best comparable".

 

[ImposingTiger]

Here's thing, however. For reasons already stated, Psykos thought that the power to one shot an Elder Centipede level monster was not enough to beat Gouketsu. Yet here she thinks Homeless Emperor would need help from Black Sperm to defeat someone who can overpower an EC level combatant.

It was all good till this point. Tatsumaki's advantage over Gyoro Gyoro was unquantibiably above Pre-Molt EC. You can't just assume she was slightly above when it was this stomp. If anything, it's a supporting feat for HE and BS if they can beat a character who is absurdly above the one shot level of EC. That being said, Psykos probably couldn't measure their pl. HE's energy balls vary greatly and BS fusion are likely unknown to her.

 

[ByAsura]

The problem is that this is the power to decapitate Gouketsu and disintegrate Elder Centipede's entire body with one-shot. Not fight them, just slaughter the two.

Of course she'd think someone who caps out at a level not too far above Fubuki wouldn't be able to kill him easily.

But, I definitely think you could use this same reasoning to place Elder Centipede below Gouketsu.

Also, Tatsumaki far exceeded her entire expectations when she won so easily, so you can't scale them at that point. Everything she previously said about Tatsumaki scaling is pretty much out the window.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No, it can’t.

Okay.

 

[Tsotso]

It was all good till this point. Tatsumaki's advantage over Gyoro Gyoro was unquantibiably above Pre-Molt EC.

We are talking about Psykos' interpretation as the scaling comes from her statements. When Gyoro Gyoro said she could beat Tatsumaki she thought she was at the level of Pre-Molt EC. So Gyoro Gyoro is unquantifiably stronger than Pre-Molt EC (therefore placing her on the EC one shot level would be nothing more than headcanon) as she knew how powerful EC was and thought Tatsumaki was at that level. After Gyoro Gyoro was overpowered she realized Tatsumaki was stronger than the EC tier she thought she was at previously which places her at best on the level of King (allegedly) who one shot EC when it comes to Psykos' interpretation. This is because Tatsumaki overpowered the Gyoro Gyoro puppet but didn't annihilate it in the same way Psykos thought King annihilated EC.

You can't just assume she was slightly above when it was this stomp. If anything, it's a supporting feat for HE and BS if they can beat a character who is absurdly above the one shot level of EC.

Yes, Tatsumaki stomped Gyoro Gyoro with multiple psychic attacks but King literally annihilated EC with one attack in the eyes of the MA members. So why would Tatsumaki's stomp against Gyoro Gyoro be "absurdly above the one shot level of EC"?

That being said, Psykos probably couldn't measure their pl. HE's energy balls vary greatly and BS fusion are likely unknown to her.

Well that's just never stated. I mean you could extrapolate that she doesn't know about BS' fusions as he's never done them before he, well, did them. But why wouldn't she be able to measure Homeless Emperor just because his power can very. Gouketsu's punches vary in power as well because the punch he threw to scare Bakuzan wasn't on the level of the punch that split the clouds. Yet Gyoro Gyoro could still measure his power as evident by her stating he might have trouble if many S-Class heroes ganged up on him (though we don't know what combination of S-Class heroes she had in mind).

 

[Tsotso]

The problem is that this is the power to decapitate Gouketsu and disintegrate Elder Centipede's entire body with one-shot. Not fight them, just slaughter the two.

Of course she'd think someone who caps out at a level not too far above Fubuki wouldn't be able to kill him easily.

I don't exactly get what you're getting at here as there's nothing here that debunks anything in my scaling. Before their fight, Tatsumaki was considered by Gyoro Gyoro to be on the level of Elder Centipede and King was considered to be able to one shot it after EC's defeat yet Gyoro Gyoro still thought there is someone above the S-Class because she didn't think Tatsumaki and King (who she thought one shot EC) were capable of killing Gouketsu.
Therefore killing Gouketsu > annihilating EC with one attack

 

[ByAsura]

Did you purposely cut this out, or did you miss an edit? I don't even remember if I edited this in.

But, I definitely think you could use this same reasoning to place Elder Centipede below Gouketsu.

Anyway, my point was that he himself was not above S-Classes, just decapitating him, and that Psykos' previous comments on the limits of S-Class and Tatsumaki were invalidated by the time she talked about HE/BS winning.

 

[Tsotso]

Did you purposely cut this out, or did you miss an edit? I don't even remember if I edited this in.
Anyway, my point was that he himself was not above S-Classes, just decapitating him.

It seems you edited these in:

But, I definitely think you could use this same reasoning to place Elder Centipede below Gouketsu.

Also, Tatsumaki far exceeded her entire expectations when she won so easily, so you can't scale them at that point. Everything she previously said about Tatsumaki scaling is pretty much out the window.

Yes there's no reason why Gouketsu isn't above Pre-Molt EC considering everything that implies it.
As for the Tatsumaki scaling, I stop scaling her off of statements when it comes to Psykos' interpretation of her after Gyoro Gyoro is defeated. I'm comparing Tatsumaki overpowering Gyoro Gyoro to Saitama (or King in the MA's eyes) completely annihilating EC with one punch. Basically the manner in which Gyoro Gyoro is defeated is similar but not quite as decisive as Saitama's feat against EC. Therefore scaling Tatsumaki above that feat (when it comes to what Psykos is thinking) would be a headcanon-ish stretch.

 

[ByAsura]

It's also headcanon to think it's still applicable. The best thing to do is leave it out.

 

[Tsotso]

It's also headcanon to think it's still applicable. The best thing to do is leave it out.

Great, you admit that what you've said is headcanon.
Now can you explain why Tatsumaki's feat against Gyoro Gyoro being at best comparable to Saitama one shotting EC is heacanon? The upgrade works if it isn't comparable and only doesn't work if it is superior. So can you prove it's superior?

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, Gyroro Gyroro believes herself to be stronger than Tatsumaki, whom she knows as the most powerful S-Class. So being obliterated easily takes far more power than an S-Class. But we don't know how she sees herself in comparison to someone like Gouketsu or Elder Centipede, just that she's at least above Elder Centipede.

Secondly, I don't admit that it's head canon. I'm just using your logic there. What's actually head canon is to assume anything at all here when we have nothing to conclude such a thing.

 

[Tsotso]

Firstly, Gyroro Gyroro believes herself to be stronger than Tatsumaki, whom she knows as the most powerful S-Class. So being obliterated easily takes far more power than an S-Class. But we don't know how she sees herself in comparison to someone like Gouketsu or Elder Centipede, just that she's at least above Elder Centipede.

Unquantifiably above EC. Therefore placing her on a whole other level (the one shot EC level she thought King was) would be a stretch.
Also there's nothing confirming that Gyoro Gyoro thought Tatsumaki was the strongest S-Class hero after she learned that King had (allegedly) one shot Elder Centipede.

Secondly, I don't admit that it's head canon. I'm just using your logic there. What's actually head canon is to assume anything at all here when we have nothing to conclude such a thing.

I don't get what you mean. How are you using my logic? Regardless, I don't see any actual arguments being made here other than "you use headcanon because I said so and all of this is inapplicable for some reason".
Me saying that Tatsumaki overpowering Gyoro Gyoro is only at best comparable to King (allegedly) one shotting EC in Psykos' mind is that one involved multiple psychic attacks and didn't completely annihilate the opponent while the other completely annihilated the opponent with one hit.

 

[ByAsura]

No it wouldn't. It's a stretch to randomly scale people with unknown power levels.

Tatsumaki is the backup final weapon of the association, King is only known as the strongest in terms of physical strength. Tatsumaki is regarded as the most powerful.

I'm playing along with you that the other assumption is also head canon.

I don't see any arguments here. You're literally just saying 'uh, well it's a stretch to assume obliterating her isn't on the same level as one-shotting Elder Centipede.' Based on what? Head canon, duct tape and horses**t, that's what. We have no idea if they're comparable feats, and we shouldn't assume such a thing because on what you personally believe without any proof or confirmation (making it head canon). All we do know is that Psykos' puppet is stronger than Elder Centipede to an unknown extent.

 

[Therefir]

This thread got out of hand, let's get back at it.

Gouketsu "possibly" scaling to the 6-C feat is probably fine, as even though Saitama wasn't able to completely stop the meteor, the resulting fragments weren't able to cause any significant damage, so the majority of the force was actually cancelled by his punch.

Genos was able to deduce this somehow, and he has recently mentioned how his current form is able to stop that same meteor, so I think it's safe to assume he knows with detail the force that this thing carried.

However, some people are arguing that scaling Post-Molt Elder Centipede above Gouketsu is extremely shaky and even contradictory, we should probably focus on that and decide if only Gouketsu scales from this feat.

 

[Damage3245]

If any upgrade has to happen, then only Gouketsu should be scaling to it.

I'd much rather go with a "possibly higher" then trying to assign a full 6-C value to Gouketsu though. It's a lot safer of a rating.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

If any upgrade has to happen, then only Gouketsu should be scaling to it.

So Gouketsu one shot Platinum Sperm?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes

 

[Therefir]

So Gouketsu one shot Platinum Sperm?

He was hyped to be at Saitama's level, so yes I think he should.

 

[ByAsura]

So Gouketsu one shot Platinum Sperm?

He can possibly one-shot Platinum Sperm.

 

[LordTracer]

Can’t wait to have people whining about Gouketsu being too stronk again

 

[CheatHydra]

Goddamn Gouketsu was really underestimating when he called himself a Dragon level threat. Poor guy, must have low self esteem.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Didn't gouketsu say that there were monsters comparable to him in the association?

 

[ByAsura]

I think he said there were several monsters stronger than Bakuzan.

 

[LordTracer]

I think there’s a databook or OVA statement from Gouketsu that there’s other monsters comparable to him… but he doesn’t say who those monsters are, so it’s kinda vague and worthless.