Gouketsu Upgrade?

[ByAsura]

It was from an anime guide book.

 

[Magmag]

the garou rock feat needs evaluation, the feat was recalced with a colossal variety of methods and thus had very different results. It ranges from baseline 7-A to low 5-B depending on the method and it needs serious input
(the reason behind it seems that, depending on the speed and weight, which vary significantly, the KE and stuff changes drastically)

can u send the link, also i feel like rel+ be used as a safe speed due to flashy being that fast and clearly trying much harder in his 3 way fight.

 

[ImposingTiger]

When Gyoro Gyoro said she could beat Tatsumaki she thought she was at the level of Pre-Molt EC.

Actually she said Tatsumaki was one of the few who stand a chance against EC. That said, let's assume they were indeed equals for the sake of the debate.

After Gyoro Gyoro was overpowered she realized Tatsumaki was stronger than the EC tier she thought she was at previously which places her at best on the level of King (allegedly) who one shot EC when it comes to Psykos' interpretation. This is because Tatsumaki overpowered the Gyoro Gyoro puppet but didn't annihilate it in the same way Psykos thought King annihilated EC.

This is where the problem comes from. Tatsumaki was clearly just playing with her food. Besides, she could have one shoted Gyoro Gyoro but decided not to. The amount of psychic power she was exterting on her limbs was enough to make them disappear. Had she attacked to the body or to the head, it would have been game over. So following what I said, Tatsumaki and King can not be compared at all, and that's where your whole scaling chain falls apart.

Well that's just never stated. I mean you could extrapolate that she doesn't know about BS' fusions as he's never done them before he, well, did them. But why wouldn't she be able to measure Homeless Emperor just because his power can very. Gouketsu's punches vary in power as well because the punch he threw to scare Bakuzan wasn't on the level of the punch that split the clouds. Yet Gyoro Gyoro could still measure his power as evident by her stating he might have trouble if many S-Class heroes ganged up on him (though we don't know what combination of S-Class heroes she had in mind).

She can not accurately measure Homeless Emperor because he gathers his energy from the environment. This comes from Murata's statement that Vaccine Man's and HE's energy attacks are the same power. In VM's databook, it is stated that it consists in bio-energy that isn't produced by one's inner power, but rather created from the Earth itself. Taking this fact into account, it is literally impossible for Psykos to know how strong HE is, besides than measuring the power of the small energy balls he always carries with him, which are nothing compared to his big attacks.


Even with that, there is a way to scale Gouketsu above HE. BS stated it would be difficult for him to beat King, who could one shot Pre Molt Elder Centipede. That basically means Golden Sperm (who was among them at that moment), can not one shot Pre Molt EC. Thanks to the facts you brought up, we can argue Gouketsu can one shot EC, putting him above Golden Sperm. Atomic Samurai cut the energy ball from Homeless Emperor but couldn't cut through GS's skin initially. This puts GS above HE's highest shown power (assuming both balls were comparable to one another). And you know what that leads to, right?


Gouketsu> Golden Sperm > Homeless Emperor > Pre Molt EC
Because HE, although working with BS (they still need to have the AP to damage her) is stated to be able to defeat Tatsumaki, who scales massively above Multi Eyed Gyoro Gyoro, who scales above Base Gyoro Gyoro, who scales above Pre Molt Elder Centipede. And yes, I have reasons to believe even Base GG is stronger than EC, but that's irrelevent and I will extend myself on this topic only if you ask me.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Shouldn't guys like Post Molt EC also be getting possibly 6-C due to possibly scaling above Gouketsu?

 

[Damage3245]

Shouldn't guys like Post Molt EC also be getting possibly 6-C due to possibly scaling above Gouketsu?

I don't see why.

 

[Therefir]

Shouldn't guys like Post Molt EC also be getting possibly 6-C due to possibly scaling above Gouketsu?

There may be statements that put Gouketsu above Post Molt EC.

 

[ImposingTiger]

I don't see why.

Because it possibly scales above Gouketsu? (Genos being a realiable source, like we agreed on this thread).

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

There may be statements that put Gouketsu above Post Molt EC.

What exactly?

 

[ImposingTiger]

There may be statements that put Gouketsu above Post Molt EC.

Which ones

 

[Therefir]

Well, more like implications thanks to some of Gyoro's statements.

Regardless, I see no reason for EC to scale above Gouketsu.

 

[ByAsura]

That probably referred to Pre-Molt.

 

[LordTracer]

How exactly would Gyoro Gyoro know about Post-Molt EC?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

How exactly would Gyoro Gyoro know about Post-Molt EC?

She doesn't at all

Genos implies that Post Molt EC is the strongest dude she's ever faced

 

[DaReaperMan]

She doesn't at all

Genos implies that Post Molt EC is the strongest dude she's ever faced

I didn't know Genos was a chick

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I didn't know Genos was a chick

He was in that one Murata artwork

 

[LordTracer]

I didn't know Genos was a chick

Well…

 

[Damage3245]

Genos implies that Post Molt EC is the strongest dude she's ever faced

He doesn't.

Not directly.

 

[Therefir]

Are there raw scans of what Genos exactly said about Post Molt EC?

 

[ByAsura]

I'll see if I can get them.

 

[ByAsura]

Sorry for the delay. My internet cut out.

Here's the scan.

The text is あんな奴が まだ他に何匹も 残っているのか?

I can't get an exact translation, but it's largely similar. I think he's actually wondering how many more monsters like EC are rather than if there are similar monsters in general.

Ask someone who can actually interpret Japanese in any way.

Edit: I can't link it since this is piracy, but the site is in the image. Just type in the Japanese name (ワンパンマン) to find OPM.

 

[Therefir]

As I thought, Genos just wondered if there were still many of such monsters left, monsters like EC, he never compared Post Molt EC to past monsters like Gouketsu.

A translation that I recently read supports this.

 

[ByAsura]

Unless you're using your own translation skills here, don't take my word for it. Find a translator.

I'd find one myself, but I'm doing calculations, CRTs and IRL stuff.

 

[Therefir]

Unless you're using your own translation skills here, don't take my word for it. Find a translator.

I'd do it myself, but I'm doing calculations, CRTs and IRL stuff.

I translated it myself, but I will ask a friend who knows Japanese to translate it for us to be sure.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, good.

 

[Tsotso]

No it wouldn't. It's a stretch to randomly scale people with unknown power levels.

The power levels aren't unknown. We know Gyoro Gyoro is unquantifiably supeprior to Pre-Molt EC but extrapolating by how much is impossible so we can only definitively place her only slightly above that level (which she thought Tatsumaki was at).

Tatsumaki is the backup final weapon of the association, King is only known as the strongest in terms of physical strength. Tatsumaki is regarded as the most powerful.

That is what they are generally known for but you can't prove that's what Psykos thought after King (allegedly) one shot Elder Centipede who Psykos thought was the level Tatsumaki was at. King performing a feat doesn't automatically upsacle Psykos' expectations of Tatsumaki as well.

I'm playing along with you that the other assumption is also head canon.

What are you calling an assumption? Without quoting which part of my post you're referring to it's kinda hard to get what you're trying to say.

I don't see any arguments here. You're literally just saying 'uh, well it's a stretch to assume obliterating her isn't on the same level as one-shotting Elder Centipede.' Based on what? Head canon, duct tape and horses**t, that's what.

No, it's based on the manner in which the feats were performed. Tatsumaki didn't annihilate the Gyoro Gyoro puppet in the same way the MA thought King annihilated EC with one attack.

We have no idea if they're comparable feats, and we shouldn't assume such a thing because on what you personally believe without any proof or confirmation (making it head canon).

It's not based on what I personally think but on what we see happen in the two fights.

All we do know is that Psykos' puppet is stronger than Elder Centipede to an unknown extent.

That's why we don't assume it's on a higher level than EC, especially not on the level of King who annihilated EC with one attack (in the MA's eyes).

 

[ByAsura]

The power levels aren't unknown. We know Gyoro Gyoro is unquantifiably supeprior to Pre-Molt EC but extrapolating by how much is impossible so we can only definitively place her only slightly above that level (which she thought Tatsumaki was at).

'Power levels aren't unknown' isn't even the point, it's that their difference in power level is unknown, and 'we can only assume a slight difference' isn't based on extrapolation.

That is what they are generally known for but you can't prove that's what Psykos thought after King (allegedly) one shot Elder Centipede who Psykos thought was the level Tatsumaki was at. King performing a feat doesn't automatically upsacle Psykos' expectations of Tatsumaki as well.

You can't prove it either. You're making the claim that Homeless Emperor's power is below Gouketsu with this reasoning, so you're actually the one who needs to prove it. It's called burden of proof.

What are you calling an assumption? Without quoting which part of my post you're referring to it's kinda hard to get what you're trying to say.

Literally your entire logic, my man.

No, it's based on the manner in which the feats were performed. Tatsumaki didn't annihilate the Gyoro Gyoro puppet in the same way the MA thought King annihilated EC with one attack.

And it's based on scaling the puppet as just slightly above Elder Centipede to begin with.

Edit: Speaking of this, I some slight rescaling to do because Gyoro Gyoro planned to kill Tatsumaki in her cyclops form. When Tatsumaki easily ripped through her, she used the Multi-Eyed Form to try and win.

It's not based on what I personally think but on what we see happen in the two fights.

It's entirely based on what you think. You don't have any evidence, so you're just using people of unknown levels (relative to each other) as an excuse to scale Gouketsu to Homeless Emperor when we don't actually have any reason to.

That's why we don't assume it's on a higher level than EC, especially not on the level of King who annihilated EC with one attack (in the MA's eyes).

That's why you assume, the wiki as a whole isn't even making any assumptions here.

 

[Tsotso]

Actually she said Tatsumaki was one of the few who stand a chance against EC. That said, let's assume they were indeed equals for the sake of the debate.

This is where the problem comes from. Tatsumaki was clearly just playing with her food. Besides, she could have one shoted Gyoro Gyoro but decided not to. The amount of psychic power she was exterting on her limbs was enough to make them disappear. Had she attacked to the body or to the head, it would have been game over. So following what I said, Tatsumaki and King can not be compared at all, and that's where your whole scaling chain falls apart.

She can not accurately measure Homeless Emperor because he gathers his energy from the environment. This comes from Murata's statement that Vaccine Man's and HE's energy attacks are the same power. In VM's databook, it is stated that it consists in bio-energy that isn't produced by one's inner power, but rather created from the Earth itself. Taking this fact into account, it is literally impossible for Psykos to know how strong HE is, besides than measuring the power of the small energy balls he always carries with him, which are nothing compared to his big attacks.

The scaling method you presented after this makes writing counterarguments about this unnecessary.

Even with that, there is a way to scale Gouketsu above HE. BS stated it would be difficult for him to beat King, who could one shot Pre Molt Elder Centipede. That basically means Golden Sperm (who was among them at that moment), can not one shot Pre Molt EC. Thanks to the facts you brought up, we can argue Gouketsu can one shot EC, putting him above Golden Sperm. Atomic Samurai cut the energy ball from Homeless Emperor but couldn't cut through GS's skin initially. This puts GS above HE's highest shown power (assuming both balls were comparable to one another). And you know what that leads to, right?


Gouketsu> Golden Sperm > Homeless Emperor > Pre Molt EC
Because HE, although working with BS (they still need to have the AP to damage her) is stated to be able to defeat Tatsumaki, who scales massively above Multi Eyed Gyoro Gyoro, who scales above Base Gyoro Gyoro, who scales above Pre Molt Elder Centipede. And yes, I have reasons to believe even Base GG is stronger than EC, but that's irrelevent and I will extend myself on this topic only if you ask me.

I went to reread the Gyoro Gyoro vs Tatsumaki fight and it seems like GG expected to be able to kill Tatsumaki in her base form so I'm dropping that argument.
Using the scaling method you've pointed out I suppose the new Gouketsu AP justification would be like this:

Attack Potency: At least Whatever tier Homeless Emperor ends up after the revision (Genos, who has witnessed an all-out battle between Superalloy Darkshine and Carnage Kabuto in the VGS, believed that Gouketsu was more powerful than the latter. Gouketsu's death lead Gyoro Gyoro to think an individual above the S-Class is responsible, even after she heard about Elder Centipede being one shot by Saitama and thought King was responsible. This should make him superior to Homeless Emperor whose strongest attack was cut by Atomic Samurai with the Sun Blade who struggled to as easily cut Golden Sperm, who was hesitant to fight King whose best known feat was one shotting Elder Centipede.

 

[Tsotso]

'Power levels aren't unknown' isn't even the point, it's that their difference in power level is unknown, and 'we can only assume a slight difference' isn't based on extrapolation.

You can't prove it either. You're making the claim that Homeless Emperor's power is below Gouketsu with this reasoning, so you're actually the one who needs to prove it. It's called burden of proof.

Literally your entire logic, my man.

And it's based on scaling the puppet as just slightly above Elder Centipede to begin with.

Edit: Speaking of this, I some slight rescaling to do because Gyoro Gyoro planned to kill Tatsumaki in her cyclops form. When Tatsumaki easily ripped through her, she used the Multi-Eyed Form to try and win.

It's entirely based on what you think. You don't have any evidence, so you're just using people of unknown levels (relative to each other) as an excuse to scale Gouketsu to Homeless Emperor when we don't actually have any reason to.

That's why you assume, the wiki as a whole isn't even making any assumptions here.

I'm dropping the Tatsumaki and Gyoro Gyoro puppet comparison argument.
There's a way of scaling Gouketsu above Homeless Emperor without it.

 

[ByAsura]

It took 37 blows to actually overpower that attack.

 

[Tsotso]

It took 37 blows to actually overpower that attack.

That was more of an area of effect thing. Every single slash casually and cleanly cut through the energy orb but there needed to be more to cut the whole area of the orb.

 

[ByAsura]

Either way, that feat only scales to 1/37th. Also, he didn't cut the whole area of the orb, and it exploded, so that justification doesn't make sense.

Edit: I meant 35.

Plus, we're relying on this to mean that Gouketsu himself is superior to the attack that one-shot EC. He does require a superior level of attack to be decapitated, but that's decapitation. And it relies on GS treating the feat as if it's some sort of minimum for King, or having any idea of the power needed to one-shot EC.

 

[Tsotso]

Either way, that feat only scales to 1/37th. Also, he didn't cut the whole area of the orb, and it exploded, so that justification doesn't make sense.

Edit: I meant 35.

That doesn't make sense. If Sun Blade Atomic was 35 times weaker than the orb he wouldn't have been able to slash through it with the first attack so cleanly that it even suprised Homeless Emperor.
Last time I checked, if a character slices through something with one attack the character's AP scales to that something. The character doing more slashes to cause even more damage to that something's area doesn't mean the amount of slashes determines what portion of that something the character's AP scales to.

 

[ByAsura]

It's an energy orb with unknown durability and a set amount of energy per volume, so cutting into it would logically scale to the volume it destroyed. It's like arguing an attack capable of destroying someone outright is comparable to an attack capable of slicing through 1 section of someone.

We typically scale them because their durability is based on tanking or surviving attacks. We don't use surface area because it's calc-stacking, but feats of fragmenting something with 10 hits is always divided by 10.

Also did you see this part.

Plus, we're relying on this to mean that Gouketsu himself is superior to the attack that one-shot EC. He does require a superior level of attack to be decapitated, but that's decapitation. And it relies on GS treating the feat as if it's some sort of minimum for King, or having any idea of the power needed to one-shot EC.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

who struggled to as easily cut Golden Sperm, who was hesitant to fight King whose best known feat was one shotting Elder Centipede.

How is this relevant to Gouketsu?

 

[LordTracer]

to think an individual above the S-Class is responsible

I don’t see how this relates to Gouketsu at all. All she says is; “The more aces we have, the better. After all, Hero Association might have their own hidden cards above S-Class.”

Also she says that the Hero Association MIGHT have things beyond the S-Class, so it’s not even a solid statement, and she’s not saying it in reference to Gouketsu’s defeat, she’s saying it to Garou.

 

[ByAsura]

The logic is that because killing Gouketsu is superior in scale to destroying Elder Centipede (Psykos said it takes more power than any S-Class to kill Gouketsu in such a manner after EC's destruction), which was attributed to King, GS is inferior to Gouketsu because he was hesitant to fight King.

It relies on a lot of assumptions, namely King scaling below Gouketsu himself, and EC's entire destruction being comparable to Gouketsu.

Edit: As Tracer pointed out, it's not even true.

 

[Kachon123]

Sorry, I kinda got lost in this thread. Are we still talking about Gouketsu scaling to the Meteor? Or Gouketsu over HE? Someone please explain.

 

[ByAsura]

Tsotso is trying to find reasons to scale Gouketsu above HE.

Honestly, are we just going to add this or not? Therefir pointed out in the raws that Post-Molt EC doesn't actually scale to Gouketsu, so it'll just affect Gouketsu by this point, and even Damage said possibly higher is fine.

 

[Tsotso]

It's an energy orb with unknown durability and a set amount of energy per volume, so cutting into it would logically scale to the volume it destroyed. It's like arguing an attack capable of destroying someone outright is comparable to an attack capable of slicing through 1 section of someone. We typically scale them because their durability is based on tanking or surviving attacks. We don't use surface area because it's calc-stacking, but feats of fragmenting something with 10 hits is always divided by 10.

What you're trying to postulate does indeed seem a bit like calc stacking.

• Character A has a certain attack potency through a calculation. They made a 1mm dent in character B's shield composed of a fictional material. But character C destroyed the whole 30mm thick shield, so character C is thirty times as strong as character A.
• Atomic Samurai slashed HE's orb 35 times to destroy the orb's entire area, so HE's orb is 35 times stronger than Atomic Samurai's attack potency.

These seem similar.
But Atomic could cut through the orb with only one attack.

Also did you see this part?
ByAsura said:
Plus, we're relying on this to mean that Gouketsu himself is superior to the attack that one-shot EC. He does require a superior level of attack to be decapitated, but that's decapitation. And it relies on GS treating the feat as if it's some sort of minimum for King, or having any idea of the power needed to one-shot EC.

No, because you keep editing your posts. But anyways, Gouketsu is in fact superior to the attack that one shot EC because such an attack was considered by Gyoro Gyoro as not good enough to kill Gouketsu. If it was she wouldn't have said that it must have been done by someone above the S-Class.
Also you're forgetting that decapitating someone with one attack and completely annihilating someone are on two different levels, yet the former was considered far more impressive than the latter by someone who knows how strong both Gouketsu and EC are.
Golden S doesn't know of any better feats as that's the feat BS pointed out.
He definitely does know the power needed to one shot EC as he is a cadre and Hellfire and Gale who aren't proper cadres are aware of the level Gouketsu and EC are at.

 

[Tsotso]

The logic is that because killing Gouketsu is superior to destroying Elder Centipede, which was attributed to King, GS is inferior to Gouketsu because he was hesitant to fight King.

It relies on a lot of assumptions.

What assumptions??