Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Pikaman]

Okay and what about actual characters from across mediums appearing in each other?

Alain and Ash in the games

Lucas, Brenden and Rei (and possibly Gen 2 characters because of Pokémon Chronicles) showing up in the anime

Are these somehow “just” personality similarities and not the literal characters appearing too?

What are you even doing still on this thread

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

This is a false equivalence as that has to do with citing things about a characters power that the material doesn’t back up and we tend to not accept author statements from social media answers in general because it’s not an official interview, it’s a quick fan response.

Masudas comment is nothing of the sort whatsoever

False, a lot of those statements comes from Man of Action itself, you know the creators of Ben 10, in a groupal blog that they made, but we still disregards those statements because they contradict the material.

 

[Sniper670]

Were in canon is another way of saying that they need to act in the way that the canon one would do, considering that the original question was about the character PERSONALITY.
Mr. Sasaki: We have worked with The Pokémon Company closely on details in the game, and they have of course checked our new details to make sure they fit in the world of Pokémon. One of the major new features of this game—and the content that we want to highlight—is the interaction between various Trainers. Players will be able to enjoy new and exciting interactions between Trainers who may not have interacted before

The world of Pokémon is a Multiverse with countless universes in it that follows mwi where all possible world are being actively realised

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What are you even doing still on this thread

Responding. I wasn’t officially thread banned based on Ants response to the RvT, and I’m leaving this site today anyway.

Anyway, answer the question please.

 

[Sniper670]

False, a lot of those statements comes from Man of Action itself, you know the creators of Ben 10, in a groupal blog that they made, but we still disregards those statements because they contradict the material.

You're comparing a multiverse with mwi that has shown contradictory universes to a universe

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

False, a lot of those statements comes from Man of Action itself, you know the creators of Ben 10, in a groupal blog that they made,

Doesn’t mean those are interview answers like what Masudas are. On top of that, MoA is unfortunately no longer Alive, so his statements wouldn’t have weight towards the series afterwards with Alien Xs later depictions.

but we still disregards those statements because they contradict the material.

Yea. And how does Masudas contradict Pokemons marerial?

 

[Sniper670]

Pokémon Go exists. And it's the biggest contradiction you can find. And it's canon


Why are y'all dodging that?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay and what about actual characters from across mediums appearing in each other?

Alain and Ash in the games

Lucas, Brenden and Rei (and possibly Gen 2 characters because of Pokémon Chronicles) showing up in the anime

Are these somehow “just” personality similarities and not the literal characters appearing too?

Id like an answer to this too please. Explain how characters from the games being in the anime and vice versa are just “personality similarities” and not literally the characters existing between worlds.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

Pokémon Go exists. And it's the biggest contradiction you can find. And it's canon


Why are y'all dodging that?

Then Pokémon GO should be treated as non-canon too.

 

[Pikaman]

Id like an answer to this too please. Explain how characters from the games being in the anime and vice versa are just “personality similarities” and not literally the characters existing between worlds.

Do you have any idea how many times we treat ADAPTATIONS of characters into other medias as not the same? I’m like 85% sure burden of proof is on you here

 

[Aachintya31]

Doesn’t mean those are interview answers like what Masudas are.

This is majorly how writers statements are accepted on this website.

On top of that, MoA is unfortunately no longer Alive, so his statements wouldn’t have weight towards the series afterwards with Alien Xs later depictions.

Both are different continuities.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

Do you have any idea how many times we treat ADAPTATIONS of characters into other medias as not the same? I’m like 85% sure burden of proof is on you here

^This

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Do you have any idea how many times we treat ADAPTATIONS of characters into other medias as not the same? I’m like 85% sure burden of proof is on you here

Actually that’s the other way around. Your claiming the characters aren’t the same is a positive claim, which is where the burden of proof gets applied to.

 

[Sniper670]

Then Pokémon GO should be treated as non-canon too.

Because you say so???

You see the problem with y'all??

 

[Andytrenom]

I can buy the anime manga games etc sharing a multiverse. Thing is that doesn't on its own justify cross scaling

Correct me if I'm wrong but Main Marvel and Ultimate are also different worlds in a multiverse but have different scaling.

 

[Pikaman]

Actually that’s the other way around. Your claiming the characters aren’t the same is a positive claim, which is where the burden of proof gets applied to.

By default, this wiki treats adaptations of characters into other mediums as different characters, the burden of proof is on you to show we should deviate from this default

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

Because you say so???

You see the problem with y'all??

You say it yourself, Pokémon GO is fill with contradictions, and that the company had say that it's canon means nothing, the director of the Ben 10 Reboot has say that the Bens that appear in the last special are the same of the original continuity, even though is full of contradictions and that's why we ignored his statements.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

I can buy the anime manga games etc sharing a multiverse. Thing is that doesn't on its own justify cross scaling

Correct me if I'm wrong but Main Marvel and Ultimate are also different worlds in a multiverse but have different scaling.

Correct, the main 616 Universe and the Ultimate universe have different scaling, but both are in the same Multiverse.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

By default, this wiki treats adaptations of characters into other mediums as different characters, the burden of proof is on you to show we should deviate from this default

That is only when the mediums have nothing to do with each other and have no official confirmation of being linked

Something Pokemons canon has, such as the Game and Anime being parallel worlds.

And the characters not being the same exact ones makes absolutely no sense since:

-Pokémon Journeys makes a flashback to Hisui with Rei doing exactly what he does in Legends Arceus, catching Pokémon to complete the dex. A canonical plot point.

-Alain is the only character with a Charizard that Steven has interacted with in the anime, out of all canon mediums, so for Steven to reference Alain in ORAS, a post game about Mega Rayquaza who they both fight against in the anime, the ocams razor and only way this makes sense is if Alain in the games is exactly the same as Alain in the anime

 

[Sniper670]

You say it yourself, Pokémon GO is fill with contradictions, and that the company had say that it's canon means nothing, the director of the Ben 10 Reboot has say that the Bens that appear in the last special are the same of the original continuity, even though is full of contradictions and that's why we ignored his statements.

You missed the point entirely. Pokémon has shown multiple contradictory universes. One with Megas and the Other where it doesn't exist

It's a mwi multiverse. Pokémon Go is canon and exists alongside the others. Simple as that

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

By default, this wiki treats adaptations of characters into other mediums as different characters, the burden of proof is on you to show we should deviate from this default

The Spectacular Spider-Man show for example was given a canon number as an universe in the Marvel's Multiverse, but we still treated the characters as different from the main ones.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I can buy the anime manga games etc sharing a multiverse. Thing is that doesn't on its own justify cross scaling

Correct me if I'm wrong but Main Marvel and Ultimate are also different worlds in a multiverse but have different scaling.

This is because Main Marvel and Ultimate have different established characters. You can’t scale different characters because then that’s compositing. Which we ban.

Pokemons cross scaling is species scaling, not scaling feats to particular characters. The site also has a rule that specifies species scaling isn’t compositing and is allowed.

So sharing a multiverse would allow species scaling but not compositing.

 

[Pikaman]

The site also has a rule that specifies species scaling isn’t compositing and is allowed

But only on a case by case basis, and atm staff ruling is split ‘em

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But only on a case by case basis, and atm staff ruling is split ‘em

Majority siding with splitting doesn’t mean the case is wrong

Especially if that rule was forgotten about.

 

[Pikaman]

Majority siding with splitting doesn’t mean the case is wrong

Especially if that rule was forgotten about.

You’re free to argue to the contrary of majority opinion of course, but ultimately unless you start changing a pretty large amount of minds this CRT is gonna pass, your opinion is not absolute either, especially when you are in the minority

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You’re free to argue to the contrary of majority opinion of course, but ultimately unless you start changing a pretty large amount of minds this CRT is gonna pass, your opinion is not absolute either, especially when you are in the minority

Regardless that response was to answer Andy’s question on why sharing a multiverse allows for species scaling and not character scaling

As the latter is compositing. The former is not compositing.

 

[Andytrenom]

That should still gets rid of the scaling chains between legendaries across different universes. You can't scale someone else to a feat a different version of the character performs. Not sure where I stand with splitting normal Pokemon profiles

 

[StrymULTRA]

Legendaries are still counted as wild species. The Wobuffet of the Team Rocket is the same as the one appearing in the games as confirmed from its Mystery Gift description.

That should still gets rid of the scaling chains between legendaries across different universes. You can't scale someone else to a feat a different version of the character performs. Not sure where I stand with splitting normal Pokemon profiles

Issue is that the Artworks of movie Mystery Gifts show the legendaries traveling from the cinema screen of the movie to the games, confirming them being actually the same thing.

 

[Sniper670]

That should still gets rid of the scaling chains between legendaries across different universes. You can't scale someone else to a feat a different version of the character performs. Not sure where I stand with splitting normal Pokemon profiles

Thing is, it's the same mons. They didn't suddenly acquire a new power the other couldn't use. The same moveset, ability, stats, lore

 

[Ayewale]

I can buy the anime manga games etc sharing a multiverse. Thing is that doesn't on its own justify cross scaling

Correct me if I'm wrong but Main Marvel and Ultimate are also different worlds in a multiverse but have different scaling.

You are not wrong in the slightest. For the record DC also works this way. Kind of, dc cosmology requires a university thesis to accurately summarize but rest assured different canons are in the same multiverse

 

[Ayewale]

This is because Main Marvel and Ultimate have different established characters. You can’t scale different characters because then that’s compositing. Which we ban.

Pokemons cross scaling is species scaling, not scaling feats to particular characters. The site also has a rule that specifies species scaling isn’t compositing and is allowed.

So sharing a multiverse would allow species scaling but not compositing.

We do not cross scale any species in marvel, either afaik. Not the Skrulls, Kree, Inhumans or Mutants.

 

[Antvasima]

I can buy the anime manga games etc sharing a multiverse. Thing is that doesn't on its own justify cross scaling

Correct me if I'm wrong but Main Marvel and Ultimate are also different worlds in a multiverse but have different scaling.

You are not wrong in the slightest. For the record DC also works this way. Kind of, dc cosmology requires a university thesis to accurately summarize but rest assured different canons are in the same multiverse

I strongly agree with these sentiments.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

We do not cross scale any species in marvel, either afaik. Not the Skrulls, Kree, Inhumans or Mutants.

^ We also don't cross scale the aliens from the Original continuity of Ben 10 to the Reboot ones, even though they're the same species.

 

[Sniper670]

The Problem arises when differences dont exist.

Pikachu of Manga is not doing anything differently from anime, nor is it doing anything from games

The Pokedex is the same across all 3 media, meaning the behavior of the species being studied never changes

 

[Sniper670]

^ We also don't cross scale the aliens from the Original continuity of Ben 10 to the Reboot ones, even though they're the same species.

False Equivalence. The alien species between the original and reboot are very different across those mediums,

For example, Heatblast has totally different powers and even feats and scaling from Heatblast in the Ben 10 reboot

The reboot version even has different forms that are completely non existent in the former medium.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

False Equivalence. The alien species between the original and reboot are very different across those mediums,

For example, Heatblast has totally different powers and even feats and scaling from Heatblast in the Ben 10 reboot

The reboot version even has different forms that are completely non existent in the former medium.

Ehh whatever I don't care, my point is still in favor of OP.

 

[Ayewale]

The Problem arises when differences dont exist

There is unironically been more than fifty different posts trying to explain differences, and we're probably going to approach a hundred. I noted this earlier in the thread but by this point saying that there are no differences pretty much means either (a) you didn't read any previous posts or (b) you won't ACCEPT anything as a difference.

"We don't composite profiles like this."
"But they exist in the same multiverse."
"Even if they do that doesn't justify compositing"
"But they aren't all that different"
unironically several dozens of explanations throughout the thread
"Those differences do not count because they share a multiverse, of course they are different."
"But sharing a multiverse isn't grounds for them being composited so them being different doesn't justify being composite, either."

'Of course multiverses are different' means nothing because virtually every other series with several different mediums (even those connected by a multiverse) isn't composited. If several aspects of Pokemon are vastly different between mediums (and they are), and all the evidence for them being totally composited is pretty weak, well it's pretty easy to conclude that most aspects of the series shouldn't be composited.

"What about background information?" Fine, because the wiki occasionally does this for some verses (i.e. to calc something from a novel, you use visuals from the movie).

"What about Pokedex entries?" You don't need to composite those because they're all the same in every verse already, methinks.

 

[Ayewale]

False Equivalence. The alien species between the original and reboot are very different across those mediums,

For example, Heatblast has totally different powers and even feats and scaling from Heatblast in the Ben 10 reboot

The reboot version even has different forms that are completely non existent in the former medium.

The different forms in the reboot come about as a result of the Omnitrix (most of the time), not because of the aliens themselves. And aside that point, most of the reboot aliens are pretty consistent with their portrayal with the Classic series.

And there are significant differences between mediums. We've talked about them. A lot.

 

[Sniper670]

I'll address the whole multiverse thing here



Marvel and DC keep coming up as examples of species scaling not being done, and it’s been explained why they aren’t. Marvel and DC have members of their species like Skrulls or Inhumans that are distinct characters. Each unique from each other.



That automatically disqualifies them because of the rule on compositing. Distinct characters can’t be composited as one, so those species can’t be scaled.



2 Pikachu you find in the wild are not distinct characters, they are average joes of their species. Nothing sets them apart from each other, and that makes their species scaling a different case.



The argument only works if you argue distinct Pikachu can’t be cross scaled to all Pikachu, and that’s something we already don’t allow. Ash Ketchums Pikachu is a distinct Pikachu and it doesn’t get scaled to the species, it’s separate from them. Marvel and DC and similar cases are the same.

 

[Sniper670]

The different forms in the reboot come about as a result of the Omnitrix (most of the time), not because of the aliens themselves. And aside that point, most of the reboot aliens are pretty consistent with their portrayal with the Classic series.

And there are significant differences between mediums. We've talked about them. A lot..

Relook at the pages I used as an example and you can see that they aren’t. The feats between classic and reboot are also very different, not just the forms and abilities. Heatblast in the classic is at best tier 7. Reboot Heatblast has tier 6 feats and scaling.

Pokémon species across mediums don’t have different feats, unless they’re distinct members who are special variants

And there are significant differences between mediums. We've talked about them. A lot.

Not for the Pokémon, which is the only thing that matters here. The Pokémon species across these medium do not have differences. Human characters? Whatever. We don’t cross scale them anyway. But not the Pokémon themselves.