Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Agnaa]

We axiomatically disagree on how to treat certain pieces of evidence. All we can do at this point is take a vote.

 

[Pikaman]

I’m just gonna slow this down and explain real easy for you.

Either all of the image is canon, or none of it is. There’s is no other feasible explanation and it’s ridiculous to suggest otherwise

We know it cannot be ALL of the image is canon because there are several parts of it that contradict everything we know about Pokémon cosmology

Which leaves only one option, none of the image is canon and it’s a non argument.

Suggesting you can pick and choose canoninity of certain parts of one extremely small piece of media like a promotional artwork is ridiculous and I’m not gonna waste any more time acknowledging it after this

 

[Pikaman]

We axiomatically disagree on how to treat certain pieces of evidence. All we can do at this point is take a vote.

Yeah, let’s look at the vote count why don’t we?

Agree: Ominous_Blund3r, The_Smashor, Andytrenom, Purgy, Armorchompy, JustSomeWeirdo, Gilad_Hyperstar, Maverick_Zero_X, Paul_Frank, Scottycj256, LephyrTheRevanchist, Hasty12345(?), Rikimarox2, Aachintya31, Antvasima, Cropfist, Pikaman, Colonel_Krukov, Reiner, Confluctor, Foxthefox1000, Jibz, Marcusbwfc, Agnaa, Moritzva, GodlyCharmander, TheGreatMaster12, Mariogoods

Neutral/Middle: y3p_owo, Executor_N0, Saikou_the_Lewd_King

Disagree: ProfessorKukui4Life, Arceus0x, Thelastmlg, Purmeenant, XSOULOFCINDERX, Sero, Bobsican, StrymULTRA, Yemma670, GyroNutz (? said his response was preliminary)

so uh yeah, I’d say majority of both members and especially staff favour a split. Case closed. We are getting into circular and/or nonsensical arguments, this debate has run its damn course

 

[Agnaa]

tbf Gyro's name should be bolded, due to being staff.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Okay, so. How are we feeling about this statement?

This can conclude that Anime and Games are parallel worlds in the Multiverse, at the very least. Do you all agree with that?

 

[Pikaman]

tbf Gyro's name should be bolded, due to being staff.

Yeah that’s a bit weird but point still stands

 

[Sniper670]

Okay, so. How are we feeling about this statement?

This can conclude that Anime and Games are parallel worlds in the Multiverse, at the very least. Do you all agree with that?

THANK YOU

 

[Pikaman]

Okay, so. How are we feeling about this statement?

This can conclude that Anime and Games are parallel worlds in the Multiverse, at the very least. Do you all agree with that?

“In select places”

 

[GodlyCharmander]

THANK YOU

Do not act like I'm on your side. I just find the statement very definitive, so we can slowly reach a consensus that addresses all the evidence at play.

 

[Sniper670]

“In select places”

And so what?

 

[Sniper670]

Do not act like I'm on your side. I just find the statement very definitive, so we can slowly reach a consensus that addresses all the evidence at play.

Sure

 

[Ayewale]

Okay, so. How are we feeling about this statement?

This can conclude that Anime and Games are parallel worlds in the Multiverse, at the very least. Do you all agree with that?

The first good proof that they all share a multiverse. Would’ve saved us some time.

Doesn’t suddenly make them share a canon, though. Nor is it evidence to prove it.

 

[Sniper670]

I’m just gonna slow this down and explain real easy for you.

Either all of the image is canon, or none of it is. There’s is no other feasible explanation and it’s ridiculous to suggest otherwise

You’re pretty much ignoring what you want to now for the basis of your own headcanon and interpretation of what evidence is.

“No other feasible explanation”

The games

We know it cannot be ALL of the image is canon because there are several parts of it that contradict everything we know about Pokémon cosmology

Yes, we agree on this. But there’s a very big difference between saying the depiction of the event didn’t happen as how it’s depicted and saying the event didn’t happen at all, when…an alternate source clearly confirms it did.

If you want to argue the way it happened is non canon because of the artworks non canon elements, that’s a different story.

But to argue it didn’t happen at all when there’s a source outside of just plain artwork that confirms the event in general did in fact happen, is extremely flawed.

Which leaves only one option, none of the image is canon and it’s a non argument.

Suggesting you can pick and choose canoninity of certain parts of one extremely small piece of media like a promotional artwork is ridiculous and I’m not gonna waste any more time acknowledging it after this

“Wrong because I said so and that’s that”

Accepting what can be proven is not cherry picking.

 

[Sniper670]

The first good proof that they all share a multiverse. Would’ve saved us some time.

Doesn’t suddenly make them share a canon, though. Nor is it evidence to prove it.

With the TON of supporting evidence that has been given, we can all agree they share a canon

 

[Sniper670]

By the way, Ant explicitly called all of those staff to give their votes after seeing Stryms counter arguments. Only a few of the ones that voted initially did this.

So the old vote count doesn’t hold until they come back like Ant requested them to.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

“In select places"

See, just as much as the dude can't take parts of material that are convenient to him, you also cannot isolate parts of the entire statement. He says "It is basically the same place. Looking at it as a parallel world, or in some selected spots, being a parallel world might be accurate".

This is enough to convince me that a Multiverse is shared.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, we agree on this. But there’s a very big difference between saying the depiction of the event didn’t happen as how it’s depicted and saying the event didn’t happen at all, when…an alternate source clearly confirms it did.

If you want to argue the way it happened is non canon because of the artworks non canon elements, that’s a different story.

But to argue it didn’t happen at all when there’s a source outside of just plain artwork that confirms the event in general did in fact happen, is extremely flawed.

My point is just that the artwork is not evidence (or at least, not evidence that is reliable enough to be used). Not that the artwork disproves all other evidence.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesn’t suddenly make them share a canon, though. Nor is it evidence to prove it.

I do not think that's needed. They all share a common connection, Arceus.
They are all created by the same God, since said God created the multiverse, so the species themselves shouldn't have any differences with the exception of the ones with Individuality by the plot.

What do you think?

 

[Pikaman]

By the way, Ant explicitly called all of those staff to give their votes after seeing Stryms counter arguments. Only a few of the ones that voted initially did this.

So the old vote count doesn’t hold until they come back like Ant requested them to.

I mean sure ask Ant to contact them again if you think that’s necessary, but at 8 pages I think batting away the vote count of so many people just acts as a blockage of progress because the progress doesn’t side with your view

 

[Ayewale]

I do not think that's needed. They all share a common connection, Arceus.
They are all created by the same God, since said God created the multiverse, so the species themselves shouldn't have any differences with the exception of the ones with Individuality by the plot.

What do you think?

Sharing a common point in the multiverse also isn’t justification. Marvel has several beings that exist between several universes if not a multiverse outright, and other verses even have multiversus crewators across canons (Primus/Unicron for example) but that still is not proof enough for a composite.

Also why would being created from the same being = same canon to begin with? This does not prove canoncity. I am also not sure where ‘Arceus created the anime, games and manga’ came from. Whether Arceus is immune to the split comes later.

 

[Sniper670]

See, just as much as the dude can't take parts of material that are convenient to him, you also cannot isolate parts of the entire statement. He says "It is basically the same place. Looking at it as a parallel world, or in some selected spots, being a parallel world might be accurate".

This is enough to convince me that a Multiverse is shared.

This.

 

[Ayewale]

Quoting posts with nothing but ‘this’ is nothing but bloat for an already bloated thread. Quit it

 

[Sniper670]

And who does it hurt

You're disregarding what Masuda said. So yes. His point makes much more sense and I'll stress that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sharing a common point in the multiverse also isn’t justification. Marvel has several beings that exist between several universes if not a multiverse outright, and other verses even have multiversus crewators across canons (Primus/Unicron for example) but that still is not proof enough for a composite.

Also why would being created from the same being = same canon to begin with? This does not prove canoncity. I am also not sure where ‘Arceus created the anime, games and manga’ came from. Whether Arceus is immune to the split comes later.

Are you... strawmanning me? I never tried to prove canonicity, nor am I arguing for composition.

They share a Multiverse, Arceus created literally everything. Obviously the omnipotent Arceus stays the same through the parallel worlds, but that's not relevant.

Addressing the actual proposition. The Pokemon. They are all created by the exact same Arceus. So the species from the Anime should not be any more powerful than the ones in the games. Thus, scaling wild pokemons between the two media should be fair game.
They do not need to share a canon for that to be the case. Their continuities are non factors for this.

 

[Sniper670]

Sharing a common point in the multiverse also isn’t justification. Marvel has several beings that exist between several universes if not a multiverse outright, and other verses even have multiversus crewators across canons (Primus/Unicron for example) but that still is not proof enough for a composite.

Because those beings are each entirely different characters. And it’s banned to composite entirely different characters.

This was said by a lot of us in this thread. We aren’t compositing different characters in Pokémon. We’ve never done that.

Also why would being created from the same being = same canon to begin with? This does not prove canoncity. I am also not sure where ‘Arceus created the anime, games and manga’ came from. Whether Arceus is immune to the split comes later.

Because Arceus creating the cosmology as what it is is a significantly big part of the source materials lore. Using and sticking to that same lore would be evidence of sharing a multiverse, and with the statement of Games and Anime being parallel worlds, that shows the cosmology acknowledges the practice of considering mediums as literal parallel universes in the same shared multiverse

 

[GodlyCharmander]

And who does it hurt

You're disregarding what Masuda said. So yes. His point makes much more sense and I'll stress that

They're not disagreeing with Masuda whatsoever.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because those beings are each entirely different characters. And it’s banned to composite entirely different characters.

This was said by a lot of us in this thread. We aren’t compositing different characters in Pokémon. We’ve never done that.

Because Arceus creating the cosmology as what it is is a significantly big part of the source materials lore. Using and sticking to that same lore would be evidence of sharing a multiverse, and with the statement of Games and Anime being parallel worlds, that shows the cosmology acknowledges the practice of considering mediums as literal parallel universes in the same shared multiverse

Don't reply to my debate for me.

 

[Executor_N0]

The first good proof that they all share a multiverse. Would’ve saved us some time.

Doesn’t suddenly make them share a canon, though. Nor is it evidence to prove it.

I mentioned this statement a lot before and it's one of the main ones in my blogs, how can no one else have noticed that? Also, the context in that answer is directly about Masuda saying "if you want to know about X, you can watch Y movie" and later saying "It's mostly the same world, although calling some select stops parallel worlds might be more accurate", that is literally saying "It's the same world, but some spots can be disregarded as parallel worlds". All that this seems to mean to me is that no one is really reading what I'm saying, because I literally quoted this interview here before giving the context.

As I said before, this is literally the entire idea of sharing the same worldview and there are a lot of statements like that on my blog. The rest really seems to be just people not understanding this concept because they just reduce it to "But X is also a shared multiverse and we don't scale any stuff". I'll make a last reply answering to that and after that I'll be back to my other project, but I want to give a final answer to this.

 

[Pikaman]

Because those beings are each entirely different characters. And it’s banned to composite entirely different characters.

This was said by a lot of us in this thread. We aren’t compositing different characters in Pokémon. We’ve never done that.

Jesus Christ if we start getting into “species profiles” for the 20th time instead of just finishing this damn thread up I will lose what little strand of sanity I have left

 

[Ayewale]

Are you... strawmanning me? I never tried to prove canonicity, nor am I arguing for composition.

They share a Multiverse, Arceus created literally everything. Obviously the omnipotent Arceus stays the same through the parallel worlds, but that's not relevant.

Addressing the actual proposition. The Pokemon. They are all created by the exact same Arceus. So the species from the Anime should not be any more powerful than the ones in the games. Thus, scaling wild pokemons between the two media should be fair game.
They do not need to share a canon for that to be the case. Their continuities are non factors for this.

1. If you are arguing that scaling between all of them is fair, you’re arguing for compositing the canons. So I’m not strawmanning.
2. You also didn’t respond to my questions at all. Deciding whether Arceus exists between all of the mediums is a fairly tricky question. We do not assume this is the case for other multiversal entities do even if “their portrayal is consistent!” we need actual hard proof.
3. Being created by the same Pokémon=/=sharing the same abilities. You didn’t really answer that point either. Why would it?

 

[Ayewale]

I mentioned this statement a lot before and it's one of the main ones in my blogs, how can no one else have noticed that? Also, the context in that answer is directly about Masuda saying "if you want to know about X, you can watch Y movie" and later saying "It's mostly the same world, although calling some select stops parallel worlds might be more accurate", that is literally saying "It's the same world, but some spots can be disregarded as parallel worlds". All that this seems to mean to me is that no one is really reading what I'm saying, because I literally quoted this interview here before giving the context.

As I said before, this is literally the entire idea of sharing the same worldview and there are a lot of statements like that on my blog. The rest really seems to be just people not understanding this concept because they just reduce it to "But X is also a shared multiverse and we don't scale any stuff". I'll make a last reply answering to that and after that I'll be back to my other project, but I want to give a final answer to this.

We don’t reduce anything, you just seem to refuse to acknowledge the fact that Pokemon’s shared worldview is neither unique nor particularly managed in comparison to other verses. I apologise for missing the statement earlier though.

Also, everyone is reading what you’re saying; making a mistake does not equal some sort of intent to ignore you. Otherwise I would just claim that Strym and Yemma just aren’t reading my posts and call it a day (although strym literally isn’t lmao).

 

[Sniper670]

1. If you are arguing that scaling between all of them is fair, you’re arguing for compositing the canons. So I’m not strawmanning.

Others have already brought this up. The site specifically has a rule that allows for the cross scaling of species on species pages. They are not considered composites and are allowed.

This is different from character compositing, and if your going to argue against this, you need to get this rule as a whole removed.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

1. If you are arguing that scaling between all of them is fair, you’re arguing for compositing the canons. So I’m not strawmanning.

This is not the case.
They don't need to be canon to each other. Both are canon to the greater cosmology.

1. You also didn’t respond to my questions at all. Deciding whether Arceus exists between all of the mediums is a fairly tricky question. We do not assume this is the case for other multiversal entities do even if “their portrayal is consistent!” we need actual hard proof.

If Arceus created all the multiverse, then Arceus is present in the entire multiverse. I don't understand why that's your question, it's a self answering dilemma.

1. Being created by the same Pokémon=/=sharing the same abilities. You didn’t really answer that point either. Why would it?

This is also a self answering question. Simply because it's the same species. Arceus created all the species in all the universes, it made no differentiation between them across the Universe, as it had no reason to. Arceus creating a Pikachu in the game universe, and creating it in the Anime universe is quite literally the same thing.
Now, why are the two Pikachu's different? They are the same species.

 

[Ayewale]

Others have already brought this up. The site specifically has a rule that allows for the cross scaling of species on species pages. They are not considered composites and are allowed.

This is different from character compositing, and if your going to argue against this, you need to get this rule as a whole removed.

Are we really arguing over semantics know?

Okay, he's not arguing for compositing the canons, he arguing for making all of the pages cross-scaled, which is compositing feats from different canons.

 

[StrymULTRA]

(although strym literally isn’t lmao).

I literally asked a summary of your "contradictions" like 3 times. But keep ignoring.

 

[Ayewale]

This is not the case.
They don't need to be canon to each other. Both are canon to the greater cosmology.

If Arceus created all the multiverse, then Arceus is present in the entire multiverse. I don't understand why that's your question, it's a self answering dilemma.

This is also a self answering question. Simply because it's the same species. Arceus created all the species in all the universes, it made no differentiation between them across the Universe, as it had no reason to. Arceus creating a Pikachu in the game universe, and creating it in the Anime universe is quite literally the same thing.
Now, why are the two Pikachu's different? They are the same species.

1. Why are we assuming that all versions of Arceus are the same? "He created the multiverse" and? Any statements referring to this could easily be referring to a specific medium, as every single Pokemon game is it's own multiverse (per the accepted blog on the Pokemon games) and the animes and manga contain their own multiverses as well.
2. If we assume that Arceus is the same, why do we assume that all the Pokemon species he created are the same? You have to explicitly explain why he made them to all be the same. Not "he created all of them, so they're all the same".

As for differences between different mediums, this has already been discussed in-depth in this thread. I find it really annoying how you guys will point out how I make slight semantic differences in word choices but dozens to hundreds of posts of detail is something you can ignore. Can all of the opposition please go through some of the thread again so that I can stop repeating myself?

 

[Ayewale]

I literally asked a summary of your "contradictions" like 3 times. But keep ignoring.

About the reasons why I agree with the cross-scaling, I'd like to first make YOU ALL READ THE FOLLOWING BLOG. IS NOT FROM EXECUTORN0, but from an off-site source which tells all the possible links between the various medias. Before addressing my points, you all should read this blog, otherwise is literally just ignoring really important points for the sake of your views. If you don't read this, the counter-point is essentially null.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And now I'm asking a summary. But keep spamming.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Are we really arguing over semantics know?

Okay, he's not arguing for compositing the canons, he arguing for making all of the pages cross-scaled, which is compositing feats from different canons.

That is absolutely allowed if they qualify. I believe Pokemon species qualify. They share a common creator, thus they are the same species.
Both canon to the greater world of Pokemon.

1. Why are we assuming that all versions of Arceus are the same? "He created the multiverse" and? Any statements referring to this could easily be referring to a specific medium, as every single Pokemon game is it's own multiverse (per the accepted blog on the Pokemon games) and the animes and manga contain their own multiverses as well.

We are assuming Arceus is the same in his own Multiverse, yes.
It's confirmed that the Anime, Movies and the Games are part of the same Multiverse, so we can leave out the manga if you wish.

2. If we assume that Arceus is the same, why do we assume that all the Pokemon species he created are the same? You have to explicitly explain why he made them to all be the same. Not "he created all of them, so they're all the same".

Because if he makes a Pikachu in X place, then make a Pikachu in Y place, both are Pikachu... but in different locations from his perspective.

He isn't making two species, he is making one and putting them in different universes.

As for differences between different mediums, this has already been discussed in-depth in this thread. I find it really annoying how you guys will point out how I make slight semantic differences in word choices but dozens to hundreds of posts of detail is something you can ignore. Can all of the opposition please go through some of the thread again so that I can stop repeating myself?

I am not even opposition, nor am I asking for differences in mechanics or rules, they don't matter at all to my argument.

 

[Agnaa]

We are assuming Arceus is the same in his own Multiverse, yes.
It's confirmed that the Anime, Movies and the Games are part of the same Multiverse, so we can leave out the manga if you wish.

This isn't really responding to the argument that Ayewale presented here. That since each of those mediums has their own multiverse, they could each have theirn own Arceus creating their mini-multiverse, while sharing a greater multiverse. Leading to there being multiple distinct versions of Arceus that each created their own Pokemon, leading them to not scale, under your reasoning.