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Goku fights an Emo Ghost

[[1]] is footage from Rise of Darkrai. Looks passive to me.

Idk how to show you that Darkrai can phase through walls in PMD, so you'll probably have to just take my word for it
 
GyroNutz said:
[[1]] is footage from Rise of Darkrai. Looks passive to me.
Idk how to show you that Darkrai can phase through walls in PMD, so you'll probably have to just take my word for it
Click to expand...
The link doesn't work.
 
Where does it show it going intangible in the AMV? As I previously said even as a shadow it was shown to be affected by Pikachu'sThunderbolt. Also, yes, it can phase through walls but even the most basic of attacks can harm it when its not in the wall.
 
I mean, pretty much every Pokemon has non-physical interaction (and if it's not on their profiles, I'm 99.9% sure they should) including Ash's Pikachu.

Clips from the movie get copystriked pretty quickly
 
I don't see how that's elemental intangibility? Elements can't travel through walls + the floor.
 
GyroNutz said:
I don't see how that's elemental intangibility? Elements can't travel through walls + the floor.
Click to expand...
Elemental intangibility is that you become your element.

In this case, the element of shadows and darkness.
 
GyroNutz said:
'Shadows and darkness' acts like normal intangibility though
Click to expand...
There are four types of maintainability:

Elemental Intangibility: The ability to become intangible by transforming into a substance, such as wind, fire, or water, making it so that most attacks merely disperse them instead of truly damaging them, allowing them to regenerate. However, this would still leave the user vulnerable to many forms of attack, such as sufficiently powerful energy or elemental attacks.

Immaterial: This type of intangibility allows the user to phase through most attacks due to not being made up of a physical substance, such as ghosts or characters who merely exist as a disembodied soul. It also includes characters that are made up of things like energy. Of course, this intangibility type still has its own weaknesses - a soul is vulnerable to soul manipulation, for example.

Phasing: The ability to phase through matter by becoming briefly intangible, sometimes through such means as vibrating one's molecules at such a speed that it becomes possible to move through physical matter. This includes doing things like altering your own density to phase through objects. However, this does not necessarily allow the user to phase through immaterial energy-based attacks.

Spatial: The ability to shift into other dimensions so as to avoid and phase through attacks. While this allows them to avoid most forms of attack, they can still be affected by attacks that operate on similar principles and by those with sufficient range to target them in the other dimension.



Darkrai's becoming shadows fits most closely with Elemental - it doesn't mean it isn't a normal type of intangibility - it's just a specific type.

It would be different from the Flash moving his molecules at different frequencies to phase through objects.


it really doesn't mean anything - I would just like proof of Cal's claims that it works on people who can touch intangibles already since that determines this match significantly.
 
You didn't need to quote the whole intangibility page man...

Elemental intangbility refers to something with a non-solid but material form. Water, air and fire aren't immaterial, and you don't need non-physical interaction to interact with them. Being made of water or an element won't allow you to phase through attacks and solid objects.

Immaterial intangbility - what I refer to as normal intangibility - does require NPI to interact with and can phase through objects. Therefore Darkrai fits better with the second definition.

I'd like to see what Cal says too
 
"First of all, very big obvious PIS for what I italicized. And second of all.....nah thats all I really need. And I really hope your not being serious on this point."

That's a very common thing for "PIS" then. Also just passing it off as PIS and saying "Nah" isn't evidence nor proof. If they, in-character, just use it for everything flat out then it isn't a feat of how dangerous Darkrai is.

I'm going to be honest, the next 2 paragraphs I don't really... get? I think we're miscommunicating on some level because all I said was that LT uses Barriers a lot so them using it isn't really a feat, nothing about CT yet.

"I also fail to see what this has to do with my point. Dialga and Palkia both flat out needed to use forcefields to stop Dark Void from hitting them. Why would they actively need to do that if Dark Void's hax was no greater than the Lake Trio's? It's a blatant legitimate feat of Darkrai being > the LT in mind hax."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but has the Lake Trio actually ever been used to their max power or fought someone on their level to show their limits? You're probably facepalming and going "Seriously?" right now but it would not be the first time in pokemon that hax like this affects stupidly higher level characters.

Also my original point was that just because they used barriers (Also it wasn't even "actively" like you're making it out to be. Darkrai literally used Darkvoid once against them) doesn't automatically mean Darkrai is immediately more dangerous. Also Palkia and Dialga, when not facetanking attacks, spam their barriers a lot as well (More Palkia. Dialga sort of facetanked more stuff which seemed to just make him angrier).

"To beings who can freely travel across universes on a whim (which is literally any pokemon god tier besides maybe Cresselia), and are omnipresent across all of them, not wanting to be BFR'd means literally nothing to them when they can easily come back. And in seconds."

Wasn't the literal universe being destroyed at the time...? I remember everything was being disintegrated and the universe itself was collapsing unless they rung a bell thing that made everything come back or something.

"RoT BFR's the opponent to a different time period when used. Palkia was hit by it and wasnt bfr'd in the slightest. So why would either of them care about the BFR of someone only comparable to their power at best?"

Again, last I checked, it was never used in that fashion in the movie. Unless there's a novel or manga that retells this story, this flat out never happened. Dialga DID roar and cause ripples in the world with his Roar of Time, but never used in the fashion you're describing.

As for the intangibility discussion, where are people getting Darkrai spams it or passively has it? At least in the Darkrai vs Palkia and Dialga fight, he never once phased through any attacks and actively dodged and blocked attacks instead. Heck that Licky Licky guy was able to hold Darkrai down for a few seconds. Sure would've been a good time to use Intangibility if it was so natural to him instead of having to brute force his way through. From what's described, every pokemon has the same degree of NPI as Xeno Goku (Able to touch Ghosts/Souls) and as such Xeno Goku should also be able to touch Darkrai.

Also would've been useful in lolnoping all the attacks of pokemon that tried to gang up on him. Instead he blocked it all, got angry and said "Stay out of the way!" and used Darkvoid.

Another subject, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but Darkrai used Dark Void all of once against Palkia and Dialga. Even if his mindhax was dangerous to the CT, he literally used it once and proceeded to get his bum kicked. I again have no idea where people are getting Darkrai spams it because I'm not seeing "Spamming".

I'll go watch the movie again tonight but I'm really not seeing a lot of these points for Darkrai.
 
GyroNutz said:
Immaterial intangbility - what I refer to as normal intangibility - does require NPI to interact with and can phase through objects. Therefore Darkrai fits better with the second definition.
I'd like to see what Cal says too
Click to expand...
He doesn't phase through attacks instead dodges them. That's why I said it might be Elemental
 
Sorry. Been focusing on some college exams so im here late.

>That's a very common thing for "PIS" then.

No more common than the Creation Trio getting attacked by regular pokemon, which we chalk off as usual PIS everytime for obvious reason? The Lake Trio doing this (which I dont even recall) is literally no different unless you expect these guys to instantly stomp in every encounter against every pokemon that isn't named Arceus or Giratina.

>Also just passing it off as PIS and saying "Nah" isn't evidence nor proof. If they, in-character, just use it for everything flat out then it isn't a feat of how dangerous Darkrai is.

Except they don't...use forcefields for everything? The Lake Trio, to my knowledge, have literally only used forcefields once in all their encounters in the franchise. And it was against Dialga/Palkia, who are superior to them. So yes, saying its PIS for them to use it against a non-legendary, which they have never to my understanding, is evidence. Unless, again, you expect these guys to be written as no-selling everything to go against plot. Which we both know is obviously never the case.

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but has the Lake Trio actually ever been used to their max power or fought someone on their level to show their limits? You're probably facepalming and going "Seriously?" right now but it would not be the first time in pokemon that hax like this affects stupidly higher level characters.

First off, nah im not. Am I surprised? Yes but im gonna keep this as civil as possible.

Second off, to answer your question, yes. In the games, when they showed up to try and free Dialga and Palkia from the Red Chains, Cyrus made it perfectly clear that the entire power of the Lake Trio is only able to match one of them. It can't go up against both. That means that none of the lake guardians individually can do shit to Dialga and Palkia, period. They need to be all together to even do anything to one of them, evidenced by all 3 combined failing to free both of them.

The anime also shows this. It takes the entire Lake Trio combined to even block a single Roar of Time from Dialga. After Cyrus is defeated, the Lake Trio do sate both Dialga and Palkia but they needed to telepathically bond with Ash, Dawn and Brock in order to boost their mental prowse to effect both simutaneously.

>(Also it wasn't even "actively" like you're making it out to be. Darkrai literally used Darkvoid once against them)

I wasnt talking about Darkrai here though. I was talking about Dialga and Palkia. Both of them actively activated forcefields when Darkrai fired Dark Void at them. Again, if Darkrai's mind hax was no higher than the Lake Trio's (who need to be all together to do shit to even one of them), why would they need forcefields at all? They literally would have just sat through it like nothing.

This is also not the first time Darkrai has used better mind hax than the Lake Trio. In PMD, Darkrai puts Palkia under a nightmare extremely easily. Right then and there, it easily did a feat that the entire Lake Trio would need to be together to do. That should show even more why Darkrai's mind hax is definitely above the lake guardians.

>Also my original point was that just because they used barriers doesn't automatically mean Darkrai is immediately more dangerous.

It does when comparing Darkrai to the lake guardians. Not Dialga and Palkia, who are obviously superior to him.

>Also Palkia and Dialga, when not facetanking attacks, spam their barriers a lot as well.

Against each other sure. Not to anyone else thats weaker than them.

>Wasn't the literal universe being destroyed at the time...? I remember everything was being disintegrated and the universe itself was collapsing unless they rung a bell thing that made everything come back or something.

Your remembering it wrong. Dialga and Palkia werent destroying the Unowns universe (where they were fighting), they were causing Alamos Town to vanish when Palkia brought it into the crossfire. It took Ash and Dawn to play the Oracion Song in the Time-Space tower to calm them down and restore the town before Palkia was requested to teleport it back to Ash's universe.

Before Alamos Town got involved, they were sending shockwaves across universes though. Even across different time periods in the manga version of the movie. I also think it was stated if their signature moves collided the dimension would be destroyed as collateral but thats it.

>Again, last I checked, it was never used in that fashion in the movie. Unless there's a novel or manga that retells this story, this flat out never happened. Dialga DID roar and cause ripples in the world with his Roar of Time, but never used in the fashion you're describing.

The "sending back in time" part doesnt come from Rise of Darkrai. It comes from the Pokemon Ranger games (Guardian Signs I believe). Dialga when injured sends the player back in time when blasting them with Roar of Time. This would apply to Dialga in general since it's all the same Dialga.

Even if im wrong, this doesnt take away from my point. Beings who can freely travel to alternate universes on a whim are not gonna care about being BFR'd in the slightest.

>At least in the Darkrai vs Palkia and Dialga fight, he never once phased through any attacks and actively dodged and blocked attacks instead.

Just going to say this is not a good counter argument considering literally every attack both of them unleashed in that movie was destroying and effecting space-time. Like, literally every attack.

>Heck that Licky Licky guy was able to hold Darkrai down for a few seconds. Sure would've been a good time to use Intangibility if it was so natural to him instead of having to brute force his way through.

Or, maybe, he didnt bother using intangibility because Licky Licky is infinitely fodder compared to him? To the point where Darkrai sent him flying literally seconds later? Having an ability doesnt mean you always need it, unless the opponent is actually someone threatening to you. There's also the unbelievebly strong likelyhood that this is a massive outlier for Licky Licky and the movie was just trying to give him his 30 seconds of fame for being a human transformed into a Licky Licky.

That said, I dont now where the "passive" part of this is coming from. I've been busy with school and was skimming through this quickly. I'll comment later if I see it.

>Also would've been useful in lolnoping all the attacks of pokemon that tried to gang up on him. Instead he blocked it all, got angry and said "Stay out of the way!" and used Darkvoid.

See above for this too. This is not at all a good counter argument either. Unless you want to argue that each of these fodder mon are 2-B (which they aren't), Darkrai didnt use his intangibility because he didnt need it.

>Another subject, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but Darkrai used Dark Void all of once against Palkia and Dialga. Even if his mindhax was dangerous to the CT, he literally used it once and proceeded to get his bum kicked.

Because Darkrai is obviously not stupid enough to try using it again against opponents who have a clear alternate defense for it? Darkvoid is > Dialga and Palkia's resistance but not their forcefields. Darkrai is already weaker in every stat compared to the both of them, so hax would be his only saving grace to last against them and it got flat out noped by their forcefields. So that shows Dark Void isnt going to be useful. Why try and use it again when they would just use the same defense to stop it again? It's a repetitive strategy.

Hell, it took Darkrai every ounce of effort he had to just prevent Roar of Time and Spacial Rend from colliding by absorbing the damage. And this was before Dialga and Palkia nuked him out of existence with casual attacks moments later.
 
gosh, nothing but large amounts of text

also, if Dialga can't win against Xeno Goku (I'll digress about my personal feelings about THAT match), what makes Darkrai any capable of winning here?
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Because ABC logic.
Also Goku shouldn't have beaten Dialga.
Click to expand...
This.

But whats done is done and no one wants to spend their time and energy dealing with it again so, for now, it's whatever.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Because ABC logic.
Also Goku shouldn't have beaten Dialga.
Click to expand...
I'm with you there on that last part. I don't remember who was involved that made the match turn out that way, but I wasn't pleased with the reasonings behind it. Idk if I remember properly, but I was brushed off multiple times with the explanations consisting of essentially "Goku has resistance and AP advantage, so he auto-wins". I digress, though. Rather not ham about it more and derail things here.
 
Dragopentling said:
I'm with you there on that last part. I don't remember who was involved that made the match turn out that way, but I wasn't pleased with the reasonings behind it. Idk if I remember properly, but I was brushed off multiple times with the explanations consisting of essentially "Goku has resistance and AP advantage, so he auto-wins". I digress, though. Rather not ham about it more and derail things here.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure Xeno Goku won because he takes things seriously in-character, he held the massive AP advantage, and that Dialga didn't so his time shit as his first move in-character.

Nothing about any resistances whatsoever.
 
Warren Valion said:
Dragopentling said:
I'm with you there on that last part. I don't remember who was involved that made the match turn out that way, but I wasn't pleased with the reasonings behind it. Idk if I remember properly, but I was brushed off multiple times with the explanations consisting of essentially "Goku has resistance and AP advantage, so he auto-wins". I digress, though. Rather not ham about it more and derail things here.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure Xeno Goku won because he takes things seriously in-character, he held the massive AP advantage, and that Dialga didn't so his time shit as his first move in-character.
Nothing about any resistances whatsoever.
Click to expand...
So what happened to Dialga's ability to foresee the attack via nigh-omnipresence and ability to manipulate time?
 
If I remember correctly Dialga's go to move Roar of Time now, or is going to if the CRT is ever finished, has temporal BFR added to it.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
The reasoning wasn't that Goku resisted time manip, but that Dialga wouldn't start with it.
Click to expand...
Doesn't mean Dialga won't foresee something from Goku that would make the former reconsider the initial approach.

Anyways, rather not derail the thread any further, since it's Goku vs Darkrai right now.
 
@Dragopentling

The whole debate in that match is that Dialga doesn't manipulate time as his starting move - I believe a clip was shown from a movie where you see Dialga ram his head into Palkia as his starting move - and because of that, Goku would be able to get off an attack and kill Dialga with his superior AP.

I don't remember anything about "forseeing" attacks, nor do I see Precognition on his profile, so I don't know what to tell you there.
 
Xerkser500 said:
DragonEmperor23 said:
The reasoning wasn't that Goku resisted time manip, but that Dialga wouldn't start with it.
Click to expand...
Which multiple people, including myself, gave counter arguments for why that reasoning was complete bullshit.
Click to expand...
I was just saying, saying that Goku would resist Dialga's abilities was never a part of why he would win.
 
Warren Valion said:
@Dragopentling
The whole debate in that match is that Dialga doesn't manipulate time as his starting move - I believe a clip was shown from a movie where you see Dialga ram his head into Palkia as his starting move - and because of that, Goku would be able to get off an attack and kill Dialga with his superior AP.

I don't remember anything about "forseeing" attacks, nor do I sePrecognitionon on his profile, so I don't know what to tell you there.
Click to expand...
Let's just say that Nigh-Omnipresence is a more superior take on Preincog.

As for the movie, it's just shenanigans. The film wants to take the route of envisioning two feral beasts physically duking it out because both sides thought the other was trepassing on their personal space. And Darkrai was unsuccessfully trying to make peacemaker.

I do not see anything really in-character in that movie, at least for the Poke Gods.....though it was one of the better Pokemon films, imo.
 
Dragopentling said:
Anyways, rather not derail the thread any further, since it's Goku vs Darkrai right now.
Click to expand...
Good point.

I still don't see what stops Goku from using his Instant Transmission and massive AP advantage from dodging Darkrai's Dark Void and kicking him in the face, killing him.
 
Warren Valion said:
The whole debate in that match is that Dialga doesn't manipulate time as his starting move - I believe a clip was shown from a movie where you see Dialga ram his head into Palkia as his starting move - and because of that, Goku would be able to get off an attack and kill Dialga with his superior AP.
Click to expand...
And this means absolutely nothing when Dialga knows beforehand that his opponent has resistance to literally all of his time-related abilities. Hence why he wouldnt start off with time hax against his explicit equal.
 
Warren Valion said:
Dragopentling said:
Anyways, rather not derail the thread any further, since it's Goku vs Darkrai right now.
Click to expand...
Good point.
I still don't see what stops Goku from using his Instant Transmission and massive AP advantage from dodging Darkrai's Dark Void and kicking him in the face, killing him.
Click to expand...
well I did not say Darkrai can beat Goku even once, though :p
 
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