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Goku and Ginyu upgrade

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Vizer04 said:
Zarbon tells Vegeta that he can transform just like Saiyans do, the only difference is that he doesn't grow in size like them (referring to the huge Oozaru Form)
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Broken link, but going off of the text you had it linked to: I don't know how this equates to Zarbon saying that his power increases by 10x when he transforms, it'd just be saying that he can transform. So I don't agree with that.
 
Pretty sure Ozaru transformation statement was rejected, and the proposal to have Ginyu saga Goku downscale from the 1st 3 forms of Frieza was also rejected.
 
Vizer04 said:
Monster Zarbon Upgrade
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This is just referring to his ability to transform in general.

Vizer04 said:
Goku and Ginyu Upgrade
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I don't think downscaling like that is good. We have no idea if his kaioken forms are linear or non linear in power level so we don't actually know if kaioken 10x Goku was stronger than freeza. And even if they were linear then he wouldn't be able to beat 2nd form.
 
I am not understanding the logic here.

What does Vegeta saying that he needs Goku's help to fight Freeza entail here? It only means Vegeta does not consider himself strong enough to defeat Freeza and needs help from Goku. He assumes that if they both fight together, they'd have a better chance, than only one of them fighting.

Similarly, Goku is just wishing that everybody could hold on for a bit longer so that he can come and help.

These statements don't provide any surety that Goku + Vegeta = 1st form Freeza or Goku = 2nd form Freeza.
 
Yeah, these are relatively awkward logics and we refrained from having Frieza's to downscale to anyone's AP. We saw Vegeta be evenly matched with 1st form Frieza in every detail, so he is fine where he's at but Ginyu saga Goku has always been shocked by how crazy Frieza's PL was compared to his own, and was 100% certain that even if he could go Kaioken 10x, that he'd stand no chance against 3rd form Frieza. But it's unknown how well he'd fair against 2nd or 3rd form Frieza; whether even his 1st form is faster than Kaioken x10, or if Goku can actually match or surpass the raw power. So we stick with low ends; that's not downscaling Goku's AP from Frieza at all, and 3rd form Frieza being "Likely faster" than a Kaioken x10 Goku. But not applying that to 1st and 2nd forms.
 
AKM sama said:
Goku is just wishing that everybody could hold on for a bit longer so that he can come and help
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Again, if he thinks he can be of any help against Frieza then he must be at least comparable to Vegeta, and even that is not enough since Vegeta was helpless against Frieza:
http://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/214/25-104.0/compressed/hdragon_ball_z_v009-138.jpg?token=05462c4d1241cd24337a42dc27f18107b0032bbb&ttl=1642348800
http://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/214/25-104.0/compressed/hdragon_ball_z_v009-140.jpg?token=aa7bd774cefde928e7538e18e85661830cff990e&ttl=1642348800
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Goku was confident that if they could hold off second form Frieza for a little longer (until he heals), then he'd be able to do something and help Gohan, Krillin and Vegeta against second form Frieza, which is something that even Vegeta could not harm at all

It doesn't mean that Goku would scale to second form Frieza, but this will put his maximum power above Vegeta's level who scales to first form Frieza, and since Goku was confident he could use a kaioken times 10, scaling Namek Saga Goku with KK10 above Vegeta at this point should be plausable
 
Could be Goku's wishful thinking and he could be factoring in the fact that he would receive a good zenkai after healing completely. It was a desperate situation and he just wanted to be there to help out.
 
AKM sama said:
Could be Goku's wishful thinking and he could be factoring in the fact that he would receive a good zenkai after healing completely. It was a desperate situation and he just wanted to be there to help out.
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Goku was definitely not thinking he would get a good zenkai after healing. He was completely surprised by the immense power he recieved after finally healing

Oh and Goku had no knowledge of zenkai boosts and how they work
 
"I thought i'd reached my limit before... but this... this makes even me shudder..."
 
Huh, considering he just healed up after the Saiyan saga I thought he would already have some idea about it. But I'd need to check it, I guess.
 
AKM sama said:
Huh, considering he just healed up after the Saiyan saga I thought he would already have some idea about it. But I'd need to check it, I guess.
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Even if he did, he certainly did not expect such a massive increase that it'll be a massive amp. And I'm pretty sure even the zenkai he recieved in the Saiyan Saga wasn't that big as his power in the Namek Saga came from training in high gravity
 
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I see. I'll retract that part of the reason then. Although, I still don't think Goku was thinking that out of sheer confidence. It was more so out of desperation and his wishful thinking. But it's up in the air and could be either. So I'll switch to neutral on Goku's hypothetical kaiokenx10 scaling to 1st form Freeza's feat.
 
AKM sama said:
I see. I'll retract that part of the reason then. Although, I still don't think Goku was thinking that out of sheer confidence. It was more so out of desperation and his wishful thinking. But it's up in the air and could be either. So I'll switch to neutral on Goku's hypothetical kaiokenx10 scaling to 1st form Freeza's feat.
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If Goku thought he could help, then that would at least place him higher than Vegeta at the time, who scales to first form Frieza, as even when Vegeta hit Frieza while he was off guard, the attack still did absolutely nothing, so if Goku could do more than nothing here, he probably scales

And the feat done by Frieza was when he was very casual, not when he used his full power of 530,000, so this is actually a lowball
 
AKM sama said:
Goku was thinking that out of sheer confidence. It was more so out of desperation and his wishful thinking.
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What reason does he have to be that overconfident? Also, i'm pretty sure Gohan and Krillin said "we must wait for Goku, he's our last hope" or something along those lines
 
You misunderstand me. I didn't say he was being overconfident. More like "oh my god my friends are not able to do anything, just don't die, I'll come and help" kind of situation, even if he might fail. But, as I said, this seems okay, so I am neutral (leaning toward agreement unless more points are brought up).
 
Not to mention, this is one of the few times when power levels actually correlate with the story:

Goku: 90,000

KKx10: 900,000

2nd Form Frieza: < 1,000,000

So, it's logical that he thinks he could do something against Frieza and the power levels just support even further this scaling
 
AKM sama said:
You misunderstand me. I didn't say he was being overconfident. More like "oh my god my friends are not able to do anything, just don't die, I'll come and help" kind of situation, even if he might fail. But, as I said, this seems okay, so I am neutral (leaning toward agreement unless more points are brought up).
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If he could do something to second form Frieza, that would at least place his full power above Vegeta at the time, since Vegeta couldn't even scratch Frieza, while Goku was confident he could do something. Goku is also not overconfident in character. He knows his strength and his limits very well (as shown in later sagas when he senses Perfect Cell's energy)
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, these are relatively awkward logics and we refrained from having Frieza's to downscale to anyone's AP. We saw Vegeta be evenly matched with 1st form Frieza in every detail, so he is fine where he's at but Ginyu saga Goku has always been shocked by how crazy Frieza's PL was compared to his own, and was 100% certain that even if he could go Kaioken 10x, that he'd stand no chance against 3rd form Frieza. But it's unknown how well he'd fair against 2nd or 3rd form Frieza; whether even his 1st form is faster than Kaioken x10, or if Goku can actually match or surpass the raw power. So we stick with low ends; that's not downscaling Goku's AP from Frieza at all, and 3rd form Frieza being "Likely faster" than a Kaioken x10 Goku. But not applying that to 1st and 2nd forms.
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You have been really silent during the discussion, does any of our arguments convince you?
 
AKM sama said:
I see. I'll retract that part of the reason then. Although, I still don't think Goku was thinking that out of sheer confidence. It was more so out of desperation and his wishful thinking. But it's up in the air and could be either. So I'll switch to neutral on Goku's hypothetical kaiokenx10 scaling to 1st form Freeza's feat.
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Given Goku's capabilities of Power Reading, I'd say his opinion on how he'd do against an opponent is considerable, at the very least. This desperate thinking doesn't seem very "Goku", as he is completely helpless once third form freeza shows up, claiming he won't be able to do anything.

Thus, his previous comment was likely about how he'd be actually useful against 2nd Form Freeza, which seems reasonable in my opinion.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
This desperate thinking doesn't seem very "Goku", as he is completely helpless once third form freeza shows up, claiming he won't be able to do anything.
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Yeah, Goku isn't actually very desperate in character, even when the situation seems dire. And besides, if Goku knew he wouldn't make a difference (since even Vegeta couldn't, he would've said it, and he did said it when Frieza transformed again)
 
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