Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Don't forget about the Post Cell Saga Trunks scaling (basically Base Trunks scaling to 489 Tenatons and SSJ Trunks scaling above 1 FOE and Dabura and Perfect Cell scaling above that).

We should leave that for another thread, it's a whole separate discussion from the main point of this thread and there is still a debate on it.

Since most agree that characters's statements about using only half their power would be apply to their speed too, everyone comparable or faster than Future Android 17 should be fully Massively FTL+, that also means that Buu Saga Vegeta and Goku should be Massively FTL+ in their Base.

Yeah, we may need to make another CRT for that.

That hasn't been accepted yet, that probably needs another thread too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will use that blog for reference after work.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ok, I'm mostly done but I didn't do any of the super profiles, I'd appreciate if someone takes a look to spot any mistakes in the scaling or justifications or anything. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Dragon_Ball_Z_power_scaling

Also, do we treat Buu's absorptions as linear or not?

Yeah, he adds on the power of those he absorbed.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I forgot, was Buutenks shit stomping Gohan, or did Gohan put up a fight?

 

[BlastX]

In the anime he puts up a fight then gets stomped, in the manga he always got stomped

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Got it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is stated to be 10 times stronger than regular SSJ (or Grade 2 SSJ). FP SSJ Goku at 50% of his power shocked Vegeta and Trunks with his power, despite Trunks using said SSJ Grade 3

In the wiki page for SSJ Grade 3, it was stated that: "Trunks acquires a force 10 times greater, but his movement skills are more limited.", which is likely referring to his Grade 2 SSJ form, which he used before powering up further

So: 100% FP SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% FP SSJ Goku >> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks >= 10 * SSJ Grade 2 Trunks (Post-HBTC) >> Semi Perfect Cell > 2 * Present Android 17 > Android Saga SSJ Vegeta > Future Android 17 = 489 Tenatons

That would mean that:

SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks = 9,780 Tenatons = 4.091952e+43 joules = 0.4091952 Foe = High 4-C

100% FP SSJ Goku = 19,560 Tenatons = 8.183904e+43 joules = 0.8183904 Foe = High 4-C

Base Goku = 391.2 Tenatons = 4-C

That said, I would want if someone could translate what does this scan says in Spanish, as it might have more important information

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is stated to be 10 times stronger than regular SSJ (or Grade 2 SSJ). FP SSJ Goku at 50% of his power shocked Vegeta and Trunks with his power, despite Trunks using said SSJ Grade 3

In the wiki page for SSJ Grade 3, it was stated that: "Trunks acquires a force 10 times greater, but his movement skills are more limited.", which is likely referring to his Grade 2 SSJ form, which he used before powering up further

So: 100% FP SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% FP SSJ Goku >> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks >= 10 * SSJ Grade 2 Trunks (Post-HBTC) >> Semi Perfect Cell > 2 * Present Android 17 > Android Saga SSJ Vegeta > Future Android 17 = 489 Tenatons

That would mean that:

SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks = 9,780 Tenatons = 4.091952e+43 joules = 0.4091952 Foe = High 4-C

100% FP SSJ Goku = 19,560 Tenatons = 8.183904e+43 joules = 0.8183904 Foe = High 4-C

Base Goku = 391.2 Tenatons = 4-C

That said, I would want if someone could translate what does this scan says in Spanish, as it might have more important information

I know of SSJG3 and it's multiplier's existence, but that needs a completely different thread to get that multiplier accepted as it boost the multipliers by a genuinely ridiculous amount.
Edit: I should also mention that Trunks was stronger than suppressed cell who was stronger than SSJ Goku and Gohan so that scaling doesn't really work either way.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Edit: I should also mention that Trunks was stronger than suppressed cell who was stronger than SSJ Goku and Gohan so that scaling doesn't really work either way.

No. Cell was less suppressed in the Cell Games. Cell himself clearly states that no other fighter is even close to Goku, and Trunks himself was shocked by half of Goku's power depite knowing the extent of his own power beforehand

So: Suppressed Perfect Cell (Cell Games) > 100% FP SSJ Goku >> 50% FP SSJ Goku >>> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks > Suppressed Perfect Cell (Initially)

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is stated to be 10 times stronger than regular SSJ (or Grade 2 SSJ). FP SSJ Goku at 50% of his power shocked Vegeta and Trunks with his power, despite Trunks using said SSJ Grade 3

In the wiki page for SSJ Grade 3, it was stated that: "Trunks acquires a force 10 times greater, but his movement skills are more limited.", which is likely referring to his Grade 2 SSJ form, which he used before powering up further

So: 100% FP SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% FP SSJ Goku >> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks >= 10 * SSJ Grade 2 Trunks (Post-HBTC) >> Semi Perfect Cell > 2 * Present Android 17 > Android Saga SSJ Vegeta > Future Android 17 = 489 Tenatons

That would mean that:

SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks = 9,780 Tenatons = 4.091952e+43 joules = 0.4091952 Foe = High 4-C

100% FP SSJ Goku = 19,560 Tenatons = 8.183904e+43 joules = 0.8183904 Foe = High 4-C

Base Goku = 391.2 Tenatons = 4-C

That said, I would want if someone could translate what does this scan says in Spanish, as it might have more important information

I read the rest of the article and it doesn't mention stuff we didn't already know, just reaffirming it (like Vegeta being stronger than Semi Perfect Cell after his training and that Trunks was confident he found a power that could surpass his father). Also Cell in the bottom right scan is saying "A transformation that only augments strength is useless. You're an idiot." and the 10× multiplier is for strength as well.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

It also states that Vegeta before his training couldn't defeat neither Cell nor the Androids.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It also states that Vegeta before his training couldn't defeat neither Cell nor the Androids.

Well we already know that. But the same Vegeta fought pretty decently until Present 18 before his stamina ran out, which allowed her to defeat him easily

However, the Present Androids are FAR stronger than their future selves, so it's very likely SSJ Vegeta surpassed the Future Androids, but not the Present Androids

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah, it only states that he can't beat the androids and cell, not that he's weaker or anything like that.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, it only states that he can't beat the androids and cell, not that he's weaker or anything like that.

Alright

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 is stated to be 10 times stronger than regular SSJ (or Grade 2 SSJ). FP SSJ Goku at 50% of his power shocked Vegeta and Trunks with his power, despite Trunks using said SSJ Grade 3

In the wiki page for SSJ Grade 3, it was stated that: "Trunks acquires a force 10 times greater, but his movement skills are more limited.", which is likely referring to his Grade 2 SSJ form, which he used before powering up further

So: 100% FP SSJ Goku = 2 * 50% FP SSJ Goku >> SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks >= 10 * SSJ Grade 2 Trunks (Post-HBTC) >> Semi Perfect Cell > 2 * Present Android 17 > Android Saga SSJ Vegeta > Future Android 17 = 489 Tenatons

That would mean that:

SSJ Grade 3 Future Trunks = 9,780 Tenatons = 4.091952e+43 joules = 0.4091952 Foe = High 4-C

100% FP SSJ Goku = 19,560 Tenatons = 8.183904e+43 joules = 0.8183904 Foe = High 4-C

Base Goku = 391.2 Tenatons = 4-C

That said, I would want if someone could translate what does this scan says in Spanish, as it might have more important information

If this is accepted than Buu Saga Goku will be High 4-C in base and 4-B with Super Saiyan Forms.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ah Foe is about 23900.57 tenatons and 22.4 Foe is required to reach 4-B. And thus 535372.84 Tenatons would be the requirement. Also, I don't think we accept what appears to be Spanish versions of guidebook analysis. So I'd refrain from making SSJ3 a 10x multiplier tbh.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also, I don't think we accept what appears to be Spanish versions of guidebook analysis. So I'd refrain from making SSJ3 a 10x multiplier tbh.

The guide is official and approved by the author, so it shouldn't be any different than other guides or secondary material

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The guide is official and approved by the author, so it shouldn't be any different than other guides or secondary material

We don't accept multipliers based on guides alone. Toriyama also approved Daizenshuu, which he then personally corrected with Chouzenshuu, claiming Daizenshuu has "inaccurate info".

approval means almost nothing.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ah Foe is about 23900.57 tenatons and 22.4 Foe is required to reach 4-B. And thus 535372.84 Tenatons would be the requirement. Also, I don't think we accept what appears to be Spanish versions of guidebook analysis. So I'd refrain from making SSJ3 a 10x multiplier tbh.

The spanish guide is fine, the multiplier itself is probably not though. It suffers from the same reasons the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers have, and why they aren't accepted.
SSJG3 10x is only stated in one guide and never stated in the show, which means it's not backed up with hard evidence that we need to accept big multipliers, the only thing it has going is that it's not inconsistent with the power gaps unlike SSJ2 and 3.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Anyway, updated by blog

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The spanish guide is fine, the multiplier itself is probably not though. It suffers from the same reasons the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers have, and why they aren't accepted.
SSJG3 10x is only stated in one guide and never stated in the show, which means it's not backed up with hard evidence that we need to accept big multipliers, the only thing it has going is that it's not inconsistent with the power gaps unlike SSJ2 and 3.

There is nothing inconsistent about SSJG3 = 10 * SSJG2, since the form only appeared in one major battle, and Trunks was noted to heavily eclipse Cell's suppressed power at this form, while their SSJG2 forms were stomped by Cell. With SSJ2, the reason why the 2 times is problematic is because of Gohan defeating Cell at half his power, but that would mean that SSJ Gohan > Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously wrong

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Anyway, updated by blog

Good work, but you messed up a little, that's okay though.

• Gohan also got stronger due to a zenkai boost from Majin Buu and healing, and was strong enough to pull the Z Sword out the Z Sword in his SSJ1 form and carry it in base form while Shin implied he himself couldn't. Gohan further grew much stronger upon training with the Z Sword to where his base form is stronger than his previous SSJ form. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.09 Foe. Scales to the base forms of Buu saga Goku and Vegeta. Goku tanked a point blank sword strike from the Z Sword. Further elaborated by base Vegeta stomping Pui Pui when Shin feared him. Everyone who can break Katchin or Kajuu Katchin is also much stronger given the Z Sword couldn't even scratch it.
• Katchin Busters should at least be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.09 Foe.

Gohan after the buu fight scales above shin in his base form and scales to base Goku, him training with the Z sword didn't make him surpass his previous SSJ form, but the zenkai from buu did, so they should actually scale to 1.956 Kilotenatons. and I'll also fix the "pull the Z sword out the Z sword" typo and remove the part about gohan surpassing his SSJ form, also we should use Yakon as he is actually much more impressive to surpass in base than pui pui. It should look like this.

Gohan also got stronger due to a zenkai boost from Majin Buu and healing, and was strong enough to pull the Z Sword out in his SSJ1 form and carry it in base form while Shin implied he himself couldn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 596.4c, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1491c, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.956 Kilotenatons. Scales to the base forms of Buu saga Goku and Vegeta. Goku tanked a point blank sword strike from the Z Sword. Further elaborated by base Vegeta stomping Pui Pui and base Goku being stronger than Yakon when Shin feared them. Everyone who can break Katchin or Kajuu Katchin is also much stronger given the Z Sword couldn't even scratch it.
Katchin Busters should at least be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>596.4c , possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1491c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.956 Kilotenatons.

Then you should add this

Post Majin buu fight SSJ Gohan scales to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.09 Foe due to being 50x stronger as a SSJ. Scales to SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta.

The solar system dudes are good but while I'm at it, there's also this

• Son Goku returns with a PL of 90,000 blitzing the combined might of Recoome, Burter, and Jeice without even trying. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.982c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 79.28 Zettatons for base Goku.

• Captain Ginyu was more than a match for Goku but not overwhelmingly so, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.982c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 59.44 Zettatons.
• Goku went Kaioken x2 and Ginyu admitted defeat before his trick, and Goku said it was nothing compared to what he can do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.964c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 118.88 Zettatons. It's possible he could go Kaioken x10.
• Goku could easily have gone Kaioken x4, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11.928c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 237.76 Zettatons.

Captain Ginyu is above base Goku so he's 79.28 zettatons, and kaioken 2 goku is 152.56 zettatons and kaioken 4 is 305.12 zettatons.

I'll look over it again to see if there's anything else, anyway thank you for helping out.

There is nothing inconsistent about SSJG3 = 10 * SSJG2, since the form only appeared in one major battle, and Trunks was noted to heavily eclipse Cell's suppressed power at this form, while their SSJG2 forms were stomped by Cell. With SSJ2, the reason why the 2 times is problematic is because of Gohan defeating Cell at half his power, but that would mean that SSJ Gohan > Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously wrong

We should make a CRT then but later.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

There is nothing inconsistent about SSJG3 = 10 * SSJG2, since the form only appeared in one major battle, and Trunks was noted to heavily eclipse Cell's suppressed power at this form, while their SSJG2 forms were stomped by Cell. With SSJ2, the reason why the 2 times is problematic is because of Gohan defeating Cell at half his power, but that would mean that SSJ Gohan > Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously wrong

The lack of hard evidence will make this future CRT absolute hell.
But as of now, it's not accepted, so it won't be added.
Good luck.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The lack of hard evidence will make this future CRT absolute hell.
But as of now, it's not accepted, so it won't be added.
Good luck.

There isn't any antifeats for that either, so idk

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

There isn't any antifeats for that either, so idk

What's left to be discussed here? The SSJ grade 3 multiplier would need to be evaluated for a different thread despite the information contained in the guide.

Aside from this, most of the scaling is already settled.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

There isn't any antifeats for that either, so idk

This would also apply to Cell, and significantly affect scaling... Based off one statement from a Spanish-only guide that was not passed on other guides (including Daizenshuu, and Chouzenshuu, the latter being by Toriyama himself), and therefore is an inconsistent information...
If you can pull this off, all power to you, but eh... Idk,

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This would also apply to Cell, and significantly affect scaling..

Not really though. Goku was already stated to be well above Trunks' power even at 50% of his power. Regardless of if the multiplier will be accepted or not, nothing really would change except that Goku and Gohan's Base forms will be stronger

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not really though. Goku was already stated to be well above Trunks' power even at 50% of his power. Regardless of if the multiplier will be accepted or not, nothing really would change except that Goku and Gohan's Base forms will be stronger

Yeah, no.
Current scaling:
Goku SSJG4 > 2x > Goku SSJG4 (50%) > Trunks/Vegeta

New scaling:
Goku SSJG4 > 2x > Goku SSJG4 (50%) > Trunks SSJG3 > 10x > Trunks/Vegeta.

Instead of 2x, it'd be 20x, which would upgrade the future upscaling because of that one little thing.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, no.
Current scaling:
Goku SSJG4 > 2x > Goku SSJG4 (50%) > Trunks/Vegeta

New scaling:
Goku SSJG4 > 2x > Goku SSJG4 (50%) > Trunks SSJG3 > 10x > Trunks/Vegeta.

Instead of 2x, it'd be 20x, which would upgrade the future upscaling because of that one little thing.

Well yes, but there's nothing in canon that is really against it. My point is that the numbers here don't matter since narratively this changes nothing. The only things that would change are Goku, Gohan and Cell's AP here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well yes, but there's nothing in canon that is really against it.

That's not really the thing. The upgrade is Powerscaling is still there, and this still needs hard evidence.
Goku being 10x faster and stronger, and having Kaioken x10 pre-zenkai, something stated in the Manga itself, was never fully accepted despite having so much evidence including guides. It's clear the current standard won't allow for a multiplier from a single guide that's not stated in any other to be applicable.

Not saying I agree or disagree with you, just pointing out.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What's left to be discussed here? The SSJ grade 3 multiplier would need to be evaluated for a different thread despite the information contained in the guide.

Aside from this, most of the scaling is already settled.

Dragon man updates the blog, do the profiles and we are 90% done. and we should maybe probably discuss whether the ginyu force scale above kk4 goku or not. The rest can be done in other threads, like base trunks > imperfect cell scaling, grade 3 multiplier and other stuff.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Honestly whether the Ginyu Force scale to KKx4 or not doesn't affect much. They upscale quite a bit over Vegeta who was 30,000 at the time, while KKx4 Goku is around 32,000, so I think they should at least be given a possible scaling.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Dragon man updates the blog, do the profiles and we are 90% done. and we should maybe probably discuss whether the ginyu force scale above kk4 goku or not. The rest can be done in other threads, like base trunks > imperfect cell scaling, grade 3 multiplier and other stuff.

Are the pages already unlocked?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Are the pages already unlocked?

What the hell? Who unlocked them? Since when?

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

What the hell? Who unlocked them? Since when?

Nvm, I just asked if they were locked or not.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Casually stomping three characters whose PL are above 20,000 and 30,000 should be more than enough to scale to a PL 32,000 character. Plus, again, Nail was stated to be a good soldier for Freeza with a power level of 40,000. So it's safe to assume his elites are around that level

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Casually stomping three characters whose PL are above 20,000 and 30,000 should be more than enough to scale to a PL 32,000 character. Plus, again, Nail was stated to be a good soldier for Freeza with a power level of 40,000. So it's safe to assume his elites are around that level

The Ginyu Force were pretty much stated to be the Frieza Force's Top Soldiers, so scaling them above KK4 Saiyan Saga Goku should be ok

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fixed some details and typos.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Can this thread be closed and the profiles be unlocked for the changes as of now?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Why does Vegeta Saga Saiyan have a speed of 2.292c?

• Goku effortlessly blitzed Nappa in base form, and was able was able to match Vegeta's power in Kaioken x3. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.7455c and 19.82 Zettatons. Side note, could have upgraded him to > 7.64c based on the 10 g's training and him mentioning he's at least 10x stronger and faster.
• Kaioken x2 makes him >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.491cc and 39.64 Zettatons.
• Kaioken x3 makes him >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.2365c and 59.44 Zettatons.
• Kaioken x4 makes him >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.982c and 79.28 Zettatons.
• Vegeta blitzed Kaioken x2 Goku, kept up with Kaioken x3 matching Galick Gun with Kamahameha, and withstood the Kaioken x4 Kamahameha at point blank. Galick Gun can destroy the planet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.292c and 59.44 Zettatons. Also scales to Cui