God Tier Upgrade: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

[GreatIskandar14045]

It said... what I just posted

Its not a wrong comparison. His drills can tunnel through reality and the above LN passage states it did so. So its a teleportation/wormhole feat not a speed feat.

And where does this conclusion that drill means teleportation or spatial warping ability came from? The thing you're missing here is, that in episode 23 GL only used its drill to create a spiral portal (or say, wormhole) before travelling within it by itself, it even came out from the portal with exactly no drill at all, which makes this GL came with drill after Nia's ring as a false equivalence, so yeah this comparison is rather baseless and invalid.

You have to prove your assumption that drilling through multiverse here means GL teleporting from universe to universe.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's basically as if you go to one edge of the universe, break through the wall

Then its a space-time manipulation feat and still not indicative of their speed

You have to prove your assumption that drilling through multiverse

I have. Your own source states he drilled through the multiverse with the LN. Considering we know that teleportation, worm holes, and opening portals through space-time are powers he has there's far more weight that he used any of them to get team Dai Gurren rather than use Immeasurable speed.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Anyways, we should just agree that there is consideration that there is a possibility of them having infinite speed

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I have. Your own source states he drilled through the multiverse with the LN. Considering we know that teleportation, worm holes, and opening portals through space-time are powers he has there's far more weight that he used any of them to get team Dai Gurren rather than use Immeasurable speed.

It was never stated directly on that way. Contextually speaking, it could means that either GL's speed drills the barrier of the space-time one by one in the multiverse, "breaking the walls", much more appropriate than assuming it create one portal whenever it reach one's end of a universe one by one which perhaps, done infinitely more times. GL's drill basically can do almost anything so assuming any of them without providing strong evidence is not my burden of proof. Also, this had nothing to do with Immeasuarable thingy lol.

 

[Qawsedf234]

we should just agree that there is consideration

Sure. They can have it for their High 1-C keys.

It was never stated directly on that way.

What. It literally was

「ドリルが多元宇宙の壁を突き破っていた。リーロン、ダヤッカ、ギミー、ダリー…、超銀河グレンラガンのクルー達が囚われていた認識宇宙を緑色に輝くドリルが次々に打ち砕いていく。」 Which says “The drill had broken through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... the green-glowing drills shattered one after another the cognitive universe in which the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped.”

The drill had broken through the walls of the multiverse.

The drill

It states that his drill is what tunneled through the labyrinth, not his speed moving from universe to universe.

Contextually speaking, it could means GL's speed drills the barrier of the space-time one by one in the multiverse. GL's drill basically can do almost anything so assuming any of them without providing strong evidence is not my burden of proof.

What requires less assumptions

• The person with the ability to bend space-time and open portals used them to navigate through different universes
• The person with no examples of moving so fast they fly across different universes suddenly flew across different universes then never did so again

Also, this had nothing to do with Immeasuarable thingy lol.

Yes it does. This was one of OP's major claims for infinite speed after the infinite energy argument was contested.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

What. It literally was

It states that his drill is what tunneled through the labyrinth, not his speed moving from universe to universe.

And where does this conclusion that drill means teleportation or spatial warping ability came from?

It could means that either GL's speed drills the barrier of the space-time one by one in the multiverse, "breaking the walls", much more appropriate than assuming it create one portal whenever it reach one's end of a universe one by one which perhaps, done infinitely more times.

GL's drill basically can do almost anything so assuming any of them without providing strong evidence is not my burden of proof.

What requires less assumptions

• The person with the ability to bend space-time and open portals used them to navigate through different universes

Totally different mech.

• The person with no examples of moving so fast they fly across different universes suddenly flew across different universes then never did so again

Simon's Spiral Power already did that when it fused the universes into Simon's drill, also.

It could means that either GL's speed drills the barrier of the space-time one by one in the multiverse, "breaking the walls", much more appropriate than assuming it create one portal whenever it reach one's end of a universe one by one which perhaps, done infinitely more times (2).

 

[BluudyManikin777]

This was one of OP's major claims for infinite speed after the infinite energy argument was contested

I wasn't trying to propose Immeasurable Speed

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Yes it does. This was one of OP's major claims for infinite speed after the infinite energy argument was contested.

And you're dealing with me, not the OP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And you're dealing with me

Fine we'll stop here.

If more people agree with the proposals besides me I can unlock everything for you to edit Bluudy.

 

[Breakdown]

The drill is attached to the mecha. If it breaks through the walls of the multiverse it follows that the mecha did, too. Like, if I put on a gauntlet and used that to punch a hole in the wall, you could still say I did it.

Teleportation doesn't make any sense here. Why would Simon break through the multiverse to teleport? Teleportation is instant travel. That's very backwards and counterintuitive thinking.

Timepsace manipulation doesn't make sense really because he's just attacking then moving. I have no idea how normal movement counts as hax and that's what context supports here.

Occam's Razor is entirely in favor of travel.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like, if I put on a gauntlet and used that to punch a hole in the wall, you could still say I did it.

Yeah. But if you used a gauntlet that allows you to punch a hole in space-time to jump to another universe you don't call it a speed feat.

Why would Simon break through the multiverse to teleport?

He's drilling through the multiverse to get team Dai Gurren. He has to travel across the multiverse labyrinth to assemble his team again.

Occam's Razor is entirely in favor of travel.

Occam's Razor says the man with a drill that can open up portals to other spaces used said drill to open portals to other spaces to gather his team. Which the LN backs.

What it doesn't back is that Simon exceeded the speed of infinity to break universal barriers to gather anyone, which is what Isk's point would be.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yeah. But if you used a gauntlet that allows you to punch a hole in space-time to jump to another universe you don't call it a speed feat.

The drill isn't something that holds the power, it's something that Simon himself creates. The drill does those things because of Simon

What it doesn't back is that Simon exceeded the speed of infinity to break universal barriers to gather anyone, which is what Isk's point would be.

My argument wasn't that Simon travelled an infinite distance to breakthrough a universal wall, the argument was the he traversed an infinite Multiverse with just speed

 

[Qawsedf234]

The drill isn't something that holds the power, it's something that Simon himself creates

I get that, but, the drill is what is allow Simon to move to different universes. He's using the drill to essentially move himself through the labyrinth. Its more akin to a portal feat than a speed feat.

infinite Multiverse with just speed

He used his drill to tunnel through reality, not speed. Its a hax feat not a speed feat.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

He used his drill to tunnel through reality, not speed. Its a hax feat not a speed feat.

I'm just saying, that was my original argument, it wasn't because he travelled to the edge of the universe or some bullshit like that

 

[Qawsedf234]

Oh I get you now

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Here are two possible scenarios:

1. Simon used his drill to tunnel through reality (similarly like how GL created wormhole or SGGL used its dimensional transportation via Spiral Radar), however, in order to do this feat he had to do it over and over again which requires many, many times of attempt, even possibly infinitely more times from one universe to another universe. It couldn't possibly be done on a single time because his friends in the parallel universes saw him travelling on the sky. So basically warp -> save his friends -> warp again to another universe.
2. Simon crushes from one universe to another universe, breaking through the walls of the multiverse via sheer speed alone or say, travelling, like how we see Simon flew into the sky and arrives on another universes a few moments later. This requires no multiple times of attempt to do so since all he need to is travel.

I believe the first scenario holds on bigger assumption, anyway this is the full quote:

"The drill broke through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... The green-shining drill was crushes one after another the cognitive universe where the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped."

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Basically, the way he does it is by flying directly into portal after portal to get to universe to universe. Since its an infinite multiverse, Simon has to get an "At least Massively FTL+, at most Infinite" Since he does explicitly go from one universe to a neighboring universe, at most an infinite number of times

 

[Qawsedf234]

I believe the first scenario holds on bigger assumption

It doesn't because we scale Simon to a 4.851e+41x FTL feat. What does that mean? It means that he would be able to fly from one edge of the universe to another in 0.06 yoctoseconds. As long as he can sense spiral energy; him locating his friends doesn't require infinite speed because he's already fast as all hell.

I believe the first scenario holds on bigger assumption

Its 100% scenario two that has a bigger assumption.

 

[Sus]

It doesn't because we scale Simon to a 4.851e+41x FTL feat. What does that mean? It means that he would be able to fly from one edge of the universe to another in 0.06 yoctoseconds. As long as he can sense spiral energy him locating his friends he doesn't need infinite speed because he's already fast as all hell.

can u link me the feats

 

[Qawsedf234]

can u link me the feats

TTGL: Planck Time Coefficient

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

It doesn't because we scale Simon to a 4.851e+41x FTL feat. What does that mean? It means that he would be able to fly from one edge of the universe to another in 0.06 yoctoseconds. As long as he can sense spiral energy him locating his friends he doesn't need infinite speed because he's already fast as all hell.

The assumption is how we assume that he did, warped himself within the multiverse many, many times, if not infinitely more times from one to another universe when it is never even implied. Which means any timeframe arguments are empirically unnecessary.

Simon goes from one universe to another universe with his green-shining drill (like the quote) and yet, we see it travelling not... warping at all.

I just don't ******* understand why would we assume he used warp or "tunneling" when the quote literally said that he "crushes" and "breaking through" the walls of the multiverse aka space-time barriers...? Spatial warping ain't breaking/crushing space, it just warp you to another place, we already saw how Simon flies as a "green vortex of light" aka the thing that allows him to do physical dimensional travel on the multiverse, so he use no skill nor hax to get himself to another spacetime continuum. The arguments from the opposite really, is reliant on assuming that "drill to another universe" contextually is the same as GL used its drill to create a wormhole, GL didn't even came out from the portal with drill, in the contrary to GL from Nia's ring so at this point, it's just reaching and insisting that they are the same thing. Sounds forcing as hell.

 

[Sus]

TTGL: Planck Time Coefficient

vsbattles.fandom.com

what about this one

 

[BluudyManikin777]

what about this one

We could use that for the sake of consistent Massively FTL+ feats, but we have currently accepted that Spiral Power determines speed. Simon having more Spiral Power than SGGL, he at least upscales

 

[Qawsedf234]

what about this one

They'd be able to cross the universe in 0.116 seconds.

I just don't ******* understand why would we assume he used warp or "tunneling" when the quote literally said that he "crushes" and "breaking through" the walls of the multiverse aka space-time barriers...?

That's literally tunneling.

tun·nel

verb
gerund or present participle: tunneling

1. 1.
   dig or force a passage underground or through something.
   "he tunneled under the fence"
   
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   PHYSICS
   (of a particle) pass through a potential barrier.

His tunneling through the walls of the universe to get to the next one.

Sounds forcing as hell.

You're just misunderstanding how portal creation and space-time manipulation works.

 

[Sus]

We could use that for the sake of consistent Massively FTL+ feats, but we have currently accepted that Spiral Power determines speed. Simon having more Spiral Power than SGGL, he at least upscales

is there no calc for STTGL, upscaling from SGGL only is kinda, extremely low

 

[BluudyManikin777]

is there no calc for STTGL, upscaling from SGGL only is kinda, extremely low

10^41 is a really high result for a MFTL+ calc, and the scaling chain would make Simon 10^44

That's literally tunneling. His tunneling through the walls of the universe to get to the next one.

He's flying through portals, which lead to a universe, and goes through another portal. He infinitely flies through infinite portals to get to his friends in an infinite Multiverse. That should be At most Infinite Speed

 

[Qawsedf234]

That should be At most Infinite Speed

Not when both he and they can sense Spiral Power and just follow it to the source. As I said I'm fine with your adjust proposal of possibly universal. But if "At most infinite" will solve the issue then sure, that's a fine middle ground even if I don't entirely agree with it. Though I'd be on the basis of the Spiral Energy scaling rather than Labyrinth feat in my view.

 

[Sus]

10^41 is a really high result for a MFTL+ calc, and the scaling chain would make Simon 10^44

He's flying through portals, which lead to a universe, and goes through another portal. He infinitely flies through infinite portals to get to his friends in an infinite Multiverse. That should be At most Infinite Speed

yeah too fast, but a calculation for STTGL would be astronomically higher and more accurate, am i right?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Wait, doesn't "At least MFTL+, At most Infinite implies they downscale from Infinite" speed? I don't think that's how At most works.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wait, doesn't "At least MFTL+, At most Infinite implies they downscale from Infinite" speed?

Maybe?

At most​

Should be used to denote the higher cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate.

I guess likely or possibly infinite is overall a better fit

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

They'd be able to cross the universe in 0.116 seconds.

And?

That's literally tunneling. His tunneling through the walls of the universe to get to the next one.

And what implied he is "tunelling" but your comparison to the prior mechs?

You're just misunderstanding how portal creation and space-time manipulation works.

He flies as a green light, the green light is what allowed him to move from one universe to another. So I don't know what the hell am I missing here, not only what we saw on the scene is just Simon flying around, but saying that he didn't use the green vortex of light which flies him to the void but instead, "tunelling" with space-time manipulation is a one bigger assumption.

And yes, Simon's drill already fused an infinitely many universes into his drill, so why can't I make the same game as yours that it is "travel" based on what the drill did literally just a few moment ago?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out @Qawsedf234 and @DarkDragonMedeus .

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

And what implied he is "tunelling"

The Light Novel you brought up originally. It said he drilled through the universes and the other terminology used again supports the idea that he breached the barriers with his drill. Its not a speed feat, its a hax feat. I don't know how you're not getting my point.

So I don't know what the hell am I missing here

He used the drill to go to different universes and then found his allies with his ability to detect Spiral Energy. Its not complicated.

that it is "travel" based on what the drill did literally just a few moment ago?

Because it requires less assumption that he used powers we know he has to find people vs gaining speed he has no supporting evidence of.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think that we should do here?

Apply the changes currently suggested in the OP, besides the Boota one and Simon being transonic, and close the thread.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I guess likely or possibly infinite is overall a better fit

I think At most Infinite would be better. As we've established, Simon travels from universe to neighboring universe, and how he does that is through creating portals, which he has to fly through. Considering that Simon would have to fly essentially an infinite distance, as he at most flies through infinite portals; Simon would have at most infinite

 

[Qawsedf234]

Considering that Simon would have to fly essentially an infinite distance, as he at most flies through infinite portals; Simon would have at most infinite

This would just be "MFTL+, likely/possibly Infinite [Reasonings given]". At most has a different usage on the wiki from what I see.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

At most is for downscaling things by an unknown amount. Unless we are taking the Infinite thing as fully legit, then there's no reason to use At most, as that implies downscaling from Infinite speed. Possibly or Likely is more appropriate.

For instance: Character A can fight Character B (Who is 4-A) but is still somewhat weaker, therefore, Character A is At most 4-A

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

snip

They drilled through the universes doesn't equate to they used some space hax to "tunneling" just like the prior scenes such as GL's wormhole or SGGL's dimensional transport, because Simon and his friends are the drills themselves it's not an ability.

They are the drills, they manifested themselves as drills upon integrating themselves with the spirit of the multiverse, breaking through the wall. This reasoning is why they gained Type 2 Acausality at the first place.

"Nia entered the cockpit of the Lagann, along with Simon. Each Lagann merged into Gurren Lagann. It was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of. The feelings that each of us had in our respective universes appeared in the form of a drill, breaking through the wall. It was appearing in the form of two shapes and sizes, and they became one. If you have no choice but to fight, do not hesitate. We are not afraid to ask for power. If there's a wall, we'll hit and break it, if there's no way, we'll make it with our own hands! No, more. Breaks through cause, effect and fate, the cry of life resounds in the galaxy yet, more. Engrave the feelings of a friend in this body, and turn infinite darkness into light! -That's it. A power greater than the stars, greater than the galaxies. A power greater than dimension and time."

Simon as a Gurren Lagann, a vortex of light, the same goes as his friends.

The other members of the Team Dai-Gurren who were behind him nodded. Simon turns his back. Simon's appearances spread out across the entire space. It's Simon's appearances spread out in a multiverse of possibilities for each possible appearance. But the core drill shines in Simon's chest. and his left arm becomes Gurren Lagann's. A drill appears from there. That drill spins rapidly. The drill engulfs Simons in the multiverse, turning him into a vortex of light. Simon "Let's go, buddy." In that glow, Simon transforms into Gurren Lagann's form and flies off into the void."

Then they crosses the space-time of the multiverse with the green-shining drills or say, as themselves.

"The drill broke through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... The green-shining drill was crushes one after another the cognitive universe where the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped."

We already saw the green lights are just flying, we know that the drills are themselves and the green-shining drills are the ones that broke through the walls of the multiverse. If it isn't already obvious.
The counter-arguments are just assumptions since there is nothing indicates that it is a space-time manipulation.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

besides the Boota one and Simon being transonic

Which Boota one? And Simon Post-Multiverse Labyrinth hasn't mastered Spiral Power yet, so he can't use it to become that fast on his own, he's at least MFTLL+ after he mastered Spiral Power

 

[Qawsedf234]

Which Boota one

Replacing the High 1-C stat with a 3-A one. Someone earlier was against it.

We already saw the green lights are flying, and we know the drills are themselves and the green-shining drills are the ones that broke through the walls of the multiverse. If it isn't already obvious.

The full context of the LN just makes it that much clearer that it isn't a speed feat. It's hax that doesn't support that they have infinite speed.