God Tier Upgrade: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

[BluudyManikin777]

Okay so what’s the consensus? Pretty sure the only thing being accepted is anything but the speed. But if the Speed isn’t determined by Spiral Power, then we’d have to put characters like Simon and Anti-Spiral at Transonic, and that’s just wrong on so many levels, and everyone would disagree with that. It’s either they get Infinite Speed via having infinite amounts of Spiral Power, or they’re Subsonic with Transonic Combat Speed/Reactions because greater Spiral Power doesn’t translate to speed, there’s no in between. And there’s this thing where infinite Spiral Power isn’t being accepted (even though it implies in the light novel), because becoming more powerful than something that’s already infinite is apparently an Anti-Feat. But applying this type of logic to TTGL, would have to apply this to every other verse who are beyond anything already infinite, because they are beyond the baseline of say 2-A and whatnot. It’s fiction, it should be allowed to be nonsensical

 

[Qawsedf234]

You're being extra sensitive.

No, you're being overly harsh. Keep things civil.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. But if the Speed isn’t determined by Spiral Power

You're missing the point there. No one denied or attempted to deny that they get faster with more Spiral Energy. The point is that having more Spiral Energy isn't evidence of infinite without more to it. Which is why I and others aren't for it.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

You're missing the point there. No one denied or attempted to deny that they get faster with more Spiral Energy. The point is that having more Spiral Energy isn't evidence of infinite without more to it. Which is why I and others aren't for it.

Why is it not enough evidence? I might as well just propose “Unknown, likely Infinite” because their Spiral Power aren’t in finite values

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why is it not enough evidence?

Because they don't have a statement or hard showing, but scaling off of a proposed idea that runs contradictory to the other rthread proposal as I mentioned before.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Then they should be “At least Massively FTL+, likely Infinite”

 

[RisingIons]

No, you're being overly harsh. Keep things civil.

That wasn’t being harsh. I’ve reported far worse treatment that’s been ignored by all levels of staff. But anywho.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm extremely iffy on using the Infinite Energy thing to justify Infinite speed. Even if that was trying to translate to RL, infinite energy would only reach the speed of light. That and Infinite speed especially something that requires actual feats and/or lore statements that characters move so fast that all time is frozen and what not. Reaching infinite speed through sheer stacking of more energy = more speed is pretty stretchy.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I'm extremely iffy on using the Infinite Energy thing to justify Infinite speed. Even if that was trying to translate to RL, infinite energy would only reach the speed of light. That and Infinite speed especially something that requires actual feats and/or lore statements that characters move so fast that all time is frozen and what not. Reaching infinite speed through sheer stacking of more energy = more speed is pretty stretchy.

It’s shown in episode 3 that greater amounts of Spiral Power (or the energy of the verse) that Gurren Lagann is able to keep up with Enki, via Kamina’s Spiral Power combining with Simon. If Spiral Power doesn’t equate to greater speed, Simon and the Anti-Spiral would have to be downgraded to Transonic. Because as it is currently accepted, Simon is faster than STTGL and TTGL via powerscaling, and is more powerful than them via having greater Spiral Power. So Simon and Anti-Spiral would only be greater in AP than them, and not faster than them. If Infinite Speed via Spiral Power isn’t accepted, I’m proposing Simon and Anti-Spiral be put at Transonic, because it would be very inconsistent if this was quite literally the only exception

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not what I meant, they do have consistent Massively FTL+ speed feats. And I did agree with the "Higher Power level equals higher speed" in the form of character A being stronger than character B. But the part I wasn't okay with is like going from Massively FTL+ all the way to Infinite speed through sheer multipliers or "Infinite Energy" statements and nothing else.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That's not what I meant, they do have consistent Massively FTL+ speed feats. And I did agree with the "Higher Power level equals higher speed" in the form of character A being stronger than character B. But the part I wasn't okay with is like going from Massively FTL+ all the way to Infinite speed through sheer multipliers or "Infinite Energy" statements and nothing else.

There’s also Simon flying through the Multiverse to save the rest of Team Dai-Gurren; the Multiverse being an infinite Multiverse, so there’s that. If Infinite Speed isn’t being accepted, the only other thing I’m accepting is Transonic. Because accepting speed as proportionate to Spiral Power, and then saying they can’t have infinite speed even though they have infinite amounts of this energy, would be inconsistent, and inconsistency is really not what we would want here

 

[Qawsedf234]

There’s also Simon flying through the Multiverse to save the rest of Team Dai-Gurren

We went over this in your last thread about a speed upgrade. Simon didn't physically move around to save them, but used an ability to pinpoint and teleport to them.

I’m accepting is Transonic.

That doesn't make sense, as they have legitimate and consistent MFTL+ showings. Not having evidence for infinite speed isn't the same as them being transonic.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

We went over this in your last thread about a speed upgrade. Simon didn't physically move around to save them, but used an ability to pinpoint and teleport to them

The Light Novel says, in the moment where Simon flies to the other universes of the Multiverse, that he broke through the walls of the Multiverse with his drill. On page 269 towards the end of the page it says 「ドリルが多元宇宙の壁を突き破っていた。リーロン、ダヤッカ、ギミー、ダリー…、超銀河グレンラガンのクルー達が囚われていた認識宇宙を緑色に輝くドリルが次々に打ち砕いていく。」 Which says “The drill had broken through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... the green-glowing drills shattered one after another the cognitive universe in which the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped.” This isn’t teleportation, it’s telling us that Simon is breaking through the walls of the Multiverse to get around to the universes his friends are

That doesn't make sense, as they have legitimate and consistent MFTL+ showings. Not having evidence for infinite speed isn't the same as them being transonic.

No, that’s with his Gunmen. He himself hasn’t shown anything like that

 

[Qawsedf234]

This isn’t teleportation, it’s telling us that Simon is breaking through the walls of the Multiverse to get around to the universes his friends are

Yes, with spiral search to locate them. Also it is teleportation, since its the same thing we saw earlier with GL and SGGL using drills to teleport to other places.

No, that’s with his Gunmen.

That doesn't work when he fights the Anti-Spiral who tagged his Gunmen immediately before their fight.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yes, with spiral search to locate them. Also it is teleportation, since its the same thing we saw earlier with GL and SGGL using drills to teleport to other places.

Gurren Lagann created a portal by blasting one open from its head, and SGGL has never used a drill to teleport. The Light Novel is telling us that Gurren Lagann is going through different parts of the universe in a different way. It shouldn’t be assumed it’s because of teleportation, since the mechanics of Gurren Lagann’s multiversal travel are described different. And this is the only time shown where Gurren Lagann travels through different universes by actually using a drill

That doesn't work when he fights the Anti-Spiral who tagged his Gunmen immediately before their fight.

That was in Lagann, who’s High Hypersonic, I’m talking about TTGL and STTGL and whatnot

 

[Qawsedf234]

That was in Lagann, who’s High Hypersonic

That was Post-Apotheosis Lagann who would scale up from TTGL or SGGL.

Anyways this is just retreading ground we already covered. AP up to 960x is fine imo, speed isn't.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That was Post-Apotheosis Lagann who would scale up from TTGL or SGGL.

No, because Spiral Power level doesn’t equal speed

If it truly is accepted, Spiral Power amounts equaling speed would apply to EVERYTHING. If there’s only one exception, then that’s just not truly accepting it

Simon has infinite Spiral Power, and the amount translates to Speed. Simon has even broken through the walls of the Multiverse to save his friends, the Multiverse which is infinite. There isn’t just the Spiral Power = Speed argument

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, because Spiral Power level doesn’t equal speed

I have no idea why you keep saying that. Everyone agrees that more spiral power equals more speed, but that isn't justification for infinite.

If there’s only one exception

Its not an exception, its just not how our speed system works.

Simon has even broken through the walls of the Multiverse to save his friends

With an ability, not with speed. We went over this in your last thread.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I have no idea why you keep saying that. Everyone agrees that more spiral power equals more speed, but that isn't justification for infinite.

Making this literally the only exception, doesn’t really look like acceptance to me. I’m serious, if infinite isn’t accepted, I’d rather have Simon and Anti-Spiral be Transonic, rather than Massively FTL+

Its not an exception, its just not how our speed system works.

So for someone to be accepted as being able to go this fast, the writer has to be REALLY specific or just straight up? Implications are just not allowed at all? Authors don’t like writing stories where they’re like “x can travel this fast!” That’s just not good writing, although maybe there are some that can make it work, most of the time, it doesn’t work, so they don’t do that

With an ability, not with speed. We went over this in your last thread

How do you know it’s with an ability? It doesn’t tell us directly that it’s teleportation. It was described differently than the other teleportation showings

 

[Rez]

Infinite and immeasurable speed requires actual speed feats

 

[Rez]

I agree with everything else though

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Infinite and immeasurable speed requires actual speed feats

The Light Novel says Simon traversed an Infinite Multiverse to save his friends by breaking through the walls of the Multiverse

 

[Qawsedf234]

he Light Novel says Simon traversed an Infinite Multiverse to save his friends by breaking through the walls of the Multiverse

With an ability.

How do you know it’s with an ability?

Because using a drill to break through universal barriers isn't really a speed feat. Especially with a location power at their disposal

So for someone to be accepted as being able to go this fast, the writer has to be REALLY specific or just straight up?

Yes.

Thanatos: Immeasurable (Immortals can move through the Emerald River, the physically embodiment of time with extreme ease. Immortals are beyond time and are utterly immune to spells like timestop, even when cast by stronger beings. Immortal level combat takes place in no time at all.)

Flash: Massively FTL+ (Ran along with the Big Bang[20]) Higher with kinetic energy transfer (Reset every radio on earth in a few zeptoseconds[21]), Up to Infinite with Speed Force amplification (Using Jesse Quick's connection to the Speed Force, Wally became so fast that time did not move from his perspective, and he proceeded to fight Zoom in his locked time[22]), Immeasurable via running through time, the Speed Force, and using the Fourth Dimension

Benetnash: Infinite (Infinitely faster than infinity)

Ruphas Mafahl: Massively FTL (Flew to Venus in a second), Infinite with Alnasl (Alnasl is a skill which once fired, it will hit in the next instant, in other words there is no process between firing and hitting. It ignores causality and instantaneously moves to hit the target. It also bypasses the concept of space-time)

I'm decently sure everyone with Immeasurable or Infinite speed has a hard statement or feat behind it. Rather than a layer of power scaling with no hard evidence.

 

[Rez]

The Light Novel says Simon traversed an Infinite Multiverse to save his friends by breaking through the walls of the Multiverse

This was already discussed in an previous crt

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Could they at least get a “At least Massively FTL+, likely Infinite”? It’s not solid evidence, but there’s still something that says it could be the case

 

[Qawsedf234]

Giving them at least MFTL+ if they don't already have it is fine. Infinite I'm still not seeing as a likely designation.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Giving them at least MFTL+ if they don't already have it is fine. Infinite I'm still not seeing as a likely designation.

What about possibly if the likely hood isn’t really in favor?

 

[Qawsedf234]

More of a thread choice I guess

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I'll edit the proposal into the OP, that way it'll be easier for other staff members

 

[BluudyManikin777]

bump

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I'm genuinely lost here. But infinite Spiral Power isn't High 3-A, it's High 1-C. Spiral Power shaped and magnifies everything in the verse, it can even cause a major catastrophic event that devour the entire multiverse called as the "Spiral Nemesis", which said scene on episode 26 refered the verse itself as "The Universe" by the Anti-Spiral (and the rest too, actually).

Because "The Universe" by its primary definition means all existence aka everything that exist.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I'm genuinely lost here. But infinite Spiral Power isn't High 3-A, it's High 1-C. Spiral Power shaped and magnifies everything in the verse, it can even cause a major catastrophic event that devour the entire multiverse called as the "Spiral Nemesis", which said scene on episode 26 refered the verse itself as "The Universe" by the Anti-Spiral (and the rest too, actually).

Because "The Universe" by its primary definition means all existence aka everything that exist.

But what are your thoughts on everything in the OP?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Actually, I'll give a good read about this later (I skimmed it).

But one thing, Simon traversed the multiverse by GL with sheer speed, yes, sheer speed. GL doesn't have higher technology like SGGL which allow it to located another points of space-time or dimensions that are already observed due to some probability ***** via Spiral Radar, the novel also quite straightforwardly stated that it "broke the wall of the multiverse one by one". It ain't wormhole as well since there's nothing suggest that it created a spiral portal with its drill upon travelling to another universes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nothing suggest that it created spiral portal with his drill

According to the source provided earlier, it literally did say so

「ドリルが多元宇宙の壁を突き破っていた。リーロン、ダヤッカ、ギミー、ダリー…、超銀河グレンラガンのクルー達が囚われていた認識宇宙を緑色に輝くドリルが次々に打ち砕いていく。」 Which says “The drill had broken through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... the green-glowing drills shattered one after another the cognitive universe in which the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped.”

GL also appears from Nina's ring right afterwards with its drill. Everything given to us previously in the series and according to the above LN passage is implying its a drill based tunneling feat them some Digimon style shennigans.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

So is everything suggested in the OP fine or not

 

[Qawsedf234]

Boota is probably just High 1-C like the rest. If people are okay with the potential infinite rating then yeah.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

According to the source provided earlier, it literally did say so

It did say what? Your scans are totally non-sequitur since it only applied to SGGL which has something GL doesn't, the Spiral Wave Detection Monitor. If you're talking about that wormhole stuff or something like in the episode 23, you have to prove that GL did the same way by creating spiral portal with a drill on its head.

GL also appears from Nina's ring right afterwards with its drill. Everything given to us previously in the series and according to the above LN passage is implying its a drill based tunneling feat them some Digimon style shennigans.

GL appeared with a drill on its hand, not head. Sorry but wrong comparison.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Boota is probably just High 1-C like the rest

Post-Multiverse Labyrinth Boota? HE wasn't shown to be given any upgrades in strength. Just abilities. So he's a higher dimensional being with 3D power. He was stated to be given the same power as Simon AFTER TTGL's creation

 

[Qawsedf234]

It did say what?

It said... what I just posted

「ドリルが多元宇宙の壁を突き破っていた。リーロン、ダヤッカ、ギミー、ダリー…、超銀河グレンラガンのクルー達が囚われていた認識宇宙を緑色に輝くドリルが次々に打ち砕いていく。」 Which says “The drill had broken through the walls of the multiverse. Leeron, Dayakka, Gimmy, Darry... the green-glowing drills shattered one after another the cognitive universe in which the crew of the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann were trapped.”

The LN backs my previous point of it being teleportation.

If you're talking about that wormhole stuff or something like in the episode 23, you have to prove that GL did the same way by creating spiral portal with a drill on its head.

GL appeared with a drill on its hand, not head. Sorry but wrong comparison.

Its not a wrong comparison. His drills can tunnel through reality and the above LN passage states it did so. So its a teleportation/wormhole feat not a speed feat.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Its not a wrong comparison. His drills can tunnel through reality and the above LN passage states it did so. So its a teleportation/wormhole feat not a speed feat.

The Multiverse is basically implied to have walls that separate two alternate universes. It's basically as if you go to one edge of the universe, break through the wall that separates them, and end up on the edge of another universe