- 15,920
- 2,694
I know that, but there's absolutely no basis to RtZ being massively faster than GER, so if something has to be scaled to MiH's top speed, then it would be GER itself, not its hax.
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I mean, it goes both ways too unfortunately, there's nothing indicating they're the same either.I know that, but there's absolutely no basis to RtZ being massively faster than GER, so if something has to be scaled to MiH's top speed, then it would be GER itself, not its hax.
That's not even close to the best solution. From where did you take that? Do we need to repeat for the 10th time that the infinite speed rating is something solid, and not a possibility?So it seems like the best solution we could get to is:
"At least MFTL physically, possibly/likely Infinite with RTZ"
If there isn't enough evidence to say that it is 100% infinite speed without a doubt, but there is a strong possibility or likelihood of it, then this solution could work. Although I have to admit I'm not an expert when it comes to classifying infinite levels of speed, especially when it's concerning just abilities and their activation speeds.
Could the people who are against the infinite speed for RTZ explain why this solution wouldn't work?
I wasn't here for the 9 times this was stated previously.That's not even close to the best solution. From where did you take that? Do we need to repeat for the 10th time that the infinite speed rating is something solid, and not a possibility?
Then at least try to read some of the arguments before commenting? That's why CRT are created, that's why arguments are made. Read them before, and then, give your opinionI wasn't here for the 9 times this was stated previously.
Try to count the votes and read the arguments. You'll see that Chariot already took care of the arguments against infinite speedI'm just trying to help this come to a close since the discussion has carried on for hundreds of posts now and there clearly doesn't seem to be a consensus about what the rating should be.
Could the people who are against the infinite speed for RTZ explain why this solution wouldn't work?
It is. "Possibly" or "likely" would be against all the statements and what GER itself is. That would also create a "possibility" for GER to be defeated by Made In Heaven, and that's not possible.If the Infinite speed is indisputable, then yes: "At least MFTL physically, Infinite with RTZ" could be fine. This isn't far off from what I stated anyway...
I think: At Least MFTL, Likely Higher. Infinite with RTZ.If the Infinite speed is indisputable, then yes: "At least MFTL physically, Infinite with RTZ" could be fine. This isn't far off from what I stated anyway...
Well, the reason for that could be the fact that Made in Heaven does not start at infinite speed. It's something that it needs to build up to, and RTZ would just stop it before it could get close to infinite levels of speed. Presumably.It is. "Possibly" or "likely" would be against all the statements and what GER itself is. That would also create a "possibility" for GER to be defeated by Made In Heaven, and that's not possible.
that Made in Heaven does not start at infinite speed.
Read. The. Arguments. Please.Well, the reason for that could be the fact that Made in Heaven does not start at infinite speed. It's something that it needs to build up to, and RTZ would just stop it before it could get close to infinite levels of speed. Presumably.
This isn't an argument either way, I'm just saying that "It's impossible for Made in Heaven to beat Gold Experience Requiem" isn't just dependent on speed.
Well, aside from exceptions most normal just make the matter more chaotic and are pretty unreliable, a bunch of staff being called in a less long thread could make them keep up with it and ideally allow them to participate. But yes they likely won't do so with that given to them due to being busy as of now.Dude drop the staff only shit, I hope you realize that other then like Efi and Dargoo, the most well versed and most qualified users to give input are normal users.
Add onto that that every staff member that's knowledgeable is already here or busy, making a whole new thread just to say the same shit over again while also making it so numerous users who are more than qualified to take part in this conversation which are already here bar one singular person cant actually partake if it now, all making anew thread, not even staff, simply a new thread at all, is a complete waste of time moreso then what we already wasted. Everyone who should take place in this debate is already here bar two users, maybe three, and one is busy and one is MIA, nothing we can do about that.
Huh that's a new one, nice taste.Doctor Doom
What do you disagree with?disagree fra
There's effectively two speeds we're talking about here. One is GER's physical speed and the other is the activation speed of RtZ (Technically they both are GER's speed). I feel like only the activation speed of RtZ has any grounds to be infinite/possibly infinite/unknown (for A. activating in erased time and B. for being qualitatively superior to BIG and MiH) because physically GER simply scales as >>> KCI mean, yes, given your answer to my last argument, GER itself should be Infinite via scaling MiH's top speed, there's no reason to give RtZ a different rating when there's nothing showing it so ridiculously faster than GER.
I'm still not sold on RtZ being infinite as an absolute given the context behind the nature of BiG and MiH reaching infinite speed is a roundabout way via hax only under certain circumstances, despite their rating which I am well aware of,
and the fact the statement for GERs "none" stat being superior is guide only
, so I would still choose RtZ as "possibly infinite", or a hax with no particular speed attached personally.
However I will say that GERs physical stats being mftl is agreed upon as acceptable by almost everybody here since the start, including me, so I would support mftl physically and RtZ being outright infinite before I supported his physical stats being outright infinite.
I know it has already been mentioned but it bears repeating that this isn't a great argument because the stand stats are written by Araki himself and part of the official canonthe statement for GERs "none" stat being superior is guide only
I'm still not sold on RtZ being infinite as an absolute given the context behind the nature of BiG and MiH reaching infinite speed is a roundabout way via hax only under certain circumstances
GERs "none" stat being superior is guide only
I would still choose RtZ as "possibly infinite", or a hax with no particular speed attached personally
Goes both ways unfortunately.Neither I see RtZ as faster than GER btw, simply because it's not true nor shown in manga.
Who says that isn't GER who didn't want to **** around with Diavolo to make him suffer? I mean, Giorno always did like thisGoes both ways unfortunately.
And given the conclusion reached is that RTZ kicked in when GER wasn't active within the time erase, there's already precedence, there's actually nothing indicating they have to be the same speed, or that they are at all.
Them being the same or them not being the same isn't said or implied for either, ergo, we just go on what we know and see and come to a conclusion based on the info and evidence we have.
If RTZ > GER, then that's the way it is and nothing says otherwise, it's unfortunate of course but if that's what the evidence suggests then that's how it has to be.
Rtz not being infinite speedWhat do you disagree with?
Who says that isn't GER who didn't want to **** around with Diavolo to make him suffer? I mean, Giorno always did like this
A question: when the JJBA Stats were reffering to just an ability and not the whole of the stand itself? Because you're talking like there were cases of when a single Stand Ability got stats all for itself, Stand Stats were reffering always to the Stand itself, and not to just an ability. And I'm not talking about cases as MiH or Black Sabbath where just a stat gets upgraded because of an ability, but of a single ablity getiing different stats from the Stand's base ones.Oh, he definitely did, GER definitely went out of his way to make Diavolo suffer, ****, Diavolo's end is literally a fate worse then death.
The issue is, if King Crimson tagged Giorno in Epitaph, then that makes GER being infinite a little sus and if the conclusion reached about the time scene is that GER couldn't act before RTZ kicked in, then unfortunately, we have evidence suggesting RTZ>GER and evidence saying while extremely high and still a hilariously above a God Tier in speed, GER itself isn't equal to RTZ and couple that with the stat having a very real possibility of referring to the ability speed and not GER physically...
Well, it's unfortunate but there's actual evidence in play to suggest they aren't the same and nothing to say they are indeed the same.
Though I don't agree with the Epitaph point, it's still a complaint of the opposition that isn't objectively false and the stat thing is a subjective interpretation that leans toward it being RTZ if the former of the Epitaph point is deemed true.
Uh, no it doesnt? Absolutely nothing says every single stat has to be talking about GER physically or RTZ completely, and we know, for an absolute fact that there has been multiple times before where a Stand's stats can talk about the Stand itself and the attributes of an ability in the EXACT SAME stat sheet, with some stats being about the stand itself and some referring to the ability's attributes.All of these examples are talking like a Stand Ability was worth to have a whole Stats section from itself separated from the Stand's, which is obviously untrue. Unless you show me a whole Stand ability which has all the 6 Stand Stats ratings different from the Stand (and not just 1/2), the None reffer to all the GER stats. That's even implied in the manga, and the databook just confirmed what None means, not that just RtZ has Stats and GER doesen't.
and the databook just confirmed what None means, not that just RtZ has Stats and GER doesen't.
The abilities that you're talking about are just affecting 2 stats, not the whole of them. Saying that RtZ has Stats completely different from GER's is one hell of an assumption, when no ability had all the 6 stats different from the stand.Uh, no it doesnt? Absolutely nothing says every single stat has to be talking about GER physically or RTZ completely, and we know, for an absolute fact that there has been multiple times before where a Stand's stats can talk about the Stand itself and the attributes of an ability in the EXACT SAME stat sheet, with some stats being about the stand itself and some referring to the ability's attributes.
You're acting like GER's stats have to be talking entirely about it, or entirely about the ability with no in-between, that's wrong, false and is complete conjecture, we know for a fact that doesn't have to be the case and absolutely nothing says it has to be, hell it's actually extremely common and how most Stands get rated, if anything it's actually basically undeniable that it's a mix of both in regards to GER based on his showings alone.
GER was called "The Ultimate Stand", so it can't be just RtZ being this much fast. GER being the ultimate stand implies that it's superior to any canon stand in any category, not just its Ability, is a contraddiction.Nobody said otherwise, of course GER itself has stats, but you're acting like it has to be GER or RTZ. It doesnt specify either or, we just know what it entails and as such some facet of him scales to the big *******, and the evidence tells us, that sadly, at least with speed in particular, that it's RTZ, of course this is open to interpretation on which it could be talking about for any particular stat and it's subjective, but when other evidence points toward an actual conclusion in this regard, that's when the issue arises.
Like it or not, there's a very real possibility that GER's speed stat could be talking about his ability's speed and not himself, we know for a fact this can happen, we know for a fact this can and has happened (even when other stats are about something physically) and we know for a fact that it can happen even if the other stats are talking about some of the Stand's physical attributes, and not even just for speed, that goes for any single stat in particular, some stands have their attack power rated a certain way due to their ability's power, not them physically, or the range, or the staying, etc. the fact we have an explicit hard confirmed example by the author himself explaining that he can and has rated a Stand's speed due to their ability's speed and not the Stand itself tells us that, it can happen and is likely the case here based on the other evidence at hand (I'd also wager that GER's Range and Permeance/Staying stat are about RTZ as well with the latter being extremely blatant).
And unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing in the manga, guides or anything saying that GER=RTZ, but at the same time we have evidence and showings implying the opposite, in that RTZ>GER.
Meaning, if there's evidence to suggest that GER itself isn't infinite (Epitaph scene), that RTZ is above GER itself (time erase scene), nothing in any material says they're the same or close to the same speed, and that there's a precedence and possibility that GER's upscaling for speed could be talking about the ability, not him, then unfortunately, most evidence suggests it's the ability that is upscaling off MIH and BIG and the like.
For this to even be an argument, you have to first explain why Epitaph's vision doesnt discredit GER itself, and have it be actually true with zero conjecture or assumptions, because as long as that point remains, we know that at the very least RTZ>GER.
Except that's not. That's a thing that you made and that's contraddicting how JJBA always worked about Stats.Like sorry dude, but everything we know is pointing toward the opposite and there's nothing to say it's the former.
The abilities that you're talking about are just affecting 2 stats, not the whole of them. Saying that RtZ has Stats completely different from GER's is one hell of an assumption, when no ability had all the 6 stats different from the stand.
GER was called "The Ultimate Stand", so it can't be just RtZ being this much fast. GER being the ultimate stand implies that it's superior to any canon stand in any category, not just its Ability, is a contraddiction.
Except that's not. That's a thing that you made and that's contraddicting how JJBA always worked about Stats.
You came here to try have GER keep infinite and now you kinda say otherwise from what you said earlier
Epitaph thing isnt a good example, King Crimson could have resumed time the moment his fist would be already be close enough to punch his heart,
he wouldnt resume it way too early and even if that was an "anti feat", it gets bunked when we see GER blitzing with two rushes
^This, GER blitzing Diavolo is kinda a supportive feat for its Infinite speed rating.
there's no ability faster than the Stand in JJBA.
Yes, that's what's been argued, GER was effected like everyone else till RTZ kicked in, before that, he was effected like everyone else. Only after RTZ acivated was GER able to act, according to Efi at least.Also GER wasnt affected by time erase, thats headcanon on whoever uses that, unless you wanna imply RTZ gets activated without GER doing it at all, let alone everyone was still under the time erase affect only GER and Diavolo were unaffected
So the conclusion out of this is GER pulled off RTZ during time erase before it was resuming back to kill Giorno
Also earlier i talked about the time erase too, none is present there physically, were told and shown about it, let alone if they were actually there, King Crimson could have just attacked them during it, yet he cant and its stated he cant attack as well in jojo a go go iirc