Genshin Impact GenRevs #02: Speed, Range and Other Stuff

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I think that everything in the OP seems uncontroversial, although you need to link to the justification blog and other evidence when applying it.

RatherClueless seemed to make good points above. It may be safer to not scale from lightning dodging then.

I think that this was where we left off.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

If you tell me which members that have previously commented in this thread that I should send a notification to, I can handle it.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If you tell me which members that have previously commented in this thread that I should send a notification to, I can handle it.

Based on quickly skimming through the thread I'd say that you're the only staff member who has commented here so far if that is what you mean.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Solacis @Dragonmasterxyz @Sir_Ovens @Neutralino @Maruishimaryishi @MrKerf @RatherClueless @Nelliels @Wdinatx @Stocking.exe @Mariogoods @Sans2345 @Naitodesu

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[MrKerf]

I have been summoned.

Yes? Imput needed or?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I don’t plan to touch Genshin on this site considering how divided the supporters are over what these guys rate and I just no longer have the energy or patience for countless back and forths and text walls at this point in time.

All I will say is that I am perfectly fine with using Electro attacks as real lightning and using it for calls. Whether people disagree or want to continue arguing over it is none of my concern. This will be the last time I comment on anything Genshin related here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thsnk you for the reply. Perhaps you should remove yourself from the supporters list then?

 

[MrKerf]

Against lightning speed, at least by what is presented. There should be some better scenes that would do, but I can't say for sure which now. Personally I believe it to be of such speeds, but I can see how current justifications are not convincing.
Against range, some attacks are simply different to Razor's storm.
Neutral on same element resistances, would probably be better using case by case method. Diluc is fine.
Neutral/agree on Mikage Furnace thingy. The term "safe" is very up in the air, considering we were able to live there mostly due to electrogranums, otherwise dying (but not as fast i guess, so kinda fair..?).
Agree on bows.
Side note: Eula and Chongyun aren't really a proof of same element resistance. Chongyun has special conditions with him being an anomaly, and Eula got sick in introduction video, didn't she? But they can have a general resist to cold, sure.
Also we can add cold resist to Zhongli while we here: "We should look for a place to take shelter. I'll be fine, but we don't want you catching a cold." [At Dragonspine]

 

[Naito-desu]

We already have actual cloud-to-ground lightning so I think that should have been calculated rather than the Cicin Mage, but I'll agree with speed.

Disagree on magic range. Neutral on the Elemental Resistance.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

We already have actual cloud-to-ground lightning so I think that should have been calculated rather than the Cicin Mage, but I'll agree with speed.

Disagree on magic range. Neutral on the Elemental Resistance.

In that case, a calculation with the cloud-to-ground lightning might be in order.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also, before I go, on the topic of magic range. It should vary depending on the character. At best a few meters with projectile attacks in general. (Not everyone uses projectiles in gameplay, but I'd assume for example, every Pyro user can toss a fireball).

 

[Vietthai96]

What i'm against in speed is the scan use for lighting evidences is straight out of gameplay screenshot, not cut-scene scan

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What i'm against in speed is the scan use for lighting evidences is straight out of gameplay screenshot, not cut-scene scan

Well, if you can dodge an enemy attack in the game, then that's probably something that is supposed to be dodgeable at least for the characters that we can consider to be canonically on par or above said enemy though some cases can certainly be argued to be gameplay convenience to some degree.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Seems fair
I'll try checking the story/skills of each character to see who can get resistance to their own element by basically enduring their own attacks and such


to summarized

1.) Speed​

• All characters scale to Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1798) via dodging lightning. - unclear atm / need recalc using better portrayal than what's shown atm

2.) Range​

• Bow users range changes - Accepted
• All characters that scale to Razor should have a magic range of several kilometers - Ability range should be case by case for each characters abilities / rejected

3.) RESISTANCES​

• All Vision-users resist Electricity Manipulation via resisting balethunder - more people agree than neutral
• All Vision-users should resist their respective element - Case by Case for each character/Rejected

list of characters that should resist Cold for now until a further case by case examination of each character

• Zhongli - Dragonspine Dialogue
• Eula - Cryo Allogenes and Dragonspine dialogue
• Chongyun - a special circumstance that allows him to resist cold

hope I got it all right

 

[Naito-desu]

Sekiro was allowed to use gameplay segments for scaling to lightning speed so it's fine to use them imo

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, if you can dodge an enemy attack in the game, then that's probably something that is supposed to be dodgeable at least for the characters that we can consider to be canonically on par or above said enemy though some cases can certainly be argued to be gameplay convenience to some degree.

And it contradict with cut-scene, lore????. Also what about the same attack but was scripted to hit no matter what. Gameplay always being scripted to balance thing out so you can play like a character way weaker can still damage a stronger one despite lore say otherwise, an undodgable attack in lore or cutscene can be dodge in gameplay in order for for player to play the game. So, using gameplay scan as an evidence is wrong on many level, i'm against this

Sekiro was allowed to use gameplay segments for scaling to lightning speed so it's fine to use them imo

I don't care about Sekiro, but don't bring other verse into this as an excuse to avoid debate, you should defend the reason for this rating with argument and proof

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Vietthai96 You're being too harsh now

 

[Nehz_XZX]

And it contradict with cut-scene, lore????. Also what about the same attack but was scripted to hit no matter what. Gameplay always being scripted to balance thing out so you can play like a character way weaker can still damage a stronger one despite lore say otherwise, an undodgable attack in lore or cutscene can be dodge in gameplay in order for for player to play the game. So, using gameplay scan as an evidence is wrong on many level, i'm against this


I don't care about Sekiro, but don't bring other verse into this as an excuse to avoid debate, you should defend the reason for this rating with argument and proof

If there are cutscenes or lore that explicitly contradict it, then that's something else but uncontradicted gameplay feats against opponents a character should be able to handle based on what we know should generally be fine if there are no contradictions. There are quite a number of opponents we don't really fight with in cutscenes, so we would definitely limit ourselves by a large degree if we were to completely ignore the gameplay otherwise we wouldn't even know a good chunk of their attacks and abilities.

 

[Vietthai96]

If there are cutscenes or lore that explicitly contradict it, then that's something else but uncontradicted gameplay feats against opponents a character should be able to handle based on what we know should generally be fine if there are no contradictions. There are quite a number of opponents we don't really fight with in cutscenes, so we would definitely limit ourselves by a large degree if we were to completely ignore the gameplay otherwise we wouldn't even know a good chunk of their attacks and abilities.

If one contradict that mean no for all, this game have cut-scene, thus cut-scene with lore is above all when it come to rating like ap, speed or durability. Attack and abilities on the other hand is different area, it is fine to use. But when it come to rating like speed we don't use gameplay, why, because gameplay mechanic already contradict itself, for some reason you guys cherrypicking a scene of a character dodged a supposed lighting attack, but ignore all other.

So again i'm disagree with using gameplay scan to give speed rating

 

[Naito-desu]

That's a narrow way of seeing things but whatever

 

[Vietthai96]

That's a narrow way of seeing things but whatever

Narrow huh???, then we need to expand your mind and "highball" then, like i said before, gameplay have balance mechanic except some special scripted part, and gameplay always contricted itself because the mechanic allow you to damage character normally stronger than you and you get harmed by character weaker than you for obvious reason

 

[Naito-desu]

Whatever lol, you already disagreed, I don't need to change your mind. I'm just giving my personal opinion on your way of thinking.

 

[Vietthai96]

Whatever lol, you already disagreed, I don't need to change your mind. I'm just giving my personal opinion on your way of thinking.

I'm just explain why it should be like that though, it not like i attacking you. If you think that way then i'm sorry

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If one contradict that mean no for all, this game have cut-scene, thus cut-scene with lore is above all when it come to rating like ap, speed or durability. Attack and abilities on the other hand is different area, it is fine to use. But when it come to rating like speed we don't use gameplay, why, because gameplay mechanic already contradict itself, for some reason you guys cherrypicking a scene of a character dodged a supposed lighting attack, but ignore all other.

So again i'm disagree with using gameplay scan to give speed rating

Are we talking about gameplay in one specific instance or gameplay in general? I'm talking about general cases where there are no contradictions or where what we can see is in fact supported by canon information to such a degree that there is a certain consistency.

 

[Vietthai96]

Are we talking about gameplay in one specific instance or gameplay in general? I'm talking about general cases where there are no contradictions or where what we can see is in fact supported by canon information to such a degree that there is a certain consistency

You should upload the scan with cut-scene or lore, information. Gameplay by itself mean nothing.

 

[Solacis]

You should upload the scan with cut-scene or lore, information. Gameplay by itself mean nothing.

Gameplay by itself does mean something as long as it's not contradicted by cutscenes or statements.

Disregarding all gameplay feats for no better reason than "it's just gameplay" is the same as ignoring the game devs' intent. No competent game dev is going to create a bullet-dodging mechanic in a game where characters explicitly cannot dodge bullets.

 

[Vietthai96]

Gameplay by itself does mean something as long as it's not contradicted by cutscenes or statements.

Disregarding all gameplay feats for no better reason than "it's just gameplay" is the same as ignoring the game devs' intent. No competent game dev is going to create a bullet-dodging mechanic in a game where characters explicitly cannot dodge bullets.

1. So we should high ball all of character because in gameplay they do this and that then, it is cherrypicking and wank at highest order. This game have lore, information in form of cut-scene and dialouge that mean gameplay, thus if no cutscene support this feat then no, it should not be accepted. Also remind you, in a game when you play it, you dodge and react to attack with your own reaction when controlling a character, not actually the character itself
2. Oh, this part is your own headcanon, why don't you bring developer here to explain, their intention in making a game is irrelevant here cuz most of the time, dev, author and creator hardly even know about their character power. Unless extremely case, and certainly Mihoyo is not in this case

Sorry if i sound rude to you

 

[Solacis]

1. So we should high ball all of character because in gameplay they do this and that then, it is cherrypicking and wank at highest order. This game have lore, information in form of cut-scene and dialouge that mean gameplay, thus if no cutscene support this feat then no, it should not be accepted. Also remind you, in a game when you play it, you dodge and react to attack with your own reaction when controlling a character, not actually the character itself

I already said it.

Just because something is gameplay does not mean it's automatically invalid. Gameplay is still an expression of the creators' intent.

The only time gameplay is invalid is when it is contradicted by lore or statements. In this case, it is neither, so it's valid until proven otherwise. Seriously. Read the Game Mechanics page.

 

[Vietthai96]

I already said it.

Just because something is gameplay does not mean it's automatically invalid. Gameplay is still an expression of the creators' intent.

The only time gameplay is invalid is when it is contradicted by lore or statements. In this case, it is neither, so it's valid until proven otherwise. Seriously. Read the Game Mechanics page.

So you can't defend your point and need to use the Game Mechanic page to help you, this is a bad example of debating and arguing. Anyway my point still stand, at this point it will be back and forth continuously, so i think it time to ask some staff

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You should upload the scan with cut-scene or lore, information. Gameplay by itself mean nothing.

I don't think that there are any problems with a character dodging attacks from an enemy that scales below them in terms of lore but if there is lore about them dodging attacks or other things of a similar nature, then that would be something relevant that should definitely be brought up.

1. So we should high ball all of character because in gameplay they do this and that then, it is cherrypicking and wank at highest order. This game have lore, information in form of cut-scene and dialouge that mean gameplay, thus if no cutscene support this feat then no, it should not be accepted. Also remind you, in a game when you play it, you dodge and react to attack with your own reaction when controlling a character, not actually the character itself
2. Oh, this part is your own headcanon, why don't you bring developer here to explain, their intention in making a game is irrelevant here cuz most of the time, dev, author and creator hardly even know about their character power. Unless extremely case, and certainly Mihoyo is not in this case

Sorry if i sound rude to you

Well, if we control the character in a canonical fight from the story, then it's probably reasonable to assume that the character in question can react to enemy attacks if the player can do so since they wouldn't be able to fight well otherwise. The same can probably be assumed against enemies that should by all rights and intents be below the character in question based on what we know.

The developer would probably still be aware of a number of major feats and whether or not a charater is considered strong in the story though I do agree that we cannot expect them to know things like that in-depth. That being said, I wouldn't consider their intention irrelevant since it can shed light on how a scene is supposed to be interpreted which can help at deciding a method for a calculation or if something is an outlier.

So you can't defend your point and need to use the Game Mechanic page to help you, this is a bad example of debating and arguing. Anyway my point still stand, at this point it will be back and forth continuously, so i think it time to ask some staff

Using already established pages for an argument should be perfectly valid since the information from these pages is definitely something that we are supposed to use. Solacis definitely could have elaborated about which details from that page support his position though.

"It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate."

I guess he was referring to this part?

 

[Solacis]

So you can't defend your point and need to use the Game Mechanic page to help you, this is a bad example of debating and arguing. Anyway my point still stand, at this point it will be back and forth continuously, so i think it time to ask some staff

Bruh. The Game Mechanics page literally explains how the site deals with this. You're the one stubbornly ignoring my points.

What you're basically saying is that only the foremost source of information is valid and nothing else. In a visual novel, you're saying we should ignore every visual CG showing what's happening and only care about the narration. In an old game, only the game guides are valid, and none of the gameplay and plot in the actual game. In a movie, we should only listen to the dialogue and pay zero attention to what's visually going on on-screen. That's the logic you're presenting here.

A game is a game first and foremost. If you're going to ignore anything that happens in the gameplay just because it isn't outright stated in the official lore or displayed in the cutscenes, you're ignoring 90% of the whole medium. The next thing you're going to tell me is that Genshin characters can't bleed because it's not outright stated in dialogue or blatantly displayed in a cutscene and is therefore completely invalid even though the character models have breathing animations.

What you're basically saying is that Aether can ONLY shoot small rocks when using Geo, and can ONLY create whirlwinds in his hand with Anemo, because those are the only things they've shown themselves use in cutscenes, and we're going to ignore every attack animation and in-game skill PURELY because it's gameplay. Can you even see how illogical that is?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bruh. The Game Mechanics page literally explains how the site deals with this. You're the one stubbornly ignoring my points.

What you're basically saying is that only the foremost source of information is valid and nothing else. In a visual novel, you're saying we should ignore every visual CG showing what's happening and only care about the narration. In an old game, only the game guides are valid, and none of the gameplay and plot in the actual game. In a movie, we should only listen to the dialogue and pay zero attention to what's visually going on on-screen. That's the logic you're presenting here.

A game is a game first and foremost. If you're going to ignore anything that happens in the gameplay just because it isn't outright stated in the official lore or displayed in the cutscenes, you're ignoring 90% of the whole medium. The next thing you're going to tell me is that Genshin characters can't bleed because it's not outright stated in dialogue or blatantly displayed in a cutscene and is therefore completely invalid even though the character models have breathing animations.

What you're basically saying is that Aether can ONLY shoot small rocks when using Geo, and can ONLY create whirlwinds in his hand with Anemo, because those are the only things they've shown themselves use in cutscenes, and we're going to ignore every attack animation and in-game skill PURELY because it's gameplay. Can you even see how illogical that is?

If one contradict that mean no for all, this game have cut-scene, thus cut-scene with lore is above all when it come to rating like ap, speed or durability. Attack and abilities on the other hand is different area, it is fine to use. But when it come to rating like speed we don't use gameplay, why, because gameplay mechanic already contradict itself, for some reason you guys cherrypicking a scene of a character dodged a supposed lighting attack, but ignore all other.

So again i'm disagree with using gameplay scan to give speed rating

@Solacis Vietthai96 did say that attacks and abilities are fine to use.

 

[Solacis]

Vietthai96 did say that attacks and abilities are fine to use.

The problem is that the one doing the cherrypicking here is Vietthai.

Attacks and abilities are fine, but everything else isn't... for what? Because it contradicts itself, apparently, but Vietthai hasn't mentioned a single actual contradiction. And even when there are, that doesn't immediately disqualify everything else.

 

[Vietthai96]

I say again, we don't use gameplay to give rating such as speed, ap, durability or lifting strength, etc...... the abilities part is entirely different part.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The problem is that the one doing the cherrypicking here is Vietthai.

Attacks and abilities are fine, but everything else isn't... for what? Because it contradicts itself, apparently, but Vietthai hasn't mentioned a single actual contradiction. And even when there are, that doesn't immediately disqualify everything else.

While I agree that saying that attacks and abilities are fine to use while that doesn't apply for everything else can make people think of Vietthai96's own mention of cherrypicking I do believe that he has a rationale for this that he should be allowed to explain before we jump to conclusions. Personally I'm completely fine with gameplay feats that are consistent with a character's lore. Since Jean for example easily dealt with five Ruin Guards based on her own statement I'd be perfectly fine with any gameplay feats she has against them and any opponents who would be wary about Ruin Guards.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?