General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Vondoom]

What does independent mean in this context, why does it indicate transcendence, and how are we determining that?

As the FAQ said: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.

The Void state of being is complete independent of the number of layers/Dimensions that exists in Mike Carey cosmology as stated by Lucifer morningstar, "The Void is infinite and Eternal, the portion of what can be filled in a portion of it amounts to Zero". And we know Vertigo contains Creations before and after the presence. And in one scan in the blog Antvasima posted it's stated creations rise and fall in Void. Mike Carey cosmology contains several Higher dimensional realm and construct so as Lucifer said no "matter what's filled in a portion of the Void it amounts to Zero" same way it would be "unaffected" even if creations or this constructs are removed.

Everything is here https://vsbattles.com/threads/1-a-clarification.143225/ and it has been rejected.

Nothing I state has anything to do with Kuuzo thread that's about the concept of space being 1-A.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also for a further explanation since you quoted one of the FAQs and try to “implement it”, I don't think going an infinite circling argument is worth it but
@Ultima_Reality, @DontTalkDT and @Pain_to12 have explained it.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

It's undecomposable, for a verse without infinite Dimensions you need to show that the said character is above dimensions conceptually such that adding or removing any number of dimensions won't matter to them.

Nothing I state has anything to do with Kuuzo thread that's about the concept of space being 1-A.

You are using the same argument they used, basically through “this void lacks the concept entirely but did not show any feats because it is logical”

 

[Deagonx]

Well, I have to admit, the wording of that FAQ seems to indicate what you're saying, but I can't help but think it's too vague. It seems to imply that any void beyond creation is default 1-A.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Well, I have to admit, the wording of that FAQ seems to indicate what you're saying, but I can't help but think it's too vague. It seems to imply that any void beyond creation is default 1-A.

You only need feat that adding or removing any number of dimensions won't matter to you.

Simply because you have fire manipulation, it does not mean you can burn the whole universe into ashes.

 

[Vondoom]

It seems to imply that any void beyond creation is default 1-A

Nah, Void aren't really anything though just nothingness and DC has many Void if i'm not wrong yet people don't use those to push tiers just Overvoid and The Void. I only used this to support Antvasima blog as it goes well with the FAQ and Lucifer morningstar statement.

 

[Deagonx]

I decided to ask Ultima directly as he wrote that FAQ.

He said that the description is a bit barebones and he intends to update it, but in regard to the Lucifer scan, it does not meet the criteria.

 

[Vondoom]

You only need feat that adding or removing any number of dimensions won't matter to you.

Simply because you have fire manipulation, it does not mean you can burn the whole universe into ashes.

Yes and Creation of the presence contains dimensions and they exist other creations probably with Greater, equal or lesser creation than his and Antvasima blog mentioned 2 strong characters from other creations yet all these in the Void won't matter to it as it would all be "Zero" no matter what's added it would end up being "Zero".

I decided to ask Ultima directly as he wrote that FAQ.

He said that the description is a bit barebones and he intends to update it, but in regard to the Lucifer scan, it does not meet the criteria.

Then I guess it needs to be updated then what tier would the Void be later on?

 

[Deagonx]

Then I guess it needs to be updated then what tier would the Void be later on?

The void has a clear case for a level of transcendence above creation, so it would be largely about how we tier creation/s. I'd say you can even argue two levels of transcendence as the void contains an endless amount of them.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes and Creation of the presence contains dimensions and they exist other creations probably with Greater, equal or lesser creation than his and Antvasima blog mentioned 2 strong characters from other creations yet all these in the Void won't matter to it as it would all be "Zero" no matter what's added it would end up being "Zero".

Then I guess it needs to be updated then what tier would the Void be later on?

It would not matter, not because of dimensions addition or removal, because it is void. This is vaguely taken.

 

[Vondoom]

Yeah, you can interpret it how you like sis but I only respond to knowledgeable comic fans which one stress replied.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is not how I interpret it, you need feat regardless of this all.

 

[Vondoom]

Explain how the Void needs feats, besides why am I engaging an answered discussion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Who talks about void? I am talking about the character, which is Lucifer.

 

[Antvasima]

I decided to ask Ultima directly as he wrote that FAQ.

He said that the description is a bit barebones and he intends to update it, but in regard to the Lucifer scan, it does not meet the criteria.

I am very glad to see that Ultima plans to fix this problem.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I was looking at Post-Crisis Superman's profile and noticed he didn't have Supernatural Willpower. I could've swore he did, but I don't see it there. I don't want to make a whole thread just for adding one ability, so is it fine if I suggest adding it here?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems fine, yes.

We need some examples though.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Alright, here's the justification I propose:

Pre-Death (Is stated to have almost Infinite Willpower, is considered to have will stronger than even his muscles, and increased four Green Lantern's construct's power by 20% by adding his willpower)
Post-Eradicator (Was believed by the Spectre (Hal Jordan) to have the strongest will in creation once his own will started fading, resisted Emperor Joker trying to break him with his will and faith, shut down Etrigan's magic with his will and conviction, overpowered Guy Gardner in a contest of will in an alternate timeline, withstood Gog torturing him for over 200 years, and his will can influence the flow of time)

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me, except for the alternative timeline example, as it isn't the main Superman.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I figured that might be an issue. For what it's worth, the timeline was the same as the regular Post-Crisis timeline up until Jonathan Kent died, so it still was the same character, only going through different events. I don't mind taking it out though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do the other examples seem fine to the rest of you?

 

[Vondoom]

Who talks about void? I am talking about the character, which is Lucifer.

When did I ever mention Lucifer morningstar when I was explaining about the Void to NHTkenshin, apart from how he defined it? Is something wrong with you?
Can you tag where I mentioned any statement for Lucifer morningstar? And even if I did say anything about him FYI, the wiki doesn't just use feats it also accepts statements. Literally most characters profiles are based on statement than actual feat done.

 

[Averroes1]

I decided to ask Ultima directly as he wrote that FAQ.

He said that the description is a bit barebones and he intends to update it, but in regard to the Lucifer scan, it does not meet the criteria.

Yeah i was pretty confused, there is definitely nothing that implies it being 1-A

Also, why would Elaine even scale to The Void for pushing the “absence of space" in The Void
Pretty sure that doesn't mean she pushed the entire Void
I need some clarifications

 

[Antvasima]

Also, why would Elaine even scale to The Void for pushing the “absence of space" in The Void
Pretty sure that doesn't mean she pushed the entire Void
I need some clarifications

This seems like a very good point.

 

[Vondoom]

Yeah i was pretty confused, there is definitely nothing that implies it being 1-A

Also, why would Elaine even scale to The Void for pushing the “absence of space" in The Void
Pretty sure that doesn't mean she pushed the entire Void
I need some clarifications

No one actually said anything on this but you're right, the question now is why is the Void in vertigo 1-A like the cosmology revision blog said.

 

[ImmortalDread]

When did I ever mention Lucifer morningstar when I was explaining about the Void to NHTkenshin, apart from how he defined it? Is something wrong with you?
Can you tag where I mentioned any statement for Lucifer morningstar? And even if I did say anything about him FYI, the wiki doesn't just use feats it also accepts statements. Literally most characters profiles are based on statement than actual feat done.

You were trying to scale Lucifer Morningstar in this way.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yeah i was pretty confused, there is definitely nothing that implies it being 1-A

Also, why would Elaine even scale to The Void for pushing the “absence of space" in The Void
Pretty sure that doesn't mean she pushed the entire Void
I need some clarifications

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Vondoom]

You were trying to scale Lucifer Morningstar in this way.

Tag where I did above, like I said something must be wrong with you.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I can't tag intentions. But perhaps I could be wrong about this. If so, I apologize for that.

 

[Vondoom]

Heavy sigh...apology accepted.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Alright, here's the justification I propose:

Pre-Death (Is stated to have almost Infinite Willpower, is considered to have will stronger than even his muscles, and increased four Green Lantern's construct's power by 20% by adding his willpower)
Post-Eradicator (Was believed by the Spectre (Hal Jordan) to have the strongest will in creation once his own will started fading, resisted Emperor Joker trying to break him with his will and faith, shut down Etrigan's magic with his will and conviction, overpowered Guy Gardner in a contest of will in an alternate timeline, withstood Gog torturing him for over 200 years, and his will can influence the flow of time)

Gonna bump this back up since it seems like the cosmology discussion above came to a conclusion.
If anyone needs the citations to evaluate this, I can post them.

 

[LordTracer]

If anyone needs the citations to evaluate this, I can post them.

Please do, they’d be needed to add them to his profile, after all.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Well, them being put on his profile is a given, but sure I'll post them on this thread too.

Is stated to have almost Infinite Willpower

Action Comics #585

is considered to have will stronger than even his muscles

Superman Annual #7

increased four Green Lantern's construct's power by 20% by adding his willpower

Action Comics #589

Was believed by the Spectre (Hal Jordan) to have the strongest will in creation once his own will started fading, resisted Emperor Joker trying to break him with his will and faith

Superman: The Man of Steel #105

shut down Etrigan's magic with his will and conviction,

Action Comics #762

overpowered Guy Gardner in a contest of will in an alternate timeline

Action Comics Annual #3. This one is probably the one that's the most questionable due to being an alt timeline, but I still want to see what others think before removing it.

withstood Gog torturing him for over 200 years

Action Comics #825

and his will can influence the flow of time

Superman: Man of Steel #118

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I will unlock Post-Crisis Superman's page for you to edit then.

Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Alright, I did the edit and I think I didn't make any mistakes. I didn't add the Guy thing since I didn't get much input on it, but tbh I think the justification is fine without it. I think you can close it now.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I have done so.

I had to do some cleanup work on your edits though:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Post-Crisis)?type=revision&diff=7759752&oldid=7759743

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Ah thanks, I'll keep those corrections in mind next time I edit a page.
It's kinda funny, despite somehow being on this wiki for over 6 years, I've only actually handled page edits a handful of times, so I've never really learned all the proper ways to do things.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Well, you can check my linked edits above to see how to handle short links, but you have to learn improved sentence structures on your own.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Antvasima I don't want to derail the other staff thread with this question, but are you gonna create a public thread for scaling discussion?

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima I don't want to derail the other staff thread with this question, but are you gonna create a public thread for scaling discussion?

Are you referring to scaling the cosmologies in the split?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Are you referring to scaling the cosmologies in the split?

Yap